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is sampling composition? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 6th June 2006
  #61
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Tibbon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0t0b0t
This thread is about composition, not instrumentation..

And oh "Moby-esque"! what a nice term to make the sampling done by that TangleEye look like a much higher, more adorable, compository credible and musically art form...

It sounds a lot like Moby to me. Much more than DMX sounds like Moby anyway. The stylings are pretty close in fact i'd say.

And Amp- I use Csound, Max/MSP and i'm ebay searching for a good Comodore 64 to do some programming with, both manually and with the Prophet 64 cart that was just released. Also a fan of Soundhack, and Turbosynth.

Seriously, the only thing that I use my sampler for most of the time is a as a 'stand in' so that I can hear what i'm composing prior to getting it recorded elsewhere. The rest of the time i'm using it to 'snapshot' something that I got with a synth that i'm not so sure that i'll get again. Probably going to happen a lot more when I get a modular.

I did just get the sampling option on my Machinedrum the other week. I'll probably not use it for other artist's samples, but rather for putting samples that I make on there to use in the MD sequencer. First of all... some decent high hats and better breakbeat snares.
Old 6th June 2006
  #62
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AmR2m's Avatar
 

In my humble opinion, composing by sampling is less composition than doing it by playing an instrument. But it's still composition.
It depends on what u do with the sample, and above all on the sample (how long it is, how many instruments are involved...).
To some extent, composing a loop with samples may be more complicated than composing it with a synthetizer keyboard: to get it right, one has to be visionary, if u get what I mean.
It starts by isolating the sound in your mind and imagining in another "landscape". Besides, if u want 2 stick 2 the sample u got, u can't mould it that much.
It's a different kind of composition, I guess: less creative, more visionary.

I love to reverse samples, for example. They sound (of course) completely different than the original, as if u "invented" (but it's better to say "found") a new instrument. Like, take an acoustic guitar sample and reverse it. That's an entire new world. But maybe I'm already talking 'bout something that goes beyond sampling...
Old 6th June 2006
  #63
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon
Seriously, the only thing that I use my sampler for most of the time is a as a 'stand in' so that I can hear what i'm composing prior to getting it recorded elsewhere.
someone mentioned earlier money being an issue. in this case, it's fair to say it is. man, i wish i had the same opertunities as you Tibbon o.O

as far as i'm concerned using sampled instruments (pianos for example which very few people have a chance to record live) played by a midi keyboard is certainly no less creative than recording a live one. and depending how they are manipulated, using sections of sampled audio can be original - i mean, as was mentioned before by casiotone, the radiophonic workshop did a lot of early work with this. but in their case all audio that was edited and manipulated was recorded by them. it would be hard to argue their lack of creativity when the audio being sampled is their own :P

on the other hand, 0t0b0t - i unfortunately think that using a sample clearly from another song (no matter how it is manipulated) can never be as creative as making something entirely from scratch.

don't get me wrong, i'm a huge fan. i myself am writing stuff like this at the moment, and their are some awesome results to be made using these techniques. to my mind, however, it just doesn't cut it in a compositional context compared with something i sit at a piano and write - IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman
It´s people who interpolate melodies/phrases/passages with the INTENTION of "posing/presenting" them as their own.
an interesting point here though - i agree. and even if it is not put forward as their own work - is this the same as sampling?? taking a passage of Mozart for example - taking a melody, harmony or chord progression. where do you all stand on that??

interesting discussion guys, thanks :D

-hazza.
Old 11th June 2006
  #64
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Quote:
Tell me if you can hear what sample I used on The sample track on myspace.

www.myspace.com/pleazurehouse

If you get big enough to get sued then you have probably made it.
Sounds exactly like Weezer's "Say It Ain't So".

Y'know, you could have gotten an 8 year old guitar student to perform
a similar rhythm...after their first lesson.
Old 13th June 2006
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazza
an interesting point here though - i agree. and even if it is not put forward as their own work - is this the same as sampling?? taking a passage of Mozart for example - taking a melody, harmony or chord progression. where do you all stand on that??
I would call it a "cover version". heh

As far as chord progressions and style, a popular example right now would be Paris Hilton´s "Stars are blind" vs. UB40s (they did a cover version) "Kingston Town".

As far as melodies, this is where the fun part of interpolating ends.
It´s stealing.

I can sample a needle falling on the ground and play the "Mondscheinsonate" with that sound.
It´s still the same melody. No matter if piano, needle or human voice.

Sampling as a way of creating an ambience/mood/instrument is ok with me.
Because it´s still leaves you with the freedom of creating a new melody/context.

Now if you interpolate a melody or simply replay it, all you are left with is the ambience/drum kit/synth preset/fx unit.......left with producing the existing composition or adding to it (Gnarlz Barkley - Crazy vs. Last Man Standing)

Rhianna´s "SOS" comes to mind.

"Just a little bit" by 50 cent, which samples parts of the "Ben Hur" music is another example, even though a more subtle one.
So is "Candy Shop", "Lean back", etc... (please don´t ask me what piece of music was "interpolated", because I won´t tell you )

There are categoric differences between the different approaches:

The Neptunes will sample drum arrangements and moods.
Timbaland will sample phrases and melodies.
Storch will sample melodies.
Dre will sample anything he doesn´t have to pay too much for. ("Truth hurts"heh)

The number of sounds you can sample is infinite.
But so is the number of moods, ambiences, timbres and therefor melodies.

This is from an artistic point of view......now if you are inside of this cold, sinking music industry ship, play their game, make money, leave the game winning (it´s called a game for a reason) and do your thang.

As an artist, you will still have the freedom of leaving this world with hundreds of original compositions for the next generations to sample from.
Old 15th June 2006
  #66
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overdose's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
Sounds exactly like Weezer's "Say It Ain't So".

Y'know, you could have gotten an 8 year old guitar student to perform
a similar rhythm...after their first lesson.
That guitar was from Say it ain't So. That song is called "Roll With the House."
That is the track that I said was pretty clear on what it was from.
The track I was challenging with is the "Pleazure House 4 Life." Track.
It says Unfinished Teaser Track.
Old 15th June 2006
  #67
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abit's Avatar
 

The way I understand this-
Initially, lack of education(and cost of it here), and technical progress(affordable sampling boxes) gave us new style of urban music - rap/hip-hop.
Where ppl would express themselves without even need to know how to play
an instrument, but was able quite fast create a beat and read lyrics to it.
And we know the result of it.

Also we know, music is just a part of the whole hip-hop culture.

So.. is it good to use somebody music?
I think it's a necessity from the social angle.
And it's cool, coz it's cool.

Beside that ppl who own those rights get paid again
and no doubt have to be happy about.
Old 15th June 2006
  #68
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Tibbon's Avatar
Was it a bitch to get that sample cleared from Weezer? Used Harry Fox agency I assume? Did you have to submit anything special to myspace to get it posted?
Old 15th June 2006
  #69
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

You need to clear samples with both the record label and the music publisher.
Old 8th December 2006
  #70
Gear Maniac
 

That's HipHop!!! Nothin more to say...


Quote:
Originally Posted by hazza View Post
hello!

it seems to me that a large proportion of contemporary hip-hop composition is based around finding a great old funk track, sampling a riff from that song and producing a beat before adding vocals. this is a huge generalisation, i know - and don't get me wrong, i love those old tracks and most of the time i love what is being done with them. i have plans to make a few tracks with some old samples i've found, actually.

but do you think that this form of composition holds any less integrity than something that is completely 'original'? is it composition as much as it is editing or reworking someone elses track?

cheers all,
-hazza.
Old 8th December 2006
  #71
MrT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
For example, a photographer can take a photo of a sunset and print it, and a painter can paint that sunset. The photographer could use various darkroom techniques to make his photo look more like a painting, and the painter could painstakingly render every detail to make his painting look more like a photograph. In the end, perhaps nobody could tell which was which.

But the painter is still the higher degree of artist because not only did he create his art with his body (rather than with a machine) but he internalized the image. It went into his eyes, into his brain (and soul?) and then out through his hands.

The photographer captures the image on film, manipulates the film and with an enlarger produces an output on paper that can be just as (or perhaps occasionally even more) powerful as the painting, but at all times the image is EXTERNAL to him.

Is the photographer an artist? I would say yes, but not an artist on the same level as the painter.

As an analogy to sampling/composing I would say the sampler is like a photographer who is walking through the museum taking photos of someone else's paintings. The Mona Lisa (snap) The Last Supper (snap) St John the Baptist (snap) He may cut them up and make a wonderful collage. Some people may actually prefer to look at his collage rather than the original paintings.

All well and good, but when this collagist claims he is an artist on an equal footing with Leonardo Da Vinci, I have to disagree. His collage relies on the power of the original images for its impact. Leonardo on the other hand created those images from his own head.

Its not just the output, its the road you took to get there. When a musician writes a piece of music, it comes from INSIDE him. When someone samples something, the music and the sound are EXTERNAL to him at all times.
...
like no ssl said- sampling is not composition, which is why you pay and why you give credit.
I'm sorry but you must know nothing about art. To say that photography is less of an art form as painting because of the method went out of style in about the 40's. While you might think Da Vinci is the height of art now and forever to say his art is more "real" than those who make assemblage or who photograph is... very outdated.

You can't look at art from a stricly formal point of view. That goes equally for music. If you ingore the context of the art you miss what it was truely about. And in the context of today sampling is every bit as legitimate to the audience (not just other artists because all artists/musicians are really just critics) as a "classiclly" composed piece.

Composing is simply the act of making a final product. No matter how you do it, it's still composing.

Appropriation is a HUGE part of modern art and theory. get with the times.
Old 8th December 2006
  #72
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I prefer the title, "Arranger" to "Composer" personally.
Old 8th December 2006
  #73
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theres something funny to me about someone who does virtually nothing but steal others' melodies calling themselves a musician/composer. i agree with the previous post. arranger may be a better word when writing rap/hip hop i actually often prefer to think of myself completely in the art of entertainment rather than composition/music. to each his own...
Old 9th December 2006
  #74
EYE
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If a painter - Inspired by another painter - creates a painting resembling the other painters' work history shows it's often considered Art. In a way that's a visual form of sampling. Take the other work, put it in your own perspective and create something new. As an examle look the whole field of collage Art.

The same goes, imho, for music. A musical collage is the creation of something new by using bits and pieces which already excist. I have to agree with the point someone made that you have intelligent, jaw dropping pieces of work where the sampling artist has created new melodies, moods and styles and you've got the much simpler form of looping 4 bars add a kick, snare and percussion and call it a day.

If simplicity would be a factor for something beeing Art or not, I could think of some paintings, sculptures, etc. which are generally considered Art, which would not hold up to the "it needs to be complex to be Art test".
Old 9th December 2006
  #75
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no. for me sampling is sampling, composition is composition. very simple. just like painting and photographs. no value judgement here. it's just not the same thing and doesn't use the same set of skills. so, it shouldn't be put in the same box....
Old 9th December 2006
  #76
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is composing sampling?
Old 9th December 2006
  #77
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Top Web Results for "compose"

7 results for: compose
View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | All Reference | the Web

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
com·pose /kəmˈpoʊz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhm-pohz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -posed, -pos·ing.

–verb (used with object)

1. to make or form by combining things, parts, or elements: He composed his speech from many research notes.

2. to be or constitute a part or element of: a rich sauce composed of many ingredients.

3. to make up or form the basis of: Style composes the essence of good writing.

4. to put or dispose in proper form or order: to compose laws into a coherent system.

5. Art. to organize the parts or elements of (a picture or the like).

6. to create (a musical, literary, or choreographic work).

It's pretty clear by definition sampling is composing. However, I still personally refer to myself as an Arranger.
Old 9th December 2006
  #78
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Not to be rude, but anyone who looks down on sampling or considers it an inferior art probably shouldn't be doing hip hop. Sampling is simply a modernized version of spinning the break back and forth between two reords, which is the foundation for hip hop music. The art of hip hop lies in its ability to reuse old and sometimes forgotten music and reshape it into something new. In fact, if hip hop is to be compared to art, I'd liken it more to sculptures that are made from old trash. It may not be pretty, it may not be of original materials, but it's art born of its environment. You can respect that fact or not.
Old 9th December 2006
  #79
MrT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Twin View Post
Not to be rude, but anyone who looks down on sampling or considers it an inferior art probably shouldn't be doing hip hop. Sampling is simply a modernized version of spinning the break back and forth between two reords, which is the foundation for hip hop music. The art of hip hop lies in its ability to reuse old and sometimes forgotten music and reshape it into something new. In fact, if hip hop is to be compared to art, I'd liken it more to sculptures that are made from old trash. It may not be pretty, it may not be of original materials, but it's art born of its environment. You can respect that fact or not.
I'd say hip hop and Pop Art are the most similar. Appropriation was the basis part of Pop Art.
Old 9th December 2006
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrT View Post
I'd say hip hop and Pop Art are the most similar. Appropriation was the basis part of Pop Art.
That analogy works, too. After all, Warhol didn't design the Campbell's label, right?
Old 9th December 2006
  #81
MrT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Twin View Post
That analogy works, too. After all, Warhol didn't design the Campbell's label, right?
Roy lichtenstein too.
Old 11th December 2006
  #82
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sampling

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Twin View Post
Not to be rude, but anyone who looks down on sampling or considers it an inferior art probably shouldn't be doing hip hop. Sampling is simply a modernized version of spinning the break back and forth between two reords, which is the foundation for hip hop music. The art of hip hop lies in its ability to reuse old and sometimes forgotten music and reshape it into something new. In fact, if hip hop is to be compared to art, I'd liken it more to sculptures that are made from old trash. It may not be pretty, it may not be of original materials, but it's art born of its environment. You can respect that fact or not.

Nicely put. I just think of it like this: Its the same as a DJ doing a mix. A DJ can scratch and add effects to alter the music. And all the hip hop heads can surely agree that what a DJ does is an art. Sort of like someone saying " Man ! What if there was a remix to that song?" You can do so much to a sample. Chop it, speed it up, slow it down, add effects, put a delay on it, etc....My current favorite song with a sample is Jay-Z's "Kingdom Come" produced by Just Blaze. If you haven't heard it yet it samples Rick James' "Super Freak".
Old 27th December 2006
  #83
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Plunderphonics

Plunderphonics 'Pataphysics + Pop Mechanics, an introduction to musique actuelle by Andrew Jones
Old 28th December 2006
  #84
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I didnt read ANY of the posts, the question was Is Sampling Composition? Of course it is!! Anyone who said its not doesnt know the true definition of composition. Simple and Plain
Old 29th December 2006
  #85
Gear Head
 

I'm not gonna trip about whether or not sampling is considered composition. Since Hiphop is music that comes outta the Black Diaspora, I expect it to get the same consideration that all previous art created by Black folks received from the establishment. "....It ain't considered art by the establishment."

Hell, Coltrane and Dolphy caught hell back in the early 60s and Bebop was a crime. So, I don't wanna go down that dark class/color trap.

Anyway, what I came here to add was that I see using samples of pre-existing loops or even single notes as arranging. And arrangers, like Larry Mizell, Fletcher Henderson, Tadd Dameron, Gigi Gryce, James Brown, George Clinton, Duke Ellington and Mingus are some of my favorites.

With these folks, there is a place where the performance and the written music meld together and become something else. Must Black music in the new world was for real world use, not just for the page. The DJ, is sorta like the equivalent of the arranger/conductor in that kind of setting.

Peace yall and happy new year.
Old 29th December 2006
  #86
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sampling is just a technique, the answer depends on what when how etc.
Old 30th December 2006
  #87
compistion

music has to be composed for you to hear it, dont ya think
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