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best tracking converter
Old 9th March 2017
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
best tracking converter

Hello community!

Only need 2 channel converter for stereo classical recording (solo or small group/sonata or chamber). I have other guys for mixing and mastering, my main focus is tracking. Source, room, mics and pres are all intact, just trying to whack the pesky AD part of the chain.

So naturally I am considering mastering converters, BUT was warned of latency issues for tracking, is this true?

What do you advise on the best converter for tracking in the world?

I was considering Lynx Hilo, Lavry, Forsell, etc.
Nothing supposedly colored (like Apogee, Burl?)
Musts: Deep soundstage, transparent as oxygen 1 inch from your face, excellent bass (I heard Lynx Hilo falters in this respect, can anyone confirm?).

Thanks for your help!
Old 9th March 2017
  #2
Lives for gear
What is going to be your recording device...what is going to hold the bits that your A-D is going to be throwing at it ?

If you will simply be tracking direct to stereo, what is the concern about latency ?

Do you mean 'recording' ...where the whole event gets recorded at once. or do you mean 'tracking', as in studio, where musicians will be adding their parts afterwards to a bed track, using headphones as cue feeds ?

If you are monitoring in the same room as the event you are 'recording', you are likely to be unable to screen out the sound of the event from your headphones.

So best to be in a room next door, or down the hallway. Which will prevent the sound of 'the event' from messing with your headphone monitoring feed.

So your latency could be a few fractions of a second...or even a few seconds, it won't matter...in the context I just outlined (of ideal monitoring), latency is irrelevant. Ditto for speakers instead of headphones.

If you are 'tracking'....then yes, low latency is desirable, beyond a certain point.
Old 9th March 2017
  #3
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tourtelot's Avatar
As Mr. studer58 says, latency doesn't matter much if you are tracking. Even in the same space, latency in one in-line convertor will not be an issue.

FWIW, I am super happy with the Lynx Auroras as tracking convertors for classical music and they can be had at a (relative) bargain used. I still have one but have recently switched to the new Grace m108 package that has beautiful Grace mic pres, Grace A to D convertors and. . . .

Dante. Oh my! No goin' back now.

D.
Old 9th March 2017
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Ears View Post
Hello community!

Only need 2 channel converter for stereo classical recording (solo or small group/sonata or chamber). I have other guys for mixing and mastering, my main focus is tracking. Source, room, mics and pres are all intact, just trying to whack the pesky AD part of the chain.

So naturally I am considering mastering converters, BUT was warned of latency issues for tracking, is this true?

What do you advise on the best converter for tracking in the world?

I was considering Lynx Hilo, Lavry, Forsell, etc.
Nothing supposedly colored (like Apogee, Burl?)
Musts: Deep soundstage, transparent as oxygen 1 inch from your face, excellent bass (I heard Lynx Hilo falters in this respect, can anyone confirm?).

Thanks for your help!
If you're just looking for a transparent 2 channel ADC you can pick up the Mytek Stereo96 ADC for just under $1000. I'm quite happy with mine.
Old 9th March 2017
  #5
Gear Maniac
 
whippoorwill's Avatar
prism lyra 2, recently sold my titan to get one again, small, easy to use, connects to a computer, can connect to a recorder, can use with my Sound Devices 744T for 4/6 channels of recording if really needed, zero latency for headphone mixes and transparent and beautiful.
Old 9th March 2017
  #6
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Mytek Stereo192 ADC suits your specs. It has a very wide and deep soundstage, deep firm lows, airy highs, an almost etched out image (and is more transparent than the mentioned Stereo96 ADC). Sometimes a little too etched out for my taste, but it seems it is exactly what you are looking for. Another favorite of mine for tracking classical music: Lake People ADC F444. Very affordable and perfectly natural and smooth. The imaging is less etched out than Mytek's, which is why they are a great alternative option. Lynx Hilo is an excellent converter too for tracking, but does not have the typical Mytek imaging sharpness, or the effortless naturalness of the Lake People. It does however have a great RTA meter, which can be very informative during a recording session.
Old 9th March 2017
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
Mytek Stereo192 ADC suits your specs. It has a very wide and deep soundstage, deep firm lows, airy highs, an almost etched out image (and is more transparent than the mentioned Stereo96 ADC). Sometimes a little too etched out for my taste, but it seems it is exactly what you are looking for. Another favorite of mine for tracking classical music: Lake People ADC F444. Very affordable and perfectly natural and smooth. The imaging is less etched out than Mytek's, which is why they are a great alternative option. Lynx Hilo is an excellent converter too for tracking, but does not have the typical Mytek imaging sharpness, or the effortless naturalness of the Lake People. It does however have a great RTA meter, which can be very informative during a recording session.
And there is also the BROOKLYN ADC by Mytek, which is even better yet (around $2k), if you want to check it out.

BTW, in the Mytek 96 I configured the jumpers to bypass the Pot and it adds some additional clarity (just FYI). I'm sure you can do the same in the 192.
Old 10th March 2017
  #9
Gear Head
 

Try to find a used Weiss adc...
Old 11th March 2017
  #10
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Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Ears View Post
I was considering Lynx Hilo, Lavry, Forsell, etc.
Out of these the Forssell would be my favorit one.
And the soundstage of the Acousence is even a little deeper and wider but still natural and not exagerated.


Quote:
BUT was warned of latency issues for tracking, is this true?
As long as you don´t do overdubs latency is no issue at all.
And why should a high end AD converter have more lantency than a of the shelf unit?
Old 11th March 2017
  #11
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
Old 17th March 2017
  #12
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
The constant quest for the "wire with gain" utopia has been persuasive in a gradual shift to become more focused as a tracking engineer. The mixing and mastering side seemingly gets much glamour, though I'm always ecstatic about less post work from the front end being so solid, and inversely despised workloads from inadequate tracking. Still learning, it was harder to find info about front end in terms of conversion. I know there are ample threads on converters, but slim in respect to focus on tracking - there's measurable results for loopback tests, AD in terms of mixing or mastering thru outboard gear, but vague intel on AD at original source. Your input is most helpful!

I use the term 'tracking' as in 'front end' - broadly speaking, the 'capture' of the source, whether its in entirety and/or multiple layers of takes - the word is a little loose to interpret I admit. The quest is for ultimate capture of source.

I'm printing data to external hd via Macbook Pro, or maybe iPad if fan noise is an issue - unless there's a better alternative.

Will a 2ch AD master clocking to another 8ch AD relieve or contribute latency stress if any as opposed to a dedicated 8ch AD?

Despite the common goal of accuracy/transparency, I heard there are converter preferences dependent on genre...is one better for classical, and another for modern? Mostly I'll be in classical, though will need to do occasional sessions modern side (classical heads have a hip side to them too).

I am confident with any of these great recommendations, all renown and legendary, almost mythical 'cause its hard to get all of them in the same room. A/B-ing converters with my own ears that I've lived with is undoubtedly the best way to correctly gauge them, so rather than splitting theoretical hairs, any insights to secondary concerns in terms of tracking, like fan noise, workflow interruptions with unstable drivers, feature sets, etc.? Otherwise keep the recommendations coming, especially any A/B-ing you've personally done, thanks!
Old 17th March 2017
  #13
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
Mytek Stereo192 ADC suits your specs. It has a very wide and deep soundstage, deep firm lows, airy highs, an almost etched out image (and is more transparent than the mentioned Stereo96 ADC). Sometimes a little too etched out for my taste, but it seems it is exactly what you are looking for. Another favorite of mine for tracking classical music: Lake People ADC F444. Very affordable and perfectly natural and smooth. The imaging is less etched out than Mytek's, which is why they are a great alternative option. Lynx Hilo is an excellent converter too for tracking, but does not have the typical Mytek imaging sharpness, or the effortless naturalness of the Lake People. It does however have a great RTA meter, which can be very informative during a recording session.
I'm a fan of your work, cheers! If I could get my recordings to sound anything like yours I'd be done.

Thank you for the great comparison. Say its the quick and high Caprices on a fine Italian, does one of your recommendations suit better than the other?

I believe Schoeps tests their equipment through Lake People? Consequently I'm sporting mk2s, I am curious to reincarnate a union of these 2 "again." Too bold to say Lake People is not as picky with the room quality? I'll be recording anywhere from concert hall to living room depending on project.

Sometimes I feel the necessary omni is not as upfront as I'd like, or perhaps the Mytek can solve that?

Would you say Mytek is clinically cold and Lake People more musical? (DPA as is to Schoeps?)

Shall I dare chain match the converter?
cmc6 mk2 -> Gordon-> ___
m296 ->TM101->___
Old 17th March 2017
  #14
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Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Ears View Post
Will a 2ch AD master clocking to another 8ch AD relieve or contribute latency stress if any as opposed to a dedicated 8ch AD?
I do this all the time using a great 2 channel converter (for my main array or the solo microphones) clocking additional converters with 8 or more channels.

If you don´t use strange designs the latency can be only a few samples.

If the latency really is bigger between the master converter and the slaved ones it is easy to measure it and then you can compensate that later in the mix just by shifting tracks. Easy.



Quote:
Despite the common goal of accuracy/transparency, I heard there are converter preferences dependent on genre...is one better for classical, and another for modern? Mostly I'll be in classical, though will need to do occasional sessions modern side (classical heads have a hip side to them too).
A real great converter is good for every genre unless you are looking for a certain kind of color.
Old 17th March 2017
  #15
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Ears View Post
I'm a fan of your work, cheers! If I could get my recordings to sound anything like yours I'd be done.

Thank you for the great comparison. Say its the quick and high Caprices on a fine Italian, does one of your recommendations suit better than the other?

I believe Schoeps tests their equipment through Lake People? Consequently I'm sporting mk2s, I am curious to reincarnate a union of these 2 "again." Too bold to say Lake People is not as picky with the room quality? I'll be recording anywhere from concert hall to living room depending on project.

Sometimes I feel the necessary omni is not as upfront as I'd like, or perhaps the Mytek can solve that?

Would you say Mytek is clinically cold and Lake People more musical? (DPA as is to Schoeps?)

Shall I dare chain match the converter?
cmc6 mk2 -> Gordon-> ___
m296 ->TM101->___
Thank you for your compliments. I am usually not very satisfied with my own results, so it is nice to know someone else enjoys them.

You stated: "Deep soundstage, transparent as oxygen 1 inch from your face, excellent bass". For that idea I can only think of the Mytek. It's not clinically cold, but has a sharp transient texture and therefore sounds a little "hard" with some instruments. Generally I use it in conjunction with softening preamps, in order to avoid mushyness in the chain. But with a Gordon I would never use it as the Mytek would (over-)enhance its already pinsharp imaging. No breaking glass in my ears, please.

The Lake People converter has more subtle transients and fits their F355 preamp really well, as that model can be rather hard with Mytek. Because of the subtle transients the naturalness is more like we hear things, but only when the mic and preamp have not lost that info. With TM101's I usually link directly to the Lake People converters, especially with string instruments. M296 might however invite me to try the Mytek in this case, as it already is a very smooth mic and some bite could be desirable.

Recently I added a CC2 clock to the Lake People converter and it worked really well with it. (The Lake People has a fast locking clock which makes it very suitable for better external clocking.) Just a notch more image sharpening and linear highs extension. Perfectly controlled lows. Absolutely wonderful sound at mastering level. (I also tried the CC2 with a Mytek 8x192 ADDA, but the sound changed so much that I had to mix differently. Creepily transparent and "naked" sound. And for those who want to know: the CC2 did not bring any improvement to the Hilo with synchrolock on.)

I find both Mytek and Lake People to have a musical quality, but in a different way. For my own use I could be perfectly happy with the Lake People and CC2, as it is the most effortless, "analog" sounding combo without any coloration. But whether this is what your ears want to hear too, I cannot judge.
Old 5th April 2017
  #16
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
Thank you for your compliments. I am usually not very satisfied with my own results, so it is nice to know someone else enjoys them.

You stated: "Deep soundstage, transparent as oxygen 1 inch from your face, excellent bass". For that idea I can only think of the Mytek. It's not clinically cold, but has a sharp transient texture and therefore sounds a little "hard" with some instruments. Generally I use it in conjunction with softening preamps, in order to avoid mushyness in the chain. But with a Gordon I would never use it as the Mytek would (over-)enhance its already pinsharp imaging. No breaking glass in my ears, please.

The Lake People converter has more subtle transients and fits their F355 preamp really well, as that model can be rather hard with Mytek. Because of the subtle transients the naturalness is more like we hear things, but only when the mic and preamp have not lost that info. With TM101's I usually link directly to the Lake People converters, especially with string instruments. M296 might however invite me to try the Mytek in this case, as it already is a very smooth mic and some bite could be desirable.

Recently I added a CC2 clock to the Lake People converter and it worked really well with it. (The Lake People has a fast locking clock which makes it very suitable for better external clocking.) Just a notch more image sharpening and linear highs extension. Perfectly controlled lows. Absolutely wonderful sound at mastering level. (I also tried the CC2 with a Mytek 8x192 ADDA, but the sound changed so much that I had to mix differently. Creepily transparent and "naked" sound. And for those who want to know: the CC2 did not bring any improvement to the Hilo with synchrolock on.)

I find both Mytek and Lake People to have a musical quality, but in a different way. For my own use I could be perfectly happy with the Lake People and CC2, as it is the most effortless, "analog" sounding combo without any coloration. But whether this is what your ears want to hear too, I cannot judge.
Thanks for that! I have "pinsharp imaging" with mic and pre already. Sadly I don't really see Lake People for sale used, seems I need to order direct/dealer?

I do see Mytek 8ch for sale locally, but since I'll be location recording, how is fan noise? And Mytek 2ch 192 - I found a blue face and a black face for sale, any difference?

Speaking of clocking, I wish I had an Antelope Rubidium clock, but CC2 looks great for price.

Only "medium" sized diaphragm mic I'm familiar with is Neumann u89i. Is this similar to m296 smoothness?
Old 5th April 2017
  #17
the Grimm clock eats the Antelope clock for breakfast
Old 5th April 2017
  #18
Gear Nut
 

Forssell MADA-2.
Black Lion Audio MicroClock mk2, Sparrow mkII ADC.
Old 6th April 2017
  #19
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Ears View Post
Thanks for that! I have "pinsharp imaging" with mic and pre already. Sadly I don't really see Lake People for sale used, seems I need to order direct/dealer?
Nobody wants to sell his Lake People converter once he has it. Buy directly from the factory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Ears View Post
I do see Mytek 8ch for sale locally, but since I'll be location recording, how is fan noise? And Mytek 2ch 192 - I found a blue face and a black face for sale, any difference?
I don't bring my ADDA 8x192 to location. It gets very hot, so I won't unplug its fan. You can't have it close to mics. Mine stays in the studio.

There is no difference between the blue face and the black face ADC 192. Black is what they make now, so the blue ones are generally older.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Ears View Post
Speaking of clocking, I wish I had an Antelope Rubidium clock, but CC2 looks great for price.

Only "medium" sized diaphragm mic I'm familiar with is Neumann u89i. Is this similar to m296 smoothness?
I don't know the sound of the U89i, but for sure the M296 sounds very different as it is a pressure omni mic with a nickel membrane.
Old 6th April 2017
  #20
Gear Head
+1 Prism Lyra 2

Also +1 Apollo Twin
Old 8th April 2017
  #21
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Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Ears View Post
The constant quest for the "wire with gain" utopia has been persuasive in a gradual shift to become more focused as a tracking engineer. The mixing and mastering side seemingly gets much glamour, though I'm always ecstatic about less post work from the front end being so solid, and inversely despised workloads from inadequate tracking. Still learning, it was harder to find info about front end in terms of conversion. I know there are ample threads on converters, but slim in respect to focus on tracking
Right, what you don´t get during tracking you´l never get back. This is also my approach and I try to use the best converter not only for mix bus or for mastering but especially for tracking.

With the choice of room, microphone, position of microphone and preamp I get the sound I want. The converter has the important function to capture exactly that in the digital domain. If the space, the resolution and the musical expression of the analog feed is still there the converter does something right.

With that signal in the box the mix is always easier than with a less adequate converter.


Quote:
I am confident with any of these great recommendations, all renown and legendary, almost mythical 'cause its hard to get all of them in the same room. A/B-ing converters with my own ears that I've lived with is undoubtedly the best way to correctly gauge them, so rather than splitting theoretical hairs,
Exactly!


Quote:
any insights to secondary concerns in terms of tracking, like fan noise, workflow interruptions with unstable drivers, feature sets, etc.? Otherwise keep the recommendations coming, especially any A/B-ing you've personally done, thanks!
For less than 16 channels I take my MacBook Pro and the Metric Halo ULN-8. This has good preamps and converters already and with the Zähl power supply its even better. For the main mic array (mostly AB) I connect the Acousence arfi-adc2 via AES to the ULN-8. So the front end for tracking the main array mostly is mic > Gordon > Acousence.
The ULN-8 is then clocked via the AES signal from the Acousence which even improves the conversion of the ULN-8.
Temperature or noise is no problem in this setup. And the Gordon can be placed close to the microphone because its remote controlled.

For A/B-ing a piano and gutitar recording you may also hear in this comparison.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear...-shootout.html
Old 15th July 2017
  #22
Gear Addict
Forssell MADA-2a for clean and acoustic Instr. (Sold Orpheus for MADA-2a)

or

UA 2192 for tape/colour and "Electric" Instr. (consider to sell my B2 for another UA2192)


Both Mada-2a and 2192 are very smooth AND musical sounding!

Last edited by Simma Lugnt; 21st July 2017 at 11:06 AM..
Old 16th July 2017
  #23
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Plush's Avatar
In the listening tests here I loved what I heard from the Acousence converter. What a gorgeous sound.

I do think it is wise to invest in the latest converter technology--say units designed within the last year, since converter performance has come waaay up recently. The latest converters sound much more natural than something from 5-10 years ago.

IF you have recorded your program with a not so great converter or one that has high jitter, you can never make the program sound good ever again.


Here I am using DAD AX24 and Prism Atlas.
Old 16th July 2017
  #24
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
In the listening tests here I loved what I heard from the Acousence converter. What a gorgeous sound.

I do think it is wise to invest in the latest converter technology--say units designed within the last year, since converter performance has come waaay up recently. The latest converters sound much more natural than something from 5-10 years ago.

IF you have recorded your program with a not so great converter or one that has high jitter, you can never make the program sound good ever again.


Here I am using DAD AX24 and Prism Atlas.
I agree to have your ear out there but also disagree...as a owner of Burl B2, if it counts as a latest converter technology in "colour" AD section, i still prefer UA2192 among other users.
Interesting thing is that musicians always pick up the UA 2192 in a blind test as thiers favourite...go and figure!


I guess some designs gets timeless cos of it's musicality.


Does Atlas has the same AD/DA PCM/AKM-chip/design as the Orpheus? Of curiosity are these DAD and Atlas are recent year design?

I see your Atlas In Classifieds section. What's the new direction?

Last edited by Simma Lugnt; 16th July 2017 at 04:36 PM..
Old 16th July 2017
  #25
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Plush's Avatar
Mostly I always suggest using a transparent converter, not a coloring box converter.

DAD and Atlas are recent designs. Both are outstanding with DAD being among the top three available.

Can't agree about UA converters as these are generic and bested by miles even by a reasonable cost Mytek or RME.
Old 16th July 2017
  #26
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Earcatcher's Avatar
There has been very little development in AD-chips in the past ten/fifteen years. (There has been some real improvement of DA-chips though, so this post is not about DA-converters.) So, when we are speaking about AD-converters the differences are in the analog stage before the converter chip and the quality of the clocking. Unfortunately no really new techniques have been developed in the field of the analog stages, but there are designs that make a bigger effort to get a better signal to the chips than others. This means that AD-converters of considerable age can sound as good as very recent models and some older converters that already have a very good analog stage can be brought up to a stellar new level by adding a very good clock to them. Recently a number of affordable new clocks has come out (Mutec, Grimm CC2, Lake People DAT RS 05) employing femto clocks. There's not always a need to buy the entire package all over again, in the belief that you are buying a "new converter".
Old 16th July 2017
  #27
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
There has been very little development in AD-chips in the past ten/fifteen years. (There has been some real improvement of DA-chips though, so this post is not about DA-converters.) So, when we are speaking about AD-converters the differences are in the analog stage before the converter chip and the quality of the clocking. Unfortunately no really new techniques have been developed in the field of the analog stages, but there are designs that make a bigger effort to get a better signal to the chips than others. This means that AD-converters of considerable age can sound as good as very recent models and some older converters that already have a very good analog stage can be brought up to a stellar new level by adding a very good clock to them. Recently a number of affordable new clocks has come out (Mutec, Grimm CC2, Lake People DAT RS 05) employing femto clocks. There's not always a need to buy the entire package all over again, in the belief that you are buying a "new converter".

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Old 16th July 2017
  #28
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Plush's Avatar
No, the above is certainly not true. There have been vast improvements in a/d chips, filtering, AND in analog sections.

Where did you get the idea to say there has been little improvement?

For example, THD+N figures have improved greatly. Also dynamic range has greatly improved.
Old 16th July 2017
  #29
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deuc647's Avatar
 

Yeah i cant agree with that statement either. Read up on converter chips, you will see that all small companies have really went belly up. But the big dogs( AKM, TI, Cirrus) are still pushing the envelope when it comes to converter technology. I think the prime chip for AKM is the 5578( correct me if im wrong) which has some great spec,but its also up to the manufacturer to place the right components around the chip. I think merging uses the latest chips also.
Old 17th July 2017
  #30
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
No, the above is certainly not true. There have been vast improvements in a/d chips, filtering, AND in analog sections.

Where did you get the idea to say there has been little improvement?

For example, THD+N figures have improved greatly. Also dynamic range has greatly improved.
Here is a pretty random list of what are all considered excellent ADC's:
- Forssell MADC
- Prism ADA-8, Orpheus
- Cranesong HEDD 192 (newest version)
- RME ADI-8 QS
- Lynx Hilo
- AVID HD I/O
- Lake People F444
They have one thing in common: a Cirrus CS5381 AD chip, new on the market in 2005. The CS5381 has its filtering built in. I've had conversations with builders of the above things and they all told me there hasn't been any significant development in AD chips, compared to what this chip already could do, twelve years ago. Only if you want gimmicks such as DSD you'll need something newer. So that's where I got my idea from that converters that already had very good analog stages and excellent clocking can hardly be topped by newer products. The fight is still happening in going overboard with minute improvements of the analog stages and perfection of the clocking.

Would like to know what AD chip is being used by DAD, Atlas, Acousence and QES.
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