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Done with hip hop beats, I'm really loving this sound instead Plugin Presets/Expansions
Old 17th July 2014
  #1
Gear Head
 

Done with hip hop beats, I'm really loving this sound instead

I'm interested in making music like the band BBNG, for anyone who doesn't know who they are they are an amazing jazz hop band from Totonto



I'm using Ableton Live 9.

So I was wondering does anyone on here make jazz using Ableton ?

What are some of the elements I should have and important pointers
Old 17th July 2014
  #2
To play jazz you need chops...Ableton won't give you those.

Important pointers would be to master an instrument and learn some jazz. There's no easy route to that unfortunately, it's the hardest genre of music to play, by far.

You could get by composing a basic chord progression and melody and then getting some actual jazz players to lay down bass and drums. The problem with jazz is that it's nearly impossible, or at least not at all efficient from a time/effort standpoint, to program a convincing jazz drumbeat and bass line, because there's too much variation.
Old 17th July 2014
  #3
Gear Nut
 
Block416's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
it's the hardest genre of music to play, by far.
These my guyz

i agree with the above post its not a overnight thing like edm or even hip hop beats
Old 17th July 2014
  #4
Lives for gear
funny question. you realize that you have to really PLAY the instruments, need to know massive about music theory and that the ones, who can only play "some jazz" have more then ten years of learning ONE instrument?

to say it the way old hippies like me are used to say it: jazz is a genre of REAL music, that you have not the slightes clue about. there you have it: the answer to the question, why EDMler, HipHopper and beatzmaker should know anything about music ... the point, where you want to make REAL music and you cant because you have no skills in nothing. you all knew it better when you started out and you knew, you knew nothing.

sorry, I am not sorry. :-) you can now do what REAL musicians do: they work.
Old 17th July 2014
  #5
Gear Head
 

what do you mean by chops ?
Old 17th July 2014
  #6
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
To play jazz you need chops...Ableton won't give you those.

.
what do you mean by chops exactly
Old 17th July 2014
  #7
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixxis View Post
I'm sure there are people that have made pretty good jazz tracks on a DAW stop trying to act like a ****ing know it all. VST's imitate the sounds of actual instruments. So if someone can play a real trumpet or a trumpet sound on a keyboard so what ? It's not like you can ****ing tell from hearing it ****bag
For one thing, if you can't hear the difference between a real person playing a real brass instrument vs a programmed vst, you are deaf. Secondly, the people in this thread telling you that you need actual musical skills and theory knowledge are not blowing smoke up your ass, you really need those skill sets. You have a ****ty attitude and need to learn when to listen to people giving you good advice.
Old 17th July 2014
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

He means chops as in the expression, knowing how to play an instrument well, not chops as in chopping a sample.
Old 17th July 2014
  #9
Gear Maniac
 

Personally I say, go head try, don t listen to people that tell u u can t do such and such. You ll find out for ureself what u can and can t do. Who knowz mayb ull learn the aforementioned skill set in the process.
Old 17th July 2014
  #10
It would be easier on you if you could just like canned sounding beatz instead - those are much easier to make - the only way someone can program music at any kind of level like that band in the clip, is if they are already a master musician who goes electronic - like squarepusher....
Old 17th July 2014
  #11
Gear Nut
 
Block416's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixxis View Post
VST's imitate the sounds of actual instruments. So if someone can play a real trumpet or a trumpet sound on a keyboard so what ? It's not like you can ****ing tell from hearing it ****bag
If someone imitated your voice could you tell?

i can admit there's some nice virtual instrumentals out there
but that's exactly what they are .VIRTUAL point blank period.
Real instrumentals have flaws and imperfections some that are pleasant to the ear that you can hear on a record
(i would hope so at least)
Old 18th July 2014
  #12
Lives for gear
 

You don't need to know a massive amount of theory to play jazz or any genre. Serious exaggeration.

As far as using sound libraries, everybody thought Drake "Over" was a sample. Check the SoundCloud demos at 8dio, Spitfire, etc. Don't blame the technology for your lack of skills in the area. That being said, I don't think it can be pulled off doing jazz. Orchestral stuff definitely.
Old 18th July 2014
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

Just learn an instrument and start playing with some people.

Shouldnt take that long.

A decade at the very most and you'd be swinging to some extent.
Old 18th July 2014
  #14
Gear Addict
 
Ave Crux's Avatar
 

You can record jazz in any DAW. Whether it be Ableton or not. To MAKE jazz, you need to start learning theory, and learn how to play an instrument proficiently.

Then you will realize when you start doing theory that jazz is at the very end of the spectrum.

Good luck.
Old 18th July 2014
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixxis View Post
I'm sure there are people that have made pretty good jazz tracks on a DAW stop trying to act like a ****ing know it all. VST's imitate the sounds of actual instruments. So if someone can play a real trumpet or a trumpet sound on a keyboard so what ? It's not like you can ****ing tell from hearing it ****bag





Old 18th July 2014
  #16
Do you have to be a master musician to program music in your DAW?

If you as a producer can't tell the difference between midi and live playing, then will your fans be able to tell?

Are you making music for other musicians or casual listeners?

Can you start making what you like now and learn as you go?

Me personally I love ableton because you can use audio to midi on loops/stems and drum patterns. Then you can see what that timing and those progressions actually look like in your DAW and make your own similar stuff and branch out from there.
Old 18th July 2014
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixxis View Post
I'm sure there are people that have made pretty good jazz tracks on a DAW stop trying to act like a ****ing know it all. VST's imitate the sounds of actual instruments. So if someone can play a real trumpet or a trumpet sound on a keyboard so what ? It's not like you can ****ing tell from hearing it ****bag
You should totally check out that other famous act Dunning and Kruger.
Old 18th July 2014
  #18
Gear Nut
 

You could grab yourself a Eigenharp, controllers wich are very expressive, a real instrument. It's like a mix between a sax and a drummmachine, you can interface it with ableton.

Expression is what jazz is all about, and the mastery of a instrument of course.

Old 18th July 2014
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Citi View Post
Do you have to be a master musician to program music in your DAW?
For jazz, I would have to say yes. The problem isn't that it's theoretically impossible to program a jazz tune in a DAW, it's that the amount of time required to make something sound convincing would be astronomical and would essentially require the the kind of talent that only comes with years of practicing the genre.

Listen to a simple jazz tune, like So What from Miles Davis, and try to imagine programming bass, drums, piano, horns, solos etc. in a DAW - even just copying it would take forever!
Old 18th July 2014
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by anstahc View Post
You don't need to know a massive amount of theory to play jazz or any genre. Serious exaggeration.

.
Playing jazz requires a massive amount of theory, in comparison with every other genre. It's probably the only genre of music that actually truly requires that to adequately play it. Even the simpler standards are much more complex than most of what's made today in terms of chord progressions, key changes etc.

It's difficult to grasp that unless you've actually jumped in and tried to play some jazz.
Old 18th July 2014
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

I believe that focusing on what u "cannot" do is the wrong way to approach this endeavour. Ofc I dont think u will b able to reproduce the sound of a live band playing good jazz music by ureself with ure cpu. I believe focusing on what u can do and working within the limitations of ure setup can lead to something that is "inspired" by jazz music. The key for me would be to find the focal point of what attracts u to that sound ie: is it the rhythms, the subtle constant changes etc.. There are hip hop "producers" out there that make complex instrumental music, that to me while mayb not fully capture a jazz purists idea of what jazz is and should b have managed to capture some of its feel and whatnot ( ok that was a horrible sentence). Anyways that's just my 2.
Old 18th July 2014
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
Playing jazz requires a massive amount of theory, in comparison with every other genre. It's probably the only genre of music that actually truly requires that to adequately play it. Even the simpler standards are much more complex than most of what's made today in terms of chord progressions, key changes etc.

It's difficult to grasp that unless you've actually jumped in and tried to play some jazz.
I have 6 years experience in a jazz ensemble, but solid attempt at schooling me. Perhaps we have conflicting definitions of the word "massive". Our bass player doesn't read music, he just plays by ear so there's exhibit A. Also kids come into 6th-7th grade never having played jazz in their entire life and somehow by the end of the school year they are making their way through a full set and getting up and doing 16 bar improvs. Even the worst players in the band do it. The OP wasn't asking to be one of the greatest jazz musicians of all time. Carry on theory nerds.
Old 18th July 2014
  #23
Lives for gear
It's possible to do some decent jazz stuff with VI's, but generally the orchy stuff like this one here works better IME...

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8069706-post121.html

those sounds are all fake (although I played them all on a keyboard with no quantize). It would be much harder to do "cool jazz" as it leans more on solo instruments and the expression more than the chords and harmonic structure.

No doubt the *guitar* solo here sounds fake as hell...In general I don't think anyone could fake these styles very well if they don't have thousands of hours of experience playing with other musicians.

As for the theory side, I've done both the music school world and the gospel church world (COGIC) school can be bookish and in church a lot of cats don't even know the names of the chords but they can play like nobodies business. In my personal opinion nerdy overthinking and over analysis of the music is what has killed (modern pedagogical) jazz...the music was better when the slang was just slang instead of the "7th mode of harmonic minor".

In any case you need to be able to play well, play by ear, and play with other people to do this style.
Old 18th July 2014
  #24
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by anstahc View Post
I have 6 years experience in a jazz ensemble, but solid attempt at schooling me. Perhaps we have conflicting definitions of the word "massive". Our bass player doesn't read music, he just plays by ear so there's exhibit A. Carry on theory nerds.
I've played with Clark Terry, Terrance Blanchard, Ron Miles, Wyntons band...Jams and at school, not professionally, but none the less. STRONGLY agree. Book nerd music theory is detrimental to at least my version(s) of *real* jazz.

EDIT: just to say if the OP needs a place to start like learning scales etc and the basic parts of theory, by all means that can accelerate the process a bit. But IMO older/real jazz is an aural tradition primarily, you can have the aural part plus the theory, but replacing the aural skills with theory=crap.

IMO Real Jazz musicians should be able to sit down with their instruments and arrange a whole song without having to say a single word other than maybe "here is what I'm playing at the a section (and then play)".
Old 18th July 2014
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by anstahc View Post
I have 6 years experience in a jazz ensemble, but solid attempt at schooling me. Perhaps we have conflicting definitions of the word "massive". Our bass player doesn't read music, he just plays by ear so there's exhibit A. Also kids come into 6th-7th grade never having played jazz in their entire life and somehow by the end of the school year they are making their way through a full set and getting up and doing 16 bar improvs. Even the worst players in the band do it. The OP wasn't asking to be one of the greatest jazz musicians of all time. Carry on theory nerds.
Are you really using junior high school vanilla jazz as your benchmark here? If that's your benchmark, then yes, anybody can play jazz and the learning curve is not that high.

I'm referring to a slightly higher caliber of jazz , the kind you hear on records, at gigs etc., not at school recitals...
Old 18th July 2014
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
I've played with Clark Terry, Terrance Blanchard, Ron Miles, Wyntons band...Jams and at school, not professionally, but none the less. STRONGLY agree. Book nerd music theory is detrimental to at least my version(s) of *real* jazz.
Music isn't like sports. There is no scoreboard, so people try to use things like theory to grandstand on and assert some type of superiority. I was first chair in district/regional bands, orchestras, and jazz ensembles 7th through 12th grade, so I find it funny whenever I argue against theory as a necessity and the responses automatically presume I'm only bashing it because I don't know anything about it. Grandstanding on theory won't make people like your music more. The greatest artists all know music is an emotional game, not a talent showcase.
Old 18th July 2014
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
Are you really using junior high school vanilla jazz as your benchmark here? If that's your benchmark, then yes, anybody can play jazz and the learning curve is not that high.

I'm referring to a slightly higher caliber of jazz , the kind you hear on records, at gigs etc., not at school recitals...
You said playing jazz requires a massive amount of theory. Don't back pedal your argument and now claim it requires a massive amount of theory to be a world class jazz musician. All I said was that it was a serious exaggeration, because it is.
Old 18th July 2014
  #28
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
Are you really using junior high school vanilla jazz as your benchmark here? If that's your benchmark, then yes, anybody can play jazz and the learning curve is not that high.

I'm referring to a slightly higher caliber of jazz , the kind you hear on records, at gigs etc., not at school recitals...
I've played literally thousands of jazz gigs from martini bars, to big outdoor festivals and everything in between. Big bands combos duos etc etc etc

If I have to choose between playing with over-music-schooled kids who geek out over every altered scale they can cram into their solo because they think makes the music cooler, or some cats who don't even know the names of the chords, but can truly *speak the language* it's a no brainer.
Old 18th July 2014
  #29
Gear Maniac
 

Not that its any of my biz, and I prob shouldn't say this, but this argument that seems to have sprouted, albeit somewhat inevitable is gonna dead this thread real quick.
Old 18th July 2014
  #30
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by anstahc View Post
Music isn't like sports. There is no scoreboard, so people try to use things like theory to grandstand on and assert some type of superiority. I was first chair in district/regional bands, orchestras, and jazz ensembles 7th through 12th grade, so I find it funny whenever I argue against theory as a necessity and the responses automatically presume I'm only bashing it because I don't know anything about it. Grandstanding on theory won't make people like your music more. The greatest artists all know music is an emotional game, not a talent showcase.
That's very true...you might want to re-read my post there tho because I'm agreeing with you 100%.
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