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Done with hip hop beats, I'm really loving this sound instead Plugin Presets/Expansions
Old 23rd July 2014
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Right-

Ultimately this just comes down to how we define music theory. Some people are defining learning to play scales chords etc by ear as a form of theory, I don't see it that way, but that is besides the point. But in anycase I think we probably mostly agree that the pedagogical, book-fed path, isn't the only path.
It's always interesting how Hip-Hop people, or B-Boys approach other things besides Hip-Hop. I think what drew many into beeing an Hip-Hop creator of any sort is that it's easily approachable, and that there aren't many stones in the way to express someones own taste of style.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #92
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
IME people who went to music school can't write music in the same way that I assume Amanda Palmer does. Not that one is better than the other, but the rote way is not bad either. I'm also guessing that you, Bennie know 100x more music theory in any colloquial since than she does...but she doesn't let that stop her from making records that people like.

Possibly she is a bad example and my assumption that she is a more rote type of artist is wrong, so insert whichever rote artist here.
I'm actually not really sure how much theory Amanda knows. She went to school for musical theater, if I'm not mistaken, and she's a rather intellectually curious person, so I suspect she knows a fair amount (she can certainly communicate in terms of keys, chords, etc when we're at the studio), but she may or may not fit your example. Not that it particularly matters.

Please note that I very much agree that music theory isn't necessary to write good music. That's every bit is foolish as believing those who have a great deal of theoretical education are at some kind of disadvantage. Frankly, I've yet to meet a musician who can read and/or has a strong grasp of theory who suffers for it. That's kind of like saying that being fluent in both English and Spanish puts you at some kind of disadvantage when communicating in either. It simply doesn't make sense.

The mere fact that you keep using the word "rote" is a bit telling: do you really think that all those with a theoretical background or mechanical or unfeeling in their writing? Seems kinda foolish, to be honest.

PS - yes, I know quite a bit of music theory, and I'm a terrible writer. But I was a terrible writer well before I started studying As a matter of fact, it's exactly my theoretical studies that make me an asset in a writing situation, as I'm able to quickly work out parts that I simply don't have the natural talent to invent by ear. It's also HUGELY useful in communicating with writers, producers, and session musicians on recording, mixing, and producing gigs. Really, there's no reason to argue against anyone learning music theory beyond some kind of insecurity in the shortcomings one's own theoretical knowledge, or some misinformed chip on the shoulder.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
Please note that I very much agree that music theory isn't necessary to write good music. That's every bit is foolish as believing those who have a great deal of theoretical education are at some kind of disadvantage. Frankly, I've yet to meet a musician who can read and/or has a strong grasp of theory who suffers for it. That's kind of like saying that being fluent in both English and Spanish puts you at some kind of disadvantage when communicating in either. It simply doesn't make sense.


I think to continue with this point, music theory really isn't a tool for writing music, it's really more the principles on how to play music, or to simply understand how people would play the music. A lot of formal teaching of music theory, you may never play a note in that class for example. I think that is a point of confusion for some who have never been introduced to music theory. The theory is not at all how to write music of a certain genre, unless you were taking some sort of writing course and they applied theory to writing.

On the flip side, as you said, theory is not necessary to write music. A good writer who never has been formally trained or has little formal education in theory, probably knows a whole lot more theory than they would think, they just don't know they know it, or don't know the terminology to describe it. If you were to learn music from listening to something, then understand the concepts someone else uses, you are using theory, you are teaching yourself theory, you just only take the parts you need. However, the more you know, the more versatile you are as a musician. If you write music, the more you understand, the more versatile you will be with writing music.


Another thing...when someone creates a new style of music that becomes popular enough to become part of formal education of music theory, that has little bearing on how much the writer considers what they are doing to be new/or different. They are rarely going to be the ones who actually create the theory about the style of music that develops from the work/writing they did. Someone comes back and interprets it, writes it down, and teaches others.

That's why I said it's ludicrous to say Jazz music doesn't have theory. I can't understand why colleges/universities teach Jazz theory if it doesn't exist. It doesn't matter how it came about, it has it's own set of principles, it's own ideals, it's own "rules" or basic foundation. Music isn't stagnant and neither is theory, one can evolve the art, or use the art and expand on it, evolving into something different.

Even classical music is still evolving. The theory with traditional classical music is pretty stagnant as it's been hundreds of years but there are still new composers who change the theory, move the "boundaries" around, take it new places, etc.

Even boom bap, sample based Hip Hop has theory. I have no clue how well documented it is but the theory is there. However, most of us learned from listening to others, learning from others, and I bet not one current Hip Hop producer learned how to make this music from formal classes on Hip Hop music theory. We will see Hip Hop theory in colleges at some point, I can guarantee that, and I also will guarantee that it will be way more in depth than any of us would really consider it to be, because we make it, we don't think of all the minor things we do. I hope that makes sense, I complained about this getting off topic but I think one must understand that theory, music or elsewhere, is not only constantly evolving, it's only as exact as the music is. Theory changes over time, be it art, science, math, philosophy etc. On that note, I personally feel that theory is much more like philosophy than history, though you can't avoid the history in theory, that is just part of it.
Old 24th July 2014
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
funny question. you realize that you have to really PLAY the instruments, need to know massive about music theory and that the ones, who can only play "some jazz" have more then ten years of learning ONE instrument?

to say it the way old hippies like me are used to say it: jazz is a genre of REAL music, that you have not the slightes clue about. there you have it: the answer to the question, why EDMler, HipHopper and beatzmaker should know anything about music ... the point, where you want to make REAL music and you cant because you have no skills in nothing. you all knew it better when you started out and you knew, you knew nothing.

sorry, I am not sorry. :-) you can now do what REAL musicians do: they work.

<DELETED BY MODERATOR> Is there a point to giving someone advice if you are simultaneously demoralizing them in the process?

Old 24th July 2014
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
Please note that I very much agree that music theory isn't necessary to write good music. That's every bit is foolish as believing those who have a great deal of theoretical education are at some kind of disadvantage. Frankly, I've yet to meet a musician who can read and/or has a strong grasp of theory who suffers for it. That's kind of like saying that being fluent in both English and Spanish puts you at some kind of disadvantage when communicating in either. It simply doesn't make sense.
Yeah man I don't think we are really disagreeing. I personally don't *love it* when a kid wants to make groove jazz and the response is "well you 10,000 hrs of flight time before you can even think about it", which you were never saying, but some others here seem to suggest that.

But for the sake of discussion, this is what I find interesting with myself. If I memorize a piece of music from the chart, it's easily forgotten. If I learn it by ear, I will likely remember it for years if not for the rest of my life.

And when I go to sit down at the keys to recall that piece of music my interaction with it is fundamentally different. If I transpose the one I learned by ear, I will do the transposition by ear, vs doing a mechanical transposition. I will likely remember many elements of the song I learned by ear (even background vocal harmonies will pop into my head, bass lines, exact drum fills etc). And ultimately I'll be able to play the ear learned one better.

I'm no neuroscientist, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that one of these two paths is exercising the primary auditory cortex a lot more than the other.

While in many ways I would agree that I don't know many schooled musicians who "suffer" because of that background, but as a whole I do think a lot of schooled musicians have a more difficult time reaching artistic satori. Don't get me wrong, a lot of unschooled musicians hit artistic satori (by themselves) by playing 2 chords...

Same reason here why it is so hard for people with a strictly classical background to learn to improvise. Of course all these things are not mutually exclusive...however people do approach what the will do today by using the background they have laid for themselves.

But also no argument on the PS, I get a lot of clients because I can set auto-tune to the right key (let alone edit songs in 7/8 etc).
Old 24th July 2014
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
I think to continue with this point, music theory really isn't a tool for writing music, it's really more the principles on how to play music, or to simply understand how people would play the music.
Sure no doubt-

But any aspect of (bookish) theory tends to suggest (and coerce) things without realizing it. Songs are made of *chords* chords are made from *triads* triads are built on scales. Now you sit to make music and you WILL make a song using those things. All of that is very wrong if you want to make EG a trap beat (which rarely have chords at all).

Another example, every kid who starts to study jazz theory, almost always goes through a phase where they believe (very deeply) that 7th chords are artistically superior to triads and 9ths to 7ths and dom7#11 to 9ths etc.

So much so that a lot of these cats can never get out of it. They hear a song on the radio and scoff at it only having 4 chords...nevermind that "So What" only has (essentially) 2 chords (or 4 I guess depending on how you look at it).

But more importantly it's easy to get lost in all this and to loose sight of what matters. Having a big musical vocab is just like having a big vocab in english, just because someone knows big words doesn't mean what they have to say is interesting or good.

Would the "I have a dream" speech be *better* if it was crammed full of big words? Or even just a great movie etc...

I don't think so. But go watch a group of college jazz combos and they are basically saying things like "ostensible pentasyllabic parentheticals systemize isomorphic transactions"

Eh...Ok...put down the big words and talk to me...Of course I'm being a bit hyperbolic.
Old 24th July 2014
  #97
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Vic makes the point I'm trying to make a lot better than I am:

Old 24th July 2014
  #98
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
I don't think so. But go watch a group of college jazz combos and they are basically saying things like "ostensible pentasyllabic parentheticals systemize isomorphic transactions"


Sounds like some anticon backpacker hip hop or something.
Old 24th July 2014
  #99
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Sure no doubt-

But any aspect of (bookish) theory tends to suggest (and coerce) things without realizing it. Songs are made of *chords* chords are made from *triads* triads are built on scales. Now you sit to make music and you WILL make a song using those things. All of that is very wrong if you want to make EG a trap beat (which rarely have chords at all).

Another example, every kid who starts to study jazz theory, almost always goes through a phase where they believe (very deeply) that 7th chords are artistically superior to triads and 9ths to 7ths and dom7#11 to 9ths etc.

So much so that a lot of these cats can never get out of it. They hear a song on the radio and scoff at it only having 4 chords...nevermind that "So What" only has (essentially) 2 chords (or 4 I guess depending on how you look at it).

But more importantly it's easy to get lost in all this and to loose sight of what matters. Having a big musical vocab is just like having a big vocab in english, just because someone knows big words doesn't mean what they have to say is interesting or good.

Would the "I have a dream" speech be *better* if it was crammed full of big words? Or even just a great movie etc...

I don't think so. But go watch a group of college jazz combos and they are basically saying things like "ostensible pentasyllabic parentheticals systemize isomorphic transactions"

Eh...Ok...put down the big words and talk to me...Of course I'm being a bit hyperbolic.
yes, you are being hyperbolic, not to mention short-sighted and being a musical Luddite...

not every music is created from triads; Ornette Coleman's music for one, much of Coltrane's post 60's music, a lot of modern classical music post Schoenberg, many non-western music, just too numerous to mention, etc...

You seem very hung up on your set of specificities to pass your litmus test as to what is valid in terms of musical expression...that's your prerogative, but it's a very limited set of criteria to base all the myriad music that exists this day and age.

It's like what Duke Ellington said: there are two kinds of music - good and bad. As to what constitutes good and bad, well that's almost an infinite subjective swath...your's seems very very limited imho (though I'm sure I probably will concur on a majority of what you'd like, I for one am glad my palette is broad, and inclusive of much more than what you appear to champion, and without prejudice or ridiculous preconceptions...
Old 25th July 2014
  #100
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I think the drummer is awesome !!!!


denlig
Old 25th July 2014
  #101
Its good that the OP is trying to get outside of his box.

Jazz is very hard to jump into and you will need to work at it to be good. But if you are committed there is hope.

Are you ready?
Old 25th July 2014
  #102
Quote:
Originally Posted by denlig View Post
I think the drummer is awesome !!!!


denlig
I actually thought the drummer was the weak link. Not to say he wasn't good (certainly a helluva lot better than me!), but I thought his time was a bit sloppy.

Different strokes, I suppose.
Old 25th July 2014
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
I actually thought the drummer was the weak link. Not to say he wasn't good (certainly a helluva lot better than me!), but I thought his time was a bit sloppy.

Different strokes, I suppose.
the whole group - meh, hacks at best...sorry to be harsh...

Just to mention a few to check out: Esbjörn Svensson Trio, Brad Mehldau, Medeski Martin & Wood, Avishai Cohen, The Bad Plus , Vijay Iyer, etc...

if you want to get deep and serious: Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Keith Jarrett, Benny Green, Kenny Barron, Monty Alexander, Gonzalo Rubalcaba, etc...

go deeper: Phineas Newborn, Tommy Flanagan, Barry Harris, Oscar Peterson, Sonny Clark, Horace Silver, Art Tatum, Red Garland, Bill Evans, Horace Parlan, Herbie Nichols, Thelonious Monk, Hank Jones, Jaki Byard, Bud Powell, Hampton Hawes, etc...

there's no shortage of out of the world jazz trios..
Old 25th July 2014
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
yes, you are being hyperbolic, not to mention short-sighted and being a musical Luddite...

not every music is created from triads; Ornette Coleman's music for one, much of Coltrane's post 60's music, a lot of modern classical music post Schoenberg, many non-western music, just too numerous to mention, etc...

You seem very hung up on your set of specificities to pass your litmus test as to what is valid in terms of musical expression...that's your prerogative, but it's a very limited set of criteria to base all the myriad music that exists this day and age.

It's like what Duke Ellington said: there are two kinds of music - good and bad. As to what constitutes good and bad, well that's almost an infinite subjective swath...your's seems very very limited imho (though I'm sure I probably will concur on a majority of what you'd like, I for one am glad my palette is broad, and inclusive of much more than what you appear to champion, and without prejudice or ridiculous preconceptions...
Hey man I apologize if I have offended you so much. Honestly I think I'm just doing a bad job of explaining myself.

I think ultimately my perspective is just that there is a considerable aspect of modern pedagogical music programs that are mostly feeding themselves. IE in many cases the best students of many modern jazz programs become the future teachers of them. Even a Bad+ concert is a vast majority audience that is either in, or already has a college music degree (que everyone insert earplugs...now lol).

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, professional ethicists or anthropologists are also mostly academics. I went to music school, got a bit sucked into that lane, it's not something I regret and have been to many shows and own many of the records of the artists you mention (and know many of their songs, and have even opened for some of them- Scofield and MMW).

All of that is all good, and there is truly great music that comes from it...but it certainly is not the only path through the music world, and it's more than fair to point that out.

Realistically it sounds like the OP want's to make electronically produced smooth jazz here. That's his prerogative and it doesn't seem to me like music school or Mark Levine etc are really the only or even best avenue for him considering this goal.

If you consider his posted goal to be "hacks", then it seems fairly obvious there is a disconnect here.
Old 25th July 2014
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Hey man I apologize if I have offended you so much. Honestly I think I'm just doing a bad job of explaining myself.
.
.
.
If you consider his posted goal to be "hacks", then it seems fairly obvious there is a disconnect here.
Hey man, not offended in the least...it's all good...

As far as those dudes in the OP's post...well, no disconnect either, just telling it as it is - they're just not very good, again it is not my intent to be harsh, just being honest...
Old 26th July 2014
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Hey man, not offended in the least...it's all good...

As far as those dudes in the OP's post...well, no disconnect either, just telling it as it is - they're just not very good, again it is not my intent to be harsh, just being honest...
Kinda ridiculas that statement on the hiphop/rap production forum.So much music happening in that jam compared to lil loops done on drum boxes and sw usually with modern Hh!!!Might not be your taste but its live and well played/presented.
Old 26th July 2014
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs View Post
Kinda ridiculas that statement on the hiphop/rap production forum.So much music happening in that jam compared to lil loops done on drum boxes and sw usually with modern Hh!!!Might not be your taste but its live and well played/presented.
fair enough, and I agree you...

respect and peace
Old 26th July 2014
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs View Post
Kinda ridiculas that statement on the hiphop/rap production forum.So much music happening in that jam compared to lil loops done on drum boxes and sw usually with modern Hh!!!Might not be your taste but its live and well played/presented.
+1. And just because something is simplistic in it's nature doesn't mean it's easy to do at a high level. The best sample based producers are the best sample based producers just as not many (any?) bass players can do what familyman can do as well as he can do it.

I know a lot of Jazzers/academics who seem to think that if they decide to breathe in the direction of HH, everyone should fall to their knees. Not only is it snobby, but usually their HH sucks. They don't *get* what makes good HH and refuse to accept the challenge that *that* is, and then become bitter when the world "just doesn't get it".

What they are missing is that it's not the world that *isn't getting it*.
Old 26th July 2014
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
I know a lot of Jazzers/academics who seem to think that if they decide to breathe in the direction of HH, everyone should fall to their knees. Not only is it snobby, but usually their HH sucks. They don't *get* what makes good HH and refuse to accept the challenge that *that* is, and then become bitter when the world "just doesn't get it".
clearly, anyone who professes that view are idiots...every respective genre or idiom should be respected for their own merit and aesthetic, and it is arrogant and foolhardy to think one can 'swoop' in create things on equal par without fully understanding everything that is there...

that said, hip-hop is a very broad generalization, in much the same sense jazz is...there are so many different things that could fall under that rubric, if anything they all fall under under the continuum of the African/American music diaspora, that's the common bond...
Old 26th July 2014
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs View Post
Kinda ridiculas that statement on the hiphop/rap production forum.So much music happening in that jam compared to lil loops done on drum boxes and sw usually with modern Hh!!!Might not be your taste but its live and well played/presented.
To me, that reads as such..."because the fact you make Hip Hop or associate yourself with it by posting on this internet forum, it is ridiculous for you to form an opinion on what music you enjoy or not, as the music you enjoy is not advanced enough to understand what you may or may not like".

I thought they were OK, not great. I would enjoy seeing them, I wouldn't go out of my way. I have personally seen better myself. Funny because almost every Hip Hop producer I know that is really dope, especially those who sample are really opened minded and fairly educated on music outside the genre, to some extent you have to be.

Sorry, not trying to single you out, I just find that mentality to be strange, especially when one is judging the cat who has like 10,000 records as not understanding music.
Old 27th July 2014
  #111
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But all you need is fl studio(preferably cracked version]to make hiphop!!!!!!!!!!!!!Joking aside im sure everybody knows what im getting at.I just think its cool that young (and old) people can get together and jam.
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