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Exactly What I Thought
Old 8th February 2007
  #1
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Exactly What I Thought

So I figured I'd post again, now that Timbo has gone on record saying exactly what I predicted in the last thread. He was given the demoscene song, unlabeled/credited, didn't know where it was from, and the source was pretty obscure. They didn't have time to track it down before the record release and didn't know anything about the composer or the fact that the song was copyrighted. So they decided to go ahead and release the record, and if there did turn out to be issues they would deal with them post-release.

Now they're in talks dealing with it legally according to him. He sounds a bit jaded, which he probably shouldn't be considering that it WASN'T public material in the first place, whether he knew it or not... But I guess he's irritated by all of the people exaggerating and making outrageous claims about him as a producer and person.

I think he should have done a more tactful job of explaining it though, and been more apologetic. It sounds like he's on the defensive.

Either way, he seems to be clear on the fact that he wasn't knowingly trying to rip Janne off, he just didn't know where the beat was from, and due to the obscure nature of the track, wasn't able to find out whether it was copyrighted and who composed it before the record release (and I doubt the record company would have held up the album for this).

I'm waiting to hear more info, but that's exactly what I guessed in the first place.

I wonder what the composer will get out of all this when the legal talks are over?
Old 8th February 2007
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
Now they're in talks dealing with it legally according to him.
this is not what I heard. Tempest finaly decided (I guess some good soul was genorous enough to back him up financially) to proceed with legal actions against Timbaland and his associates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
He sounds a bit jaded, which he probably shouldn't be considering that it WASN'T public material in the first place, whether he knew it or not...
exactly. that´s the CASE. there is nothing more to discuss than the point you just made. not knowing if it´s free or not still doesn´t make it free. he took the credit for the product? he is responsible for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
But I guess he's irritated by all of the people exaggerating and making outrageous claims about him as a producer and person.
there is a huge line between ethics and morals and he clearly crossed it.

morals are what you force upon people to think/do. ("Timbaland is the best. hail the king......." bla, bla, bla "People rip my music!" (sorry, but I had to laugh when I heard that! )........."I am the best there is and now I´m gonna be the best rock producer, bla, bla, bla)

now ethics are what you let people to believe is......the essence of and motivation behind your persona and actions. ("I want to change the face of commercial music" he achieved that, now not as much as Tim thinks he has, but he did................"I want to be remembered as the greatest of all time"......way to go buddy!).

he had all the time in the world to solve the problem. a couple of people would have heard of the case (lawyers) and that would be it.

he didn´t. so it all becomes a rumour, evidence shows up, the case becomes clear.
Tim still has all the time in the world to call his lawyers, send the guy some paper, make a big story out of it, visit the guy in Finnland or invite him to his studio and OFFICIALLY end the case....all taped and shown on MTV.

man, that would have been a monster publicity stunt FOR Tim.
instead, he remains silent (not really, he reminds people in every interview of what a genius he is).

ok, the case becomes really clear: we know the song was stolen, we know who was involved (and don´t give me that "I didn´t know where it came from" crybaby bull), so is there still time to bring the case to an end?

Yes, but he decides to brag AGAIN about how boring hip hop is and what a genius he is. look into his credits and tell me WHEN he dominated hip hop? Because I can remember a couple of tracks but please, whole albums? new artists? hmmm, oh yeah. Missy and Bubba.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
Either way, he seems to be clear on the fact that he wasn't knowingly trying to rip Janne off, he just didn't know where the beat was from, and due to the obscure nature of the track, wasn't able to find out whether it was copyrighted and who composed it before the record release (and I doubt the record company would have held up the album for this).
he made perfectly clear, that he didn´t know the origins of the material and.......didn´t care, because he released it anyway.

why not clear the case right away, instead of showing every possible future partner/investor what a ****ty managed company you run? a company generating millions that doesn´t even know where their tools/materials comes from? lol, sorry, but that´s ridiculous.
it all leads me to one conclusion: he´s a very moral person.

and I still wonder how in the world one of the two famous hardware units that can generate SID sounds finds it´s place in his studio and he still doesn´t know the ripped song was generated with that unit? that´s strange......but funny. heh
Old 8th February 2007
  #3
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so a sample wasn't cleared? it happens.
Old 8th February 2007
  #4
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Thread Starter
con?one -- exactly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
why not clear the case right away, instead of showing every possible future partner/investor what a ****ty managed company you run? a company generating millions that doesn´t even know where their tools/materials comes from? lol, sorry, but that´s ridiculous.
it all leads me to one conclusion: he´s a very moral person.
That's a very big statement, after 10 years of an amazing industry track record, to dismiss tim's business as "****ty managed" becuase they didn't have the source for a very obscure clip on one song... In the real world when people are making hip-hop tracks, not every sample or bit of audio comes nicely wrapped in a jewel case and properly labeled with producer, composer, and date of origin. If it's obscure enough the label can't find the origin by CD release, they *will* choose to release the album instead of holding the everything up for an unknown that in their opinion can be dealt with later.

Not everything is always as cut and dry as it seems.

And to say that, because of this one thing, that the entire operation "doesn't know where their tools materials come from?"... Not even going to address that. If you ever have a chance to be around a production environment like this, you will see how things really work. There are a million variables and every once in awhile somebody will make a mistake. Doesn't mean there is malicious intent or large-scale unadulterated negligence.

He explained it pretty simply; they didn't have a clue where it came from, and they were close to a hard deadline for the album release. Such is life.
Old 8th February 2007
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by con?one View Post
so a sample wasn't cleared? it happens.



thats what i don't get, everyone is making a huge deal out of this, but it happens fairly often.
Old 8th February 2007
  #6
AON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
They didn't have time to track it down before the record release and didn't know anything about the composer or the fact that the song was copyrighted. So they decided to go ahead and release the record, and if there did turn out to be issues they would deal with them post-release.
He sold it as a ringtone long before the Nelly record...
Old 8th February 2007
  #7
Jam
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I don't how it works for everyone else but when I sign a track over to my publisher I have to state it's unencumbered, that means no uncleared samples !

Most of the record companies I've dealt with ask this as a matter of course.

As a writer or artist with a share of the master this can seriously come back to bite you. So you do your homework.

I don't know what happened with the Timbaland thing but I find his analogy of the Casio and his reference to public domain very weird. With an included sound or pattern you know the source and therefore what you can and can't do, but he says he didn't know where it came from, that would set alarm bells ringing for me and I'm a complete amateur compared to him.

Jam

Last edited by Jam; 8th February 2007 at 09:32 PM.. Reason: Clarity
Old 8th February 2007
  #8
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i just listened to the interview. i gotta say it is amazing how non legal his argument is. he's basically saying he feels like he can sample anything that he is unclear about and then deal with it legally if need be.

i had someone call me to put a track on a compilation, but we couldn't work out a suitable arrangement. he then used the track on the cd anyway and called it a "mixtape" same mentality to me. it's not legal, but is sort of acceptable i guess. only difference is i never got paid.

probably will work out for the finnish artist in the end.
Old 8th February 2007
  #9
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It's always easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission!!

Just ask my wife!! tutt

Regards,
Bruce
Old 8th February 2007
  #10
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wish i was the one that got ripped.
Old 8th February 2007
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering View Post
It's always easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission!!

Just ask my wife!! tutt

Regards,
Bruce
lol
Old 8th February 2007
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
That's a very big statement, after 10 years of an amazing industry track record, to dismiss tim's business as "****ty managed" becuase they didn't have the source for a very obscure clip on one song...
if it was just one song man. it´s not the first time, it´s not the second......
you catch my drift, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
In the real world when people are making hip-hop tracks, not every sample or bit of audio comes nicely wrapped in a jewel case and properly labeled with producer, composer, and date of origin. If it's obscure enough the label can't find the origin by CD release, they *will* choose to release the album instead of holding the everything up for an unknown that in their opinion can be dealt with later.
unless I deal with little kids who start to make music, all of the people I deal with are passionate enough about their music (and the process) to actualy label their sources, influences, ideas and stuff like that.

to make that an excuse is a weak move. all in the light of (even if he didn´t know anything before Tempest made it public) months of time that passed before any reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
And to say that, because of this one thing, that the entire operation "doesn't know where their tools materials come from?"... Not even going to address that.
you see, I have this little habbit. unless I know something for sure, I start stating my opinionated view with "correct me if I´m wrong".
I can correct you if you want to, but I would rather ask you to research this case on your own. again, it´s not like this is the first time (which is what I read in your comment above).

this same bull**** over and over again is getting boring, that´s it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
If you ever have a chance to be around a production environment like this, you will see how things really work. There are a million variables and every once in awhile somebody will make a mistake. Doesn't mean there is malicious intent or large-scale unadulterated negligence.
the first sentence made me sad (I guess I need to work much much harder now ).
the last sentence made me think about YOUR future.

I hope you never run into a situation, where you own such an "operation", instead of just being a part of it or "only" doing work when hired, and then some jerk rips a song and doesn´t care to tell you where it´s from. will you fire him? what about your reputation? how would you react?

put yourself in Tim´s shoes for a second and please tell me: what would YOU do?. and now jump on Tempest´s side. and now take the role of Salomon.heh

I spend too much time posting. anyway, there was this "one shot samples" thread. and I actualy ended up downloading all of the samples, because some of the drum samples were really good.

so instead of telling my man to take care of it, I made seperate folders and put the samples in said folders. should I ever feel like using one of the drum samples, I will send the person the record and tell them I used their drums. probably out of respect or something. that´s what WE, music lovers do. what I have learned throughout my life is that hip hop´s essence is love for music.

and if I run into problems because the "50 cent kick" doesn´t get cleared, at least I know exactly who´s got problems heh
Old 8th February 2007
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post

so instead of telling my man to take care of it, I made seperate folders and put the samples in said folders. should I ever feel like using one of the drum samples, I will send the person the record and tell them I used their drums. probably out of respect or something. that´s what WE, music lovers do. what I have learned throughout my life is that hip hop´s essence is love for music.
Help me understand your POV on this...
so realistically, alot of hip hop producers aren't music lovers? Because realistically, one shots get used, and used... and no one gets paid a majority of the time. You are a rare breed when it comes to the topic of "one shots"...

cheers to you for your moral behaviors, but honestly, i rather not run the risk of getting 50 to 75% of my publishing swiped because of a kick drum, and someone who is equally as stingy as i am about money. Double standard? Yep. But that's the way the ashley simpson career crumbles.

Now, when i get the money to be able to afford a session drummer, or even buy myself a set of drums.. or even stack out my studio with sound modules...and drum modules... then obviously i'll have the money to be as moral as you on my projects. Until then....

Old 9th February 2007
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriscain View Post
Help me understand your POV on this...
so realistically, alot of hip hop producers aren't music lovers?
the answer is yes. unfortunatly, that´s the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kriscain View Post
Now, when i get the money to be able to afford a session drummer, or even buy myself a set of drums.. or even stack out my studio with sound modules...and drum modules... then obviously i'll have the money to be as moral as you on my projects. Until then....
a set of drums

hours of free samples. nice mixes and music

until then you shouldn´t be too lazy to use google.
there are enough people who share some of their work for free, because they choose to. doesn´t mean you shouldn´t buy their other products, but those kinda people are kind enough to help you before you can help them. simple mechanism.
Old 9th February 2007
  #15
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so all you dudes ****ting on timbo for this sample have never.......

- sampled from a movie?
- sampled from a video game?
- sampled from a soundtrack?
- sampled from tv?
- sampled from mp3s you downloaded somewhere on some part of the internet?
- gotten samples passed to you by a friend?
- sampled from another song?

i do it daily......**** a lot of my favorite records would have never been made with this sampling moral code you all seem to follow. don't know what world you all live in but check it out - jacking beats is hip hop! how many times has the funky drummer been used? where would we be today if that **** didn't happen?

give me a ****ing break. he thought he could release it, big deal.

who's to say for sure that tim's lawyers didn't contact the dude from finland and offer him a settlement that he refused - thinking he could get more in court?

without being familiar with all the details, all this speculation is worthless....

any thirstin howl fans in here? guess not, cause if you all get in an uproar over sampling who knows how you'd react to someone who boosts for a living. hahahah
Old 9th February 2007
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering View Post
It's always easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission!!

Just ask my wife!! tutt

Regards,
Bruce
true. hey bruce, great studio build photos. would love to ask you some questions about the process and materials.
Old 9th February 2007
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quincyg View Post
true. hey bruce, great studio build photos. would love to ask you some questions about the process and materials.
No prob... We just finished drywall and the contractors will be out on the19th to put in all the doors, diffusor panels, soffits and frame in the window. You can shoot me an email at pugetsoundstudios at yahoo

Regards,
Bruce
Old 9th February 2007
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering View Post
It's always easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission!!

Just ask my wife!! tutt

Regards,
Bruce
lol....good point
Old 9th February 2007
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
So I figured I'd post again, now that Timbo has gone on record saying exactly what I predicted in the last thread. He was given the demoscene song, unlabeled/credited, didn't know where it was from, and the source was pretty obscure. They didn't have time to track it down before the record release and didn't know anything about the composer or the fact that the song was copyrighted. So they decided to go ahead and release the record, and if there did turn out to be issues they would deal with them post-release.

Now they're in talks dealing with it legally according to him. He sounds a bit jaded, which he probably shouldn't be considering that it WASN'T public material in the first place, whether he knew it or not... But I guess he's irritated by all of the people exaggerating and making outrageous claims about him as a producer and person.

I think he should have done a more tactful job of explaining it though, and been more apologetic. It sounds like he's on the defensive.

Either way, he seems to be clear on the fact that he wasn't knowingly trying to rip Janne off, he just didn't know where the beat was from, and due to the obscure nature of the track, wasn't able to find out whether it was copyrighted and who composed it before the record release (and I doubt the record company would have held up the album for this).

I'm waiting to hear more info, but that's exactly what I guessed in the first place.

I wonder what the composer will get out of all this when the legal talks are over?
So What if your prediction was right! Doens't change the fact that Timbo just copied someone else's music when he could have just wrote something himself. If he wants to brag about how great a producer he is (and he should have the right to given his success ) fine-i respect alot of his work, but this blatent ripoff is just WACK!
Old 9th February 2007
  #20
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhonoquO View Post
So What if your prediction was right! Doens't change the fact that Timbo just copied someone else's music when he could have just wrote something himself.
That's called sampling; it's the foundation of hip-hop. If having to write everything was a prequisite for hip-hop tracks, we'd have to descredit 90% of producers including the founding fathers of hip-hop themselves.

It's not a blatant ripoff... He sampled it. I don't think he's claiming to have programmed it himself. He just didn't know where it was from, and so credit didn't get to the composer. That's the part that was a mistake and resulted in the situation that we have now.
Old 9th February 2007
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
That's called sampling; it's the foundation of hip-hop. If having to write everything was a prequisite for hip-hop tracks, we'd have to descredit 90% of producers including the founding fathers of hip-hop themselves.

It's not a blatant ripoff... He sampled it. I don't think he's claiming to have programmed it himself. He just didn't know where it was from, and so credit didn't get to the composer. That's the part that was a mistake and resulted in the situation that we have now.
Maybe you're misinformed or confused. This is clearly not sampling: it IS a blatant ripoff, a jack, a theft. (now he didn't clear it, it's a fact) I think sampling is cool, as long as it is either unrecognisable, or cleared.
then insulting the original writer instead of crediting him is arrogant, and morally wrong. He doesn't acknowledge the fact that the finnish guy wrote it, because then he will lose out on a lot of money. On top of that he calls him an "idiot"!? fvck that we don't need that.

That more "artists" are copying 100% someones track and don't clear that, says a lot about a scene, and doesn't make it right. that ppl. think that it's ok, because "everybody" is doing it, doesn't mean **** over here. "everybody" is not doing it here. Originality, skill, hard work for years, killer tracks and a LOT of luck get you at the top. Not being the biggest gangster. fvck that.
That he copied means he ran out of ideas and decided to go "shopping".
His talent as a writer probably evaporated. Which I think is sad, cause he was one of the greatest.
There is a lot of musicians in europe that made really good music, and they don't deserve to be ripped off -period- People are (often barely) living from their music, and worked hard to get there. This could be a very bad precedent, and nobody here is liking it much. Hence the fierce and totally justified hate.
Old 9th February 2007
  #22
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yes he sampled. didnt know where it was from, and released it.... ive done that myself... but i wont call the guy an "idiot" when he comes back looking for his money.... its amazing if he just said "man i wanted to credit the guy, but i couldnt find him" everyone would be cool.... but how you gonna start insulting the guy??
Old 9th February 2007
  #23
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7 Hz's Avatar
Yeh exactly - timbalands 'big ego' stance is bull**** on this. What an ignorant moron he is making himself into.

How hard would it have been? "Oh **** ok hands up I made a mistake, we are now working it out with the original writer." - easy!

Instead he runs his mouth and shows everyone his ignorance and narrow mind and big ego. 'Hey the guys in Finland, I'm in the USA"... AND? The USA doesn't exist by itself... international copyright and all that.

"The guys an idiot... computer game music... etc" - well if the guy is an idiot, why the hell you jack his TUNE!

BTW, this is more than sampling because IMHO he took the whole tune (melody) AND the production. Sorry, but now I am gunning for the original writer getting a 100% credit + royalties on this track.

It is one thing sampling a James Brown drum beat and stuff, and selling 500 copies, it is quite aother jacking someones whole tune and releasing it with a BIG SELLING artist.

I really hope he gets sues for millions... not for jacking the tune, but for being an ignorant a$$hole and not handling this like a grown adult and giving the guy his props.

Sad indeed.
Old 9th February 2007
  #24
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con?one's Avatar
 

some people here need to stop watching other people's money and go make a record
Old 9th February 2007
  #25
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Justice's Avatar
 

Down with the king, opens doors for new jacks like me/us!!!!

get off it and get down to making music people!

Sorry for the jack!

J
Old 9th February 2007
  #26
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PhonoquO's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
That's called sampling; it's the foundation of hip-hop. If having to write everything was a prequisite for hip-hop tracks, we'd have to descredit 90% of producers including the founding fathers of hip-hop themselves.

It's not a blatant ripoff... He sampled it. I don't think he's claiming to have programmed it himself. He just didn't know where it was from, and so credit didn't get to the composer. That's the part that was a mistake and resulted in the situation that we have now.

IT IS A BLATANT RIPOFF!!! The Greats who created the foundation for hiphop who are most respected ie: Pete Rock, Primo etc typically didn't go and jack a whole piece of music, they would find dope samples and chop them up until they're unrecognizable and make them into something they could call their own. Huge difference imo.
Old 9th February 2007
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by con?one View Post
some people here need to stop watching other people's money and go make a record
I agree we should all make our records and focus on our game, but a comment like this just shows ignorance to the type of activity that is bringing hiphop down. This isn't a personal attack on you conone. If people here in the production forum want to discuss the morality and ethics of certain production values, it will happen. Those who wish to contribute something of value should speak, and good can come from it. Timbo SHOULD catch some flak for this, especially after making rude comments towards the guy who had his music str8 up jacked. Timbo downplayed the whole matter as if it's the norm in the industry.
Old 9th February 2007
  #28
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

This thread sucks. A sample wasn't cleared... who cares.
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