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Done with hip hop beats, I'm really loving this sound instead Plugin Presets/Expansions
Old 18th July 2014
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by anstahc View Post
Music isn't like sports. There is no scoreboard, so people try to use things like theory to grandstand on and assert some type of superiority. I was first chair in district/regional bands, orchestras, and jazz ensembles 7th through 12th grade, so I find it funny whenever I argue against theory as a necessity and the responses automatically presume I'm only bashing it because I don't know anything about it. Grandstanding on theory won't make people like your music more. The greatest artists all know music is an emotional game, not a talent showcase.
Stating that theory is important to learning jazz isn't controversial or elitist. Some players in history played by ear, Django for example, but they are a very small minority. Most jazz players a have complete mastery of their instruments. It's pretty hard to improvise a solo over a jazz tune if you don't know exactly what is going on. This should be even more obvious for those with any experience with jazz music... seriously people.
Old 18th July 2014
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
If I have to choose between playing with over-music-schooled kids who geek out over every altered scale they can cram into their solo because they think makes the music cooler, or some cats who don't even know the names of the chords, but can truly *speak the language* it's a no brainer.
Absolutely. Being able to play without any academic knowledge is MORE of a sign that you have a natural ear and talent for it IMO. If you have the instincts to get the job done, then that's all you need. Theory is just supplemental. If you don't have the instincts, then take the academic route. As long as you make music that captivates people. The guy that studied and got an A is no more superior to the guy that also got an A without studying.
Old 18th July 2014
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
I've played literally thousands of jazz gigs from martini bars, to big outdoor festivals and everything in between. Big bands combos duos etc etc etc

If I have to choose between playing with over-music-schooled kids who geek out over every altered scale they can cram into their solo because they think makes the music cooler, or some cats who don't even know the names of the chords, but can truly *speak the language* it's a no brainer.
Well if that's the only choice then anyone would choose the later...false dichotomy. Good jazz players have both those qualities. Out of curiosity, how many gigging jazz musicians did you play with that didn't know the names of chords...
Old 18th July 2014
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
Stating that theory is important to learning jazz isn't controversial or elitist.
Honestly man re-read how this argument transpired. You did not state theory is important. You said it was required. Then you changed it to required to be one of the best. Then you changed it to important for learning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anstahc View Post
You don't need to know a massive amount of theory to play jazz or any genre. Serious exaggeration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
Playing jazz requires a massive amount of theory, in comparison with every other genre.

It's difficult to grasp that unless you've actually jumped in and tried to play some jazz.
That last sentence was the elitist part, considering there are at least 2 people in this thread with years of jazz experience arguing against your point.
Old 18th July 2014
  #35
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lol Jazz definitely doesn't require a great amount of theory....my god.. that it DOES was the most uninformed statement ever...

Especially the Hard Bop and Free ****. Heavy on the improv..a lot of it totally atonal too
Old 18th July 2014
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
Well if that's the only choice then anyone would choose the later...false dichotomy. Good jazz players have both those qualities. Out of curiosity, how many gigging jazz musicians did you play with that didn't know the names of chords...
In the gospel world, LOTS, and lots of KILLER players with huge vocabularies that extend well beyond what you can find in any book. And when you see how strong their ears are it makes you hit the woodshed.
Old 18th July 2014
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anstahc View Post
Absolutely. Being able to play without any academic knowledge is MORE of a sign that you have a natural ear and talent for it IMO.
And/or you earned it. Anyone can learn ii-V-I analysis, taking the time to learn to find the key centers by ear is a heck of a lot more work. But IMO the results are worth it.

Still stand by the theory is optional, the aural skills are not.
Old 18th July 2014
  #38
Gospel??? I thought we were talking about JAZZ...you know, Miles, Parker, Dizzy, Coltrane, Mehldau, Rosenwinkel, Scofield etc.

This is clearly some sort of Twilight Zone Thread... I'll leave you guys with all your theory-free jazz playing - good luck with all of that. Let me know when you've figured out a way to blaze a solo over Giant Steps with your feelings.

Reverb out.
Old 18th July 2014
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
Let me know when you've figured out a way to blaze a solo over Giant Steps with your feelings.
Will do. Let us know when you build a fanbase of chord progression counters.
Old 18th July 2014
  #40
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Jazz is zzzzzzzzzz...
Old 18th July 2014
  #41
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Just watching some parts in the video, I think it would be fairly possible to get a similar sound with virtual instruments. I mean, 1/3 of it is keyboard to begin with, it's going to be hard to tell me you can get convincing keyboard sounds in a DAW. Drums, many can actually play a drum machine or even program drums that well, it's doable there too. The bass, it may be hard to be that expressive with many patches but that doesn't mean you can't make music that sounds similar enough, I could also see a synth bass being just as interesting, while giving you some separation from a style aspect.

The thing is, especially with the drums, at what point is it going to be easier to learn how to play drums, rather than using some digital means instead? The other thing to consider, going from Hip Hop, assuming you do want the live feel is getting away from loop based music. To get that effect, you will likely need to either play the whole song, or do substantially longer loops, like 16, 24, or 32, depending on how the song is structured, plus adding room to do some improvised/solo parts. Lastly, you likely want to be at least as good on the keys as the person you want to sound like. I still think it's doable.
Old 18th July 2014
  #42
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Fender Clean full range in Trilian = that bass sound
Old 18th July 2014
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Lo View Post
lol Jazz definitely doesn't require a great amount of theory....my god.. that it DOES was the most uninformed statement ever...

Especially the Hard Bop and Free ****. Heavy on the improv..a lot of it totally atonal too


Hard bop is heavily theory-based (as is all jazz). What kinda hard bop are you talking about?

Anywho, telling this kid he needs to learn theory is missing the bigger point: whether a good jazz musician knows theory by study or not, he/she certainly knows it innately. And more importantly, he/she has spent tens upon tens of thousands of hours learning their instrument. For the kid to think he can whip up some VIs and sequence something like that is almost hilariously naive. Frankly, anyone who knows so little about the basics of the style of music they're looking to emulate doesn't stand a chance of doing it convincingly. That's true whether it's something as simple as a three-chord punk rock song, or something as complex as a mid/late-60s Wayne Shorter tune.
Old 18th July 2014
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
Let me know when you've figured out a way to blaze a solo over Giant Steps with your feelings.
Old 18th July 2014
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post


Hard bop is heavily theory-based (as is all jazz). What kinda hard bop are you talking about?

Anywho, telling this kid he needs to learn theory is missing the bigger point: whether a good jazz musician knows theory by study or not, he/she certainly knows it innately. And more importantly, he/she has spent tens upon tens of thousands of hours learning their instrument. For the kid to think he can whip up some VIs and sequence something like that is almost hilariously naive. Frankly, anyone who knows so little about the basics of the style of music they're looking to emulate doesn't stand a chance of doing it convincingly. That's true whether it's something as simple as a three-chord punk rock song, or something as complex as a mid/late-60s Wayne Shorter tune.
Well said...
Old 18th July 2014
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post


Hard bop is heavily theory-based (as is all jazz). What kinda hard bop are you talking about?

Anywho, telling this kid he needs to learn theory is missing the bigger point: whether a good jazz musician knows theory by study or not, he/she certainly knows it innately. And more importantly, he/she has spent tens upon tens of thousands of hours learning their instrument. For the kid to think he can whip up some VIs and sequence something like that is almost hilariously naive. Frankly, anyone who knows so little about the basics of the style of music they're looking to emulate doesn't stand a chance of doing it convincingly. That's true whether it's something as simple as a three-chord punk rock song, or something as complex as a mid/late-60s Wayne Shorter tune.
Well said...
Old 18th July 2014
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
Let me know when you've figured out a way to blaze a solo over Giant Steps with your feelings.

Reverb out.
Why is GS the holy grail?

Jesus...all it is is ii-V-I's outlining an augmented chord...

It's harder to play Trane's Body&Soul, Satellite or 26-2 convincingly IMHO.
Old 18th July 2014
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Why is GS the holy grail?

Jesus...all it is is ii-V-I's outlining an augmented chord...

It's harder to play Trane's Body&Soul, Satellite or 26-2 convincingly IMHO.
Harder still is some of the super harmonically-simple modal stuff. I've heard plenty of jazzers rip killer solos over all those songs, including Giant Steps. In a way, it's the jazz equivalent to the heavy metal "shred" solo. Kind of Blue or even Maiden Voyage...? Not so much.
Old 18th July 2014
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
Harder still is some of the super harmonically-simple modal stuff. I've heard plenty of jazzers rip killer solos over all those songs, including Giant Steps. In a way, it's the jazz equivalent to the heavy metal "shred" solo. Kind of Blue or even Maiden Voyage...? Not so much.
It depends on the player...if all they're into is bop and straight ahead they'll probably be lacking in imagination for forays into modal territory.

Being as it may, any modern jazz musician should be equipped for 60's Coltrane style modal styles, as well as free form funk/rock of early 70's Miles, World Music which by in large is modal, rock, funk, free jazz, etc...

It all comes down to being a good musician, having good ears and an open mind.
Old 18th July 2014
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
It depends on the player...if all they're into is bop and straight ahead they'll probably be lacking in imagination for forays into modal territory.

Being as it may, any modern jazz musician should be equipped for 60's Coltrane style modal styles, as well as free form funk/rock of early 70's Miles, World Music which by in large is modal, rock, funk, free jazz, etc...

It all comes down to being a good musician, having good ears and an open mind.
Obviously, the more well-rounded the player, the better they'll play. That's true of any genre. But like I said, shredding rapid-fire chord changes over a tune like Giant Steps will sound impressive to most anyone who listens to it. Even the muso nerds will respect the soloing in a technical capacity. On the other hand, it's a rare player indeed who can maintain enough melodic interest over a one- or two-chord modal progression to impress the farther ends of the listening spectrum (that is, total laymen who simply wanna hear a good melody, and the super-nerds like me who were raised on this kinda stuff).
Old 19th July 2014
  #51
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Get some instruments-drums,guitar,woodwind ect (cheap if you look around)a keyboard controller and maybe some drum midi pads all connected to ableton.And start sequencing and layering,living and breathing sound and vibe while listening to lots of vinyl and playing along ect.Dont forget-"if you dont live it,you cant play it"..Theory is a wonderful thing but dont get caught up with it.It could suck the soul out of the 'music!!!.

A lot of these 'jazzers' are just plain annoying.lol

This is good food for the electroniq artist-



Old 20th July 2014
  #52
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Anyone who honestly believes that any of the old school heavy jazz cats had access to a formal music theory education is sadly delirious about history. For every Miles and Herbie there were many George Shearing's (who had to unlearn what they *knew*), not to mention the Wes Montgomery's and Horace Silver's.

This anglocentric reconstructionist version of music history is shameful...

Berklee cats who think that Jazz was born from books need not apply...if someone cant hear the musical difference between book smarts and street smarts, what they really don't *get* extends far beyond jazz.
Old 20th July 2014
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
Gospel??? I thought we were talking about JAZZ...you know, Miles, Parker, Dizzy, Coltrane, Mehldau, Rosenwinkel, Scofield etc.

This is clearly some sort of Twilight Zone Thread... I'll leave you guys with all your theory-free jazz playing - good luck with all of that. Let me know when you've figured out a way to blaze a solo over Giant Steps with your feelings.

Reverb out.
Other than the tempo giant steps is easy, try herbies "tell me a bedtime story"...but as always the best classical players will play by feel/ear as well as the best jazz or any other genre. IE Horowitz versions of Chopin are improvisational...check out his fantasie impromptu vs the chart.

Horowitz was famous for not really practicing, he just played his version of what he *felt*...as did beethoven (who discovered the *blue note* 150ys before robert johnson, and the parker b9#9 thing- tempest sonata 3rd movement).
Old 20th July 2014
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Anyone who honestly believes that any of the old school heavy jazz cats had access to a formal music theory education is sadly delirious about history. For every Miles and Herbie there were many George Shearing's (who had to unlearn what they *knew*), not to mention the Wes Montgomery's and Horace Silver's.

This anglocentric reconstructionist version of music history is shameful...

Berklee cats who think that Jazz was born from books need not apply...if someone cant hear the musical difference between book smarts and street smarts, what they really don't *get* extends far beyond jazz.
Knowing theory and having a formal education can be mutually exclusive, but otoh need not be also...I don't see what your point is?

Bottom line is, either you can play or you can't...the unfortunate thing is the lack of jam sessions that the old cats had to cut their teeth by are no longer commonplace, and by in large replaced by Aebersold - which is no substitute...
Old 20th July 2014
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Other than the tempo giant steps is easy, try herbies "tell me a bedtime story"...but as always the best classical players will play by feel/ear as well as the best jazz or any other genre. IE Horowitz versions of Chopin are improvisational...check out his fantasie impromptu vs the chart.
Tell Me a Bedtime Story isn't necessarily harder than than GS harmonically, what makes that tune unique is that rhythmically the chords are placed in unusual ways.

Giant Steps is hard to play well, because of its symmetrical nature people tend to play it very mechanically, as Trane even did early on. If you listen to late Trane he incorporates similar concepts in much deeper ways - check out Venus from Interstellar Space - chock full of Coltrane third relations.

A master like Joe Henderson could rip through GS like no one else - he could weave melodically in and out and around it like hot knife through butter...the majority make it seem like an étude...
Old 20th July 2014
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Tell Me a Bedtime Story isn't necessarily harder than than GS harmonically, what makes that tune unique is that rhythmically the chords are placed in unusual ways
Re-analyse those chords...it's a perfect example of why *music theory* is stupid and useless.

An even better example is one of the most famous pieces of music ever in the first mvt of moonlight. The d over c#m has no theoretical explanation. Tension and release is the lamest explanation. The only real explanation is that it's an artistic idea, he didn't write smash you hands on the piano, he wrote (specifically) a very wrong (but so right) note. To deduce it to nothingness is to deduce moonlight to nothing. It's not a *theoretical* thing. It's a "music is the language of emotion" thing.
Old 20th July 2014
  #57
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slash chords...

music theory is as useful as one makes it out to be, it need not be stupid or useless unless one makes it that way.
Old 20th July 2014
  #58
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Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
slash chords...

music theory is as useful as one makes it out to be, it need not be stupid or useless unless one makes it that way.
10yrs COGIC, I could give a dissertation on slash chords if I thought I knew...Jazz never even began to delve into slash chords like modern gospel does...lots of uncharted territory there. But in a world where you either feel it or nobody cares.

Edit: you ever change the chords on a whole choir? The difference between when they *feel* you, let alone an entire congregation is not subtle...but the expectation is that you DO do YOU (IE reading the chart down is a no go).
Old 20th July 2014
  #59
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apples and oranges...in the same sense it is literally impossible to notate in western form the complex polyrhythms of certain west african music, something even little children innately feel within their culture...

regarding jazz theory, it evolved from myriad sources, and if one wants to be adept at all styles it behooves you to know it well...
Old 20th July 2014
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
apples and oranges...in the same sense it is literally impossible to notate in western form the complex polyrhythms of certain west african music, something even little children innately feel within their culture...

regarding jazz theory, it evolved from myriad sources, and if one wants to be adept at all styles it behooves you to know it well...
All art theory evolves (attempts to explain/understand) after the art. What matters artistically is intention...theoretically define *groove*...I define it as will power, intention, belief, living-it, being-it, doing-it. Ultimately it's the simplest expression....doing you.
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