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Rens Heijnis schoeps mode
Old 3 weeks ago
  #31
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Plush's Avatar
Talked to Rens. Just ordered another
Rens Heijnis Custom Built preamp for 60 volt mics. I already have 1 preamp of his. This one is lighter weight and running on lithium ion batteries.

Here I run 60 volt Schoeps and B & K mics.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post

Unless I am mistaken, to me it sounds like if the original Schoeps sound a tiny bit tensed, while the moded ones a bit more relaxed,
That was my impression as well
Old 3 weeks ago
  #33
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
You can hear all this here: www.savitamusic.com/mastering/mono.zip

All dry, without any processing. Forssell SMP-2 - Forssell MADA-2. I wonder if anyone hears any difference ...
I downloaded your samples. Just got a new pair of Sennheiser HD 650 headphones to use with my Grace Designs headphone amp. Headphones have about 20 hours one them -- not fully broken in yet, but I didn't want to wait any more.

I find the difference between the stock and the mod CMC6 amplifiers to be quite subtle. I found little difference with the flute and the hang. The mon however I found the modified CMC6 to be a little quicker, cleaner, bottom end more solid. It seems to do better with the complex harmonic structure. On the rammer sample it seemed to me that the modified CMC6 did a better job of pulling the attacks out of the "soup" of the instrument's sustain. Made it sound a little more "organic" for lack of a better term.

I'm surprised it's this subtle. Just means that the stock CMC6 is really pretty good.

I suspect that the bigger the challenge, the bigger the audible difference might be found. That is, bigger groups, denser harmonic structure, maybe even higher SPL, IDK.

And we on this thread could perhaps hear differences more readily with instruments we already know well, like voice or maybe piano. Again, IDK.

Thanks for posting the samples.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #34
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Plush's Avatar
I like Ivo's test

But I suggest judging in situ with real forces and not just delicate sounding instruments. As I have mentioned, one of the real differences with the RENSMOD is bass response. I'm talking about deep bass from organ or bass drum for example. Here the RENS mics are far superior to stock units. Then the real challenge is reproducing this recorded bass sound!

Also transient "push" on orchestra. Massed sound making big sound waves. The delineation of detail, transient quickness, and snappy-ness is greatly improved in the modified mics.

Sweeter treble sound with appealing extra detail is also heard.

I have already said all of these things before. You have to spend some time with the modded mics to hear their genuine benefit.

60 volts is real and even better with a RENS battery powered preamplifier.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #35
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Yes, the differences are rather subtle ... (I expected them to be a bit more obvious for the money), but they are there
Old 3 weeks ago
  #36
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JP__'s Avatar
 

I heard converter tests that were more subtle and ppl happily spend big money nevertheless.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I'm talking about deep bass from organ or bass drum for example. Here the RENS mics are far superior to stock units. Then the real challenge is reproducing this recorded bass sound!

Sweeter treble sound with appealing extra detail is also heard.
Hello Ivo,

thank you for the time and money you invested to let us be part in this.

I did do a full blind test. I used your stereo samples. I immediately found one sample more attractive for its woolly bass reponse. Then comparing the other sample, which sounded more sterile, I quickly made up my mind, and concluded, the woolly bass came from the original Schoeps design and the sterile sound from the Heijnis modification. I based my conclusions on earlier experiences with the CMC5. I knew Schoeps can sometimes be rather thick in the bass. For me it was clear I liked the Schoeps unmodified CMC6 version.

Then I looked what the samples were. The one I liked wasn't the Schoeps CMC6, but the modified Heijnis version. One can see how the mind works, this is why I insisted on blind testing.

Listening again, the modification not only gave a better bass response, also the midrange between 1k-3k was cleaner. The modded Heijnis version is sounding better, but is it worth the money and effort of using dedicated cables and powering?

Before I would conclude anything, I want to do some more research. One must take in the equation the Schoeps CMC6 has some baked in limitations in its design. Limitations to avoid practical problems in the ENG and broadcast recording environment. There is a bass roll off filter which causes phase shift, which is operational around 25hz with a roll-off of 12dB/octave. Part of the more sterile sound between 1 and 3k I suspect comes from the phase shift of this filter. Neither would I be surprised if Schoeps has somewhere at the top integrated a low-pass filter to eliminate high frequency dirt, and since I expect the Heijnis modification is lacking both filters, a reason the modded Heijnis version sounds a bit more airy in the top, and giving more bottom as Plush is mentioning.

It would be very interesting to see what happens when all these filters from the standard CMC6 are taken out and compared against the Heijnis modification. I expect when comparing such modified Schoeps CMC6 design with a modded Heijnis version, the differences will be even less.

Last edited by Adorno; 3 weeks ago at 01:55 AM.. Reason: typos
Old 1 week ago
  #38
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Earcatcher's Avatar
 

Maybe it is of anyone's interest to know that Rens Heijnis also has replacement electronics for the CMC5/6 amps, but running on 48V phantom power. My findings with these is that they output a little hotter (approx. 2.5dB) and lows are slightly more clean (less fat, better textured). The most obvious difference is in the highs: they are less "hard" and have a more subtle character. The level of the highs maybe even slightly higher, but harmonic ringing is lower. This results in a more clean, "organised", high than Schoeps' own, which appears more friendly and less excited/strident. I think it is a (subtle) improvement to the Schoeps house sound.

An afterthought: the stridency that some hear in the Mk21 is effectively suppressed with the 48V Rens mods. This difference is a lot more clear that just "subtle". The already great Mk21 becomes a stellar capsule with the new electronics: more natural and realistic.

Last edited by Earcatcher; 1 week ago at 04:29 AM.. Reason: Afterthought
Old 1 day ago
  #39
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Thread Starter
It so happened that I got the second pair of Schoeps MK2 capsules today ... Could not resist to make a real quick straightforward test - late night on few simple instruments

2 pairs of AB MK2 put as close as possible , recorded from some distance (Forssell SMP-2 to Forssell MADA-2)

I put the mics in vertical position, so it was quite uncomfortable to play on some instruments (holding them in one hand up and playing with the other hand But don't care about playing

Anyway, now you can listen (probably for the first time in the history of this planet to the straight AB samples played on one take:

Regular Schoeps bodies vs Rens Heijnis mode bodies

Do you hear any difference ? If yes, which one you like better ? a or b ? Which is which ? Is it worth it or a waste of money ? Of course, it is just as played, no processing whatsoever

You can download the samples HERE

Last edited by ISedlacek; 1 day ago at 10:16 AM..
Old 1 day ago
  #40
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Do you hear any difference? If yes, which one you like better? a or b? Which is which? Is it worth it or a waste of money?
I can hear very little difference. On any of the samples. And I can only hear what I think is a difference because I'm switching back and forth quite rapidly. I'd never know there was a difference unless I was A-B-ing them like this.

Really, I wouldn't pay any extra for what I'm hearing.

Oh, and I think A is probably my favorite on most of the instruments. I'm guessing it's the mod, but I won't be surprised if I'm wrong.
Old 1 day ago
  #41
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Tommy-boy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
I can hear very little difference. On any of the samples. And I can only hear what I think is a difference because I'm switching back and forth quite rapidly. I'd never know there was a difference unless I was A-B-ing them like this.
I'm also having a tough time telling the difference. My pref was for B, by a thin margin.

Plopped a few of these into Wavelab and did a 3D freq analysis. Looks like the "A Versions" have some very low freq rumbling going on.

-Tom
Old 1 day ago
  #42
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There's quite a difference between Sonodore 1/2" diaphragm omnis and Schoeps.
Old 1 day ago
  #43
Gear Addict
 

Ok here's how I hear it

I have no idea which is modified but the recordings sound very good. To me there are very large differences between them. I listened with a Dac right off the computer with headphones. In general "A" sounds more inner detailed, neutral and natural. "B" sounds more colorful, slightly forward and maybe a bit softer.
1a sounds more neutral and detailed.
1b is brighter and more forward but musical.
2a was less musically interesting a bit clinical.
2b more musically engaging.
3a same as 1a.
3b more musically interesting.
5a liked much better, more natural.
5b the forward color masks the transients and color variations ,it sounds too blended.
6a here I liked this much better.
6b sounds flat, the color masks the attack, and tonal variations.

Damn those Schoeps capsules are good, creates that itch to get more mic's.
My preference is "a".
Old 1 day ago
  #44
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Thread Starter
So I tried more, here you can hear more complex samples: few tones on 2 "astral" violas with sympathetic strings (normal and bass) and concert monochord.

It is a naked truth, since it is the same take, the same chain, just different bodies. There is a principal small difference - due to nature of my shockmounts, I could not get mics closer than 4-5 cm. But the recording distance was 2+ m (except monochord that was closer). Also - one pair of MK2 is 10 years old, the other (on the moded mics) brand new ...

Yet - very sincerely - as long as I know which is which, I can hear some difference When listening blind, it is more difficult and often I miss the target ... but I will listen more carefully. There seems to be a small permanent difference in a way.

In the afternoon I will record some quick duets with my son (to have some more complex soundstage) and by that I will consider this trial as over with a clear official verdict - if 1000 EUR were wasted or not

HERE are the new samples
Old 1 day ago
  #45
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JP__'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
So I tried more, here you can hear more complex samples: few tones on 2 "astral" violas with sympathetic strings (normal and bass) and concert monochord.

It is a naked truth, since it is the same take, the same chain, just different bodies. There is a principal small difference - due to nature of my shockmounts, I could not get mics closer than 4-5 cm. But the recording distance was 2+ m (except monochord that was closer). Also - one pair of MK2 is 10 years old, the other (on the moded mics) brand new ...

Yet - very sincerely - as long as I know which is which, I can hear some difference When listening blind, it is more difficult and often I miss the target ... but I will listen more carefully. There seems to be a small permanent difference in a way.

In the afternoon I will record some quick duets with my son (to have some more complex soundstage) and by that I will consider this trial as over with a clear official verdict - if 1000 EUR were wasted or not

HERE are the new samples
I just had a quick listen while working, levelmatched.
Assuming you are not playing games and A is always the same in all three files,
I prefer B in all examples; more spatially, more 3D, more grip, better transient details, more natural in my ears. A is sounding more upfront, but rather flat and with a tendency for sounding harsh. The same signature I might hear in the first mono files as well. Would be interesting to know if I just really fooled myself.
OT: I made an interesting observation again lately when experimenting with a HQ active HIFI-X-over before my passive speaker (normally I use it for my stereo subs only); all these fine details, I would name smearing, airy lowmids, depth of room etc, gets lost to a certain amount which makes it more difficult to judge those tiny differences which comes with those kind of tests. Of course this experiment isnt a general one or based on science. But it reinforces my experience with a lot of different speaker designs over the last years and in my studio and in my ears a puristic monitoring stage is much more capable to show details...
Just saying, as active speaker designs seems to be the norm nowerdays while sceptics regarding placebo effects is higher than ever....

Last edited by JP__; 1 day ago at 12:27 PM..
Old 1 day ago
  #46
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
No tricks, really ... a / b the same all the time
Old 1 day ago
  #47
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JP__'s Avatar
 

Thanks, I just ask because I mostly listened to file No. 8, but in the meantime I had a deeper listening and I stand to my opinion with all three files (which B seems to be the modded onces).

All A/B files are quite off levelwise, btw.
Old 1 day ago
  #48
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Plush's Avatar
Thank you, Ivo for these examples. I would not call them tests.

I only have 5 years experience with the Rens 60 volt modded Schoeps. In that 5 years I have noticed the most differences in bass pick up. The solidity of bass and lowest octave bass is much much better in the Rens versions. Softer and more appealing treble is also a hallmark of the Rens mods.

Since there is no real bass offered here, listeners cannot judge one of the main differences.

You'll just have to take my word for it.

So great is Rens that I ordered another Rens battery powered preamp.
Old 23 hours ago
  #49
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Thank you, Ivo for these examples. I would not call them tests.
And how would you call them ?

Cannot imagine more straightforward and revealing test than recording the same take with 2 pairs placed together as close as possible So you can hear directly how the regular Schoeps bodies sound vs moded Schoeps bodies. How more transparent and obvious it can be made ? No other way.

I decided to get that (and to invest) for the sake of an audible sound improvement over the regular Schoeps bodies.

HERE are the last two samples I made just now: Drums duet and Flute&drum duet

For those who have not downloaded the previous samples , here you have all 10 instruments together (this time also marked by the name of the used instruments):

Rammerdrum, Hang, Flute, Kantele, Metallophone, Viola, Bass Viola, Monochord, Drums, Drum&Flute Always A and B file

Download of all 10 complete AB samples: HERE


I would be really interested to know what you think and how it sounds to you (not the recordings as such - they are not too nice, mic positions not ideal etc.) , but the differences. Do you hear any difference ? If yes - what kind of ? Which do you prefer - A or B ? Which do you think are the regular bodies and which the moded bodies ? (for 1000 EUR extra + extra cables, box etc.). A or B ?

I already think something, but will still keep my feelings for myself ...
Old 23 hours ago
  #50
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Hello Ivo,
I tried to give you my compliments and appreciation for doing the recordings. I already gave my opinions and I don't do any internet mic listens.
Old 23 hours ago
  #51
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Ivo maybe you listen to each set of capsules and see if they actually are the same, maybe aging has affected one pair.
Old 22 hours ago
  #52
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Thread Starter
Well, considering that samples with different body electronics sound almost identical, I would not look for major differences between the same capsules . I just tried to swap them anyway, but they do sound the same.
Old 18 hours ago
  #53
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Ivo,

On my speakers there is a very distinct difference between the a- and b-versions and I largely agree with the findings of JP__. I was wondering why you did not use two old capsules on the left and two new on the right to eliminate any possible variances of those. Anyway, the difference is not subtle at all to my ears: b-versions are more relaxed and less upfront sounding than a-versions. The highs of the a-versions are snappier (and a bit stronger) and the stereo image of a is more rightish oriented. Could easily be a difference in capsules though.
Old 18 hours ago
  #54
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Thread Starter
I cannot merge the mics in each other, so naturally there would be always few cm difference in their placement , so one pair will be always slightly more to the right or left ...

There is no real difference in the MK2 capsules ..

I also feel there is a constant difference between A and B samples ... (although not very dramatic)
Old 13 hours ago
  #55
Gear Nut
 

There is something wrong with the right channel mic in the B sampels.
Better check that before warranty runs out!

I can only hear a slight difference in the very high- and low-end, on macbook and earbuds. B>A except on the the metallophone. Those overtones was a bit too strong in B for my ears.
Will listen more closely on proper equipment when I have time.

Thank you for taking the time to do this!
Old 7 hours ago
  #56
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Thread Starter
I hear a constant difference between A and B versions. A version is slightly softer, less tensed and when comparing the real live sound, a bit closer to it. Version B sounds tiny bit harder, with slightly more strident highs.

A = moded bodies B= regular bodies

But nothing really dramatic ... Worth it ? Probably yes ... in this level, we chase every % of improvement regardless of price
Old 6 hours ago
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post

A = moded bodies B= regular bodies
Wow, interesting. Really not the result I expected. With the first mono files I clearly prefers the modded version. But with the strings in File 7 and 8 it seems otherwise. May it due to expectations or due to the different instruments/recordings, I dont know? So it seems both are working fine and its mostly a pure taste decision. Unfortunately I have no time to do a deeper listening to all new files today which could help to complete the picture for sure.
So, I take it for what it was; a nice and relaxing minute listening to pure acoustic instruments while working on very dense pop music. Thanks for uploading.
Old 4 hours ago
  #58
Gear Nut
 

Wow, not what I expected after the previous examples.
I prefered the modified in the mono recording, but the unmodified in this stereo recording (except metallophone)
Old 9 minutes ago
  #59
Gear Addict
 

The modified bodies sound much more neutral as I said and to me the difference is easily worth the price. This puts the mic on a higher level of performance. The difference is probably greater on phones then speakers.
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