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Let's end this MPC "colorization" debate! Drum Machines & Samplers
Old 4th March 2014
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eemo1 View Post
wtf is this? was there ever a debate?
ya actually some people say that with the mpc line-up starting at 2000 up there's no coloring. no-one denies the 60 and 3000 do that though.

personally i've noticed the 500 and 1000 do something, not a huge amount though. these are the ones i've used. i haven't done a shootout like is required to get a definitive answer though.
Old 4th March 2014
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killa ego View Post
ya actually some people say that with the mpc line-up starting at 2000 up there's no coloring. no-one denies the 60 and 3000 do that though.

personally i've noticed the 500 and 1000 do something, not a huge amount though. these are the ones i've used. i haven't done a shootout like is required to get a definitive answer though.
The 2000 has coloring for sure. The 1000, that's debatable. I think it is colored ever so slightly but I don't know if they were more colored than the converters of the time. Well, that's likely the case of the 60 and 3000 for that matter. I actually feel my 1000 is more colored than when I first got it, not because of anything else but me upgrading to better converters.
Old 5th March 2014
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killa ego View Post
ya actually some people say that with the mpc line-up starting at 2000 up there's no coloring. no-one denies the 60 and 3000 do that though.

personally i've noticed the 500 and 1000 do something, not a huge amount though. these are the ones i've used. i haven't done a shootout like is required to get a definitive answer though.
Any analogue amplifier and digital converter can be used to alter a sound. Like the op has demonstrated here...
Old 5th March 2014
  #34
1000 and 4000 are clean but they still do a bit of saturating and compressing to the samples...thats why people notice a slight more impact / presence to sounds played out...2000 has a bit more texture / crunch and looses a bit of sub...
Old 7th March 2014
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
kinda funny how people go through all these expensive plugin chains to emulate something done in 5 seconds on ASR/MPC.. makes me feel good about hanging one to these old ladies.. i also suggest some of yall peep this again:

Heh... little side thing I noticed:

J-Zone says his computer is a G2. Apple didn't have a G2, but there's a G3 that came out around 1997, so I figure that's what he actually meant. The MPC 2000 he has also came out in 1997... and the old Apple computer, at least from the video, seems to have aged better in terms of functionality than the old MPC from the same year. Bit surprising, tbh.
Old 7th March 2014
  #36
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Vanilla_Dutches's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by longbongsilver View Post
Heh... little side thing I noticed:

J-Zone says his computer is a G2. Apple didn't have a G2, but there's a G3 that came out around 1997, so I figure that's what he actually meant. The MPC 2000 he has also came out in 1997... and the old Apple computer, at least from the video, seems to have aged better in terms of functionality than the old MPC from the same year. Bit surprising, tbh.
Don't get me wrong, I love J-Zone... I think the dude is a quirky, introverted genius.


But, he shouldn't be saying that plugins cannot do such-and-such when his computer is that much of a relic. He hasn't obviously kept his ear to the street.

Yes, a plugin won't sound exactly like a 4-track cassette...but the next 4-track cassette won't sound like the last 4-track cassette.

Bottom line is, programs like Nebula and dynamic convolution have really bridged that gap.

People shouldn't be standoffish of the technology....embrace it!
Old 7th March 2014
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanilla_Dutches View Post
Don't get me wrong, I love J-Zone... I think the dude is a quirky, introverted genius.


But, he shouldn't be saying that plugins cannot do such-and-such when his computer is that much of a relic. He hasn't obviously kept his ear to the street.

Yes, a plugin won't sound exactly like a 4-track cassette...but the next 4-track cassette won't sound like the last 4-track cassette.

Bottom line is, programs like Nebula and dynamic convolution have really bridged that gap.

People shouldn't be standoffish of the technology....embrace it!
He gets nice results from his tactic, but I don't agree with him about plugins either. I think where people get hung up at in this stuff is expecting the exact character that a particular piece of equipment embeds by default in a plugin, and either chasing THAT exact sound or piling multiple plugins on & getting frustrated the result isn't THAT sound. Once somebody gets past the mythos* around those old pieces as Instant Mojo though, familiar terms come up -- saturation, harmonic distortion, compression, aliasing (on the lower fi samplers) -- that can be applied & controlled now in however amount or form you want.

I came to consider it in reverse in a way: an MPC 60 will pretty much always sound like an MPC 60. With the proper elements & know how you can make the new stuff sound like **** that never even existed. I'm all ITB, and sometimes I use bitcrushers or saturate/distortion plugs. Does the result sound like an SP1200 or an MPC 60? Tbh I don't care, long as it sounds good to me.

(* - I remember a comparison between samplers that was up on some old hiphop forum I used to post at, think it was MPC 2k vs SP1200 vs s950. After I heard what they sounded like dry I stopped thinking it was so simple.)
Old 14th March 2014
  #38
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Synesthezia's Avatar
 

Woah, I didn't realize this thread had gotten so many replies. Kinda late, I know, but here's the updated test; I didn't do the test correctly the first time around.



In the original test, I was just effing around with the knobs (I thought I knew what I was doing... woops). Here, only the Rec Gain knob was touched, so the coloring, distorting, whatever you want to call it is from me sampling with the Rec Gain turned past the clipping point, then outputting that to my PC at normal levels so as to avoid any extra distortion the PC might introduce. In other words, the coloring in this version is from the MPC, and nothing else.

Hope that didn't confuse anyone
Old 15th March 2014
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synesthezia View Post
Woah, I didn't realize this thread had gotten so many replies. Kinda late, I know, but here's the updated test; I didn't do the test correctly the first time around.



In the original test, I was just effing around with the knobs (I thought I knew what I was doing... woops). Here, only the Rec Gain knob was touched, so the coloring, distorting, whatever you want to call it is from me sampling with the Rec Gain turned past the clipping point, then outputting that to my PC at normal levels so as to avoid any extra distortion the PC might introduce. In other words, the coloring in this version is from the MPC, and nothing else.

Hope that didn't confuse anyone
interesting test but I do feel you might be better off using a source that is a clean beat made in the box from unprocessed sounds - rather than a j dilla beat that already was put thru a MPC...whilst the drive in interesting - the units colour the sound with no drive and to me thats the interesting aspect...the drive is just clipping the input stages...which to me doesnt sound that musical...
Old 20th March 2014
  #40
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JC Biffro's Avatar
 

Cool thread. I wish I had room on my desk for more hardware :(

I feel like there's a gap in the market for a producer-esque desk! I use 3 computer monitors so that in itself takes up a ton of room.
Old 22nd October 2015
  #41
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanilla_Dutches View Post
I use the R2R Analog Tape programs from CDsoundmaster and the Acustica free library for the ASR-10 A/D/A

Driving the input hard on Nebula really does some nice things.
People who have from Acustica free library, this library ASR 10, can go somewhere to download the program and vectors? Wants to hear how it sounds ... And everything else that there is no need to ...
Old 24th October 2015
  #42
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Deckdaddy's Avatar
I ran a soundfile, an analog mix of a beat I recorded, made in Reaper/Maschine, that has a lot of bass and transients in it, and passed it once out of my Orion32 back into it as a "raw/compare" file to include roundtrip degredation, and then with the same interface recorded the same file through the MPC2000xl in and out again. That soundclip show just how much the MPC tames the sound, it is more dull with less clear transients, and less bass, sounds more closed in, smaller/lifeless/less exciting. I might share the clips for you to check out.

Of course, a lot of this degradation is part of what gives older gear its character. I like my SP1200s character more tho', and I don't cry if I make a beat in Maschine instead of a 2000XL, but I won't get rid of the 2000XL yet either. It's fast and basic, I know it inside out.
Old 25th October 2015
  #43
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Nahuel's Avatar
 

You dont need to clip the converters to hear what older akai samplers do to a sample. Even with a conservative sampling method it's noticeable. It's very noticeable on acustic drum loops. I found out that my s2800 (probably the same generation of converters found in the 3k) does something very noticeable to kik drums. The kik sounds saturated (not obvious, it's just a tad more 'fat'), the low mids get a small bump and the lower end seem a bit filtered. Again that's without clipping anything while sampling. The 2k series seem to do something similar but a bit higher and the low end seems even more filtered, the hd/bump fx is more noticiable on snare drums while the kik is duller.
Old 26th October 2015
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nahuel View Post
You dont need to clip the converters to hear what older akai samplers do to a sample. Even with a conservative sampling method it's noticeable. It's very noticeable on acustic drum loops. I found out that my s2800 (probably the same generation of converters found in the 3k) does something very noticeable to kik drums. The kik sounds saturated (not obvious, it's just a tad more 'fat'), the low mids get a small bump and the lower end seem a bit filtered. Again that's without clipping anything while sampling. The 2k series seem to do something similar but a bit higher and the low end seems even more filtered, the hd/bump fx is more noticiable on snare drums while the kik is duller.
Certain samplers are obviously colored and on your point about clipping, or not clipping, I think that is a discussion in itself. I don't have the time to do it but I wonder how a different sample rate would effect distortion. Say if you had a 12 bit sampler, I don't know how different the same clipping would sound compared 24 bit, with similar or different converters.

The other side is many people may clip their sampler and think it's a good thing to do but wouldn't dare doing it through an interface at 24 bit.

Lastly, I was trying to use my DJ mixer as a smaller monitor controller when I ditched my mixer and noticed some distortion. I never thought to run finished digital songs through it but I don't like the little distortion it has for mixing, but it sounds great on vinyl. I may have formulated opinions on that, knowingly, and thinking it makes a sampler sound better or worse since in most of my tests, I have not been running a direct A to B path with nothing in between because that just isn't how I work. So samples are going through a DJ mixer to get into a sampler, then through a regular mixer before they hit my interface converters, through a patch bay which is consistent through my tests, but not accounted for.
Old 26th October 2015
  #45
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yes I'm not usually a big fan of clipping on purpose unless I'm after some glitchy kind of fx. the quantization does affect the sound, that's the difference between an s950 and the later S series for example. sampling rate does affect the sound too, it works like a filter, set a 950 at 10k and hear the obvious lpf. I dont know if these pameters influence , the HD to. My intuition is the the distortion comes from the converters for the most part and is idependant from the quantization or sampling rate. And your right, the whole chain comes into play, turntable, needle, cd player, mixer...That said I've done some testings using a 24 bits interface as source/resampling device in order to eliminate that kind of parameters and, to me, as I said, the older S series do something noticiable to the sounds in some spotted frequency ranges.
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