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is sampling composition? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 26th May 2006
  #31
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cramseur's Avatar
I find these types of discussions both interesting and silly. On the one hand I say who cares if sampling is according to Webster's "composing" ??

Why does the OP care what we here think? Will it influence a "sampling" purchase? Will it change his musical direction? Academics postulate about ideas and ideals, like physicists debate the origins of the universe, but in the end WE ARE HERE, making our own music, each in our own way...good, bad, neutral, and otherwise.

Why not ask if Dutch yodeling is "real" singing? Are hubcaps real musical instruments? What about found noises, recorded on tape? Does the recording medium even count? What about prepared piano, is that less "real" than a real piano? Musique Concrete?

C'mon, get real. Artists should not be in the business of caring about whether some forum dwellers think their creations fit some semantically charged definition. I just make the music, use or discard as you wish. (however praise is preferred) dfegad cubbyholes and plastic cages.
Old 26th May 2006
  #32
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overdose's Avatar
 

What they said ^
Old 26th May 2006
  #33
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sharky's Avatar
If you sample the intellectual points made above will be moot if you start to make money from a song that is clearly sampled. Look at what happened to SOOOO much good hip-hop groups in the 90's: they put out records with recognizable samples, got sued, started to not use samples and the quality of their music seriously diminished with many of them.

Then again people put out some of the most killer music based on out-right copryright violation (see the "Grey Album") and it flies.

I think it depends on how tasteful it is and more importantly (if it is a commercial venture) how hidden it is from the lawyers!
Old 26th May 2006
  #34
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illynoise's Avatar
 

All I know is that I was hype when I moved from the Mirage 2.5 seconds per bank at 8khz to an EPS with variable almost 40 seconds. Changed the game for me.

I've always played over the sample, new basslines, new sounds. I've always tried to make a sample sound like a sample should.

Look at how I used this one on a Esther Phillips track on my myspace page,

www.myspace.com/basejase

it's not sampled because of it's feel, but more for it's soul, and then I played the feel that I wanted to around it and fooled you into thinking that some of what sounds like a sample actually isn't.

So yes it's a composition.

Thanks Esther.

BaseJase
Illynoise
Old 26th May 2006
  #35
Gear Head
 

Here's one for you. I sample myself. I play my instruments, sing some vocals, cut&process and build tracks that sound like have samples from old records. art is about expression and comunication, however you do it is up to you. No form is surperior or imferior to another. Do you!!!
Old 26th May 2006
  #36
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Is playing a trumpet solo composition? Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. It's hard to learn the trumpet and that factor probably makes it more likely a trumpet solo will also be a composition. Originality is originality. It's the result of having something to say, taking chances and trying to really communicate something to others as opposed to being merely self-indulgent "posing."

The first sampled records were very very hard to make and the successful ones were absolutely brilliant compositions by any standard of originality or creativity. Too much popular music isn't very original and now that working with samples has become child's play, it has spawned a real flood of posers.
Old 26th May 2006
  #37
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soultrane's Avatar
take for instance, the HORRIBLE track "tilt ya head back" which is built entirely from the the classic track "superfly."

you could not broadcast/reproduce that composition unless you get clearance.

and u could only get clearance if you had the fees/legal/etc. to persuade the mayfield estate/copyright owners of superfly.

so what kind of composition is it then, that requires the composer to have a phalanx of lawyers and a big checkbook before people can even hear his work?
Old 26th May 2006
  #38
For me sampling is composition.. there's no doubt.
Ok, it's easy to take a loop from an already dope recording and put some drums on it.. that's how sampling started off.. it's not that creative anymore...

But as some of you've already mentioned, the fun begins when samples get teared off, taken out of their original context, put into a new light, added with other elements or samples to a complete new composition.

That's true and original art to me, I don't just take a piece of sample and put it in a mysterious black box and push the button called "random generator".. 5 minutes pass and abracadabra voila: a new track is born, hehe...
it happens in my head, is done by my hands.. not by the artist I sampled some pieces from.
He/she never ever would have come up with that work.. a complete new creation.

Here's a beat I'm working on that IMHO is a unique composition and shows what I'm talking about heh
in the first 4 bars you can hear the original sample it's based on...
don't know if it's common to post soundfiles in this section, but here it is
Attached Files

Orkan_Gazi_-_comFive.mp3 (1.58 MB, 255 views)

Old 26th May 2006
  #39
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ttauri's Avatar
 

I don't see why sampling can't run the gamut, same as any other instrument. I mean, I think the spectrum that runs from, say, "U Can't Touch This" through "Black Steel In The Hour Of Chaos" to way-out stuff like John Oswald's Plunderphonics is pretty palpable to anyone, but it's still treated as equivalent on the basis of using samples.



Eskimos are supposed to have like 100 different words for snow, and I feel like, as members of the recording industry, we could and should have a similarly elevated acuity for the different ways the practice of sampling can be used.

Peece,
T. Tauri
Old 26th May 2006
  #40
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0t0b0t
, the fun begins when samples get teared off, taken out of their original context, put into a new light, added with other elements or samples to a complete new composition.

That's true and original art to me, I don't just take a piece of sample and put it in a mysterious black box and push the button called "random generator"..
there it is

like this: http://kevbrownmusic.com/videos.htm
Old 27th May 2006
  #41
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Tibbon's Avatar
I love remixing things, but it doesn't hold a candle musically, artistically, or compositionally to when I sit down and write a string quartet piece, or a piano sonata.
Old 27th May 2006
  #42
Here for the gear
 

Didn't Bam say the break is where your god self gets wild? If so how can sampling not yield a creative composition? Rocking doubles of impeach the president is a compostion. So get off your high horses.

Why don't we dismantle our pretensions and just make good records?

People should just do them and do what the music calls for. If you find a dope loop use it. If it needs alteration, chop it. However chopping a record for the sake of doing so is not creative. If the technique doesn't advance the plot in any way, it's useless. If you play an instrument, shut the **** up and play. Don't give a flying **** what nobody else thinks. Love the artform and yourself and subjects like these become irrelevent.

What we all have in common is that we have something to express and even If were not the most technically proficient on our chosen instruments or acceptable to the status quo (whose limited view were trying to destroy anyway), were gonna do our thang regardless.

Whether we make beats with samples, with keyboards, or any other instrument for that matter were able to get across an emotion, tell a story, comment on society's ills, and for brief moments realize our many true potentials as human beings.
Old 27th May 2006
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by rekidxkavada
However chopping a record for the sake of doing so is not creative.
Why's that? What you're saying is like "making music for the sake of making music is not creative"..

When I chop a record in that way (like in the beat above) I do it to come up with a new measure.. I do it for the sake of it. And IMHO it's effin creative! It's not to advance the original recording.. it's to come up with something completely new..
But taking a dope loop and putting little to it is definition wise trying to advance it and in most cases such experiments end up by people saying how much they do prefer the original.

cheers
Old 27th May 2006
  #44
Here for the gear
 

good points I kinda rushed that thought so let me rephrase. I wasn't saying advance the original I meant advance the beat. If your chopping a record because of some unspoken rule that your no good if you dont, thats not right me. I just said that because there were quite a few occasions where the techniques executed were exceptional but the sample to me didn't call for it thus doing the finished beat an injustice. You had to have ran into an example of that in your travels right ? I just do what I feel and what the samples tell me to do and not let anyone tell me I can't. there is no doubt in my mind you do the same.heh
Old 2nd June 2006
  #45
Gear Nut
 

in the basic sense of the word composing means putting things together. so it is objectively composition. that does not mean it has any value, but does any composition have it just because there is a real guitar or orchestra?
Old 2nd June 2006
  #46
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H-Rezz's Avatar
 

Interesting topic........

It's compositon for some and clever assembly work for others.....the way people view it is a personal one , i'm not on either side and if people like what they are doing that's all that matters .

I tend not to use samples but i'm more of an RnB producer then a HipHop/Rap one even though these day's the lines are getting blurred .
Old 2nd June 2006
  #47
no ssl yet
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson
Is playing a trumpet solo composition? Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. It's hard to learn the trumpet and that factor probably makes it more likely a trumpet solo will also be a composition. Originality is originality. It's the result of having something to say, taking chances and trying to really communicate something to others as opposed to being merely self-indulgent "posing."

The first sampled records were very very hard to make and the successful ones were absolutely brilliant compositions by any standard of originality or creativity. Too much popular music isn't very original and now that working with samples has become child's play, it has spawned a real flood of posers.

This is the best answer. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.
Old 4th June 2006
  #48
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fwiw

if sample mangling is composition..... why are most of these guys (sorry for the generalization) seemingly incapable of writing anyother way??? (how many have stopped sampling and flopped)... you dont have to have a composition degreee (i do) and you dont have to be a theory wiz...(i am) but you do have to bring yourself to the project and if it's someonelses self (ripped from a record) it is by deffinition not you.... go ahead and prove me wrong write something of your own totally yourown.... one of the prices we as musician/artists pay over and over again is that others demean what we do insisting that they "are as creative" because this "piece"never existed before... sad real sad and now everone with a karaoke machine thinks he's got a studio....
Old 4th June 2006
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dementedchord
if sample mangling is composition..... why are most of these guys (sorry for the generalization) seemingly incapable of writing anyother way??? (how many have stopped sampling and flopped)...
Mr.Olhsson put it the right way: it depends on the intention.
How is for example Alicia Keys "Fallin" something "original"?
It´s still on the same level as "I´ll be missing you" by Puff Daddy, by definition.
Because with melodies, you can´t change the context.

Orkangazi´s example is what you (dementedchord) probably define as "sample mangling". It´s like taking an acoustic guitar, micing it up, letting the signal run through an effect...."sample mangling". It doesn´t matter, if I change the frequencies to achieve a different "ambience" or change it´s timbre....I still don´t change the context.

Now if I take a couple of samples (sample as in individual sounds, not phrases/melodies/passages) from a piece of recorded music, I can decide whether I mangle the sample and keep it´s "ambience" or take it completly out of context....melody/phrase/passage wise.

If I go for the last option, I am definitly composing something original....

People like Hans Zimmer, who could afford hiring musicians, often don´t do it.
They come up with original melodies, passages.........but the phrases (of let´s say a trumpet) are "paraphrazed" samples of the "sample library" musician, therefor samples/"ambiences" taken out of context.

Sample mangling goes hand in hand with "posing/presenting" someone else´s work as your own, because it is it´s intention. If it´s honorable to do that and if it´s "fair", is another story.

There is a equivalent in the world of composers ("how many have stopped sampling and failed"), which is much worse than this.

It´s people who interpolate melodies/phrases/passages with the INTENTION of "posing/presenting" them as their own.

This is much worse for me than all Kanye Wests and Puffys of this world combined.

Count in here:
Dr Dre
Timbaland
Scott Storch
The Neptunes
......

the list goes on forever.

If I had to post examples I know of from the last 4-5 years, it would take hours to write this post and probably stirr up a lot of anger.

This is not composing, not paraphrazing, this is stealing...but off course, there is a cooler therm for this in the world of hip hop: stealing is called "interpolating" these days.

And as much as I don´t like "stupid" sample mangling, I hate stealing....sorry, interpolating
Old 4th June 2006
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman
Orkangazi´s example is what you (dementedchord) probably define as "sample mangling". It´s like taking an acoustic guitar, micing it up, letting the signal run through an effect...."sample mangling". It doesn´t matter, if I change the frequencies to achieve a different "ambience" or change it´s timbre....I still don´t change the context.
What? LoL, have you even listened to my example? If it was like you say I hadn't posted it in here...
It's not just filtering the original (I even didn't filter anything of the original) or micing it up, yada yada.. or anything around experimenting with effect settings like you describe.. it just wasn't needed in this case or for justifing purposes like "but don't you hear it's highpassed?"...
I COMPLETELY CHANGED THE CONTEXT! it was a loop at around 135 BPM with binary measure.. now it's completely rephrased, triolic at 91.xx BPM, added with a punchy ass drumkit PLUS (if you had listened to it more than 25 secs you'd know that) 3 more instruments playing my (though minimalistic) melodies.. MY composition.. LOL don't ever call it 'using the compository skills of others' or 'not being able to compose' .. this goes esp. to dementedchord.
I not just work with samples because I have no ideas for compositions. Many many beats I make don't even have a sample they're based on besides maybe sampled one shot drums. But I like to use samples I base my production on because they may have interesting textures or a special sound to them.. just like you use a special guitar, special synth or whatever to build on top of your compositions.
But it seems just because somebody dares to use some samples to integrate into his compositions, he's no composer in your eyes.
People, get over the idea that Hip Hop sampling artists are villains who can't compose, LoL..
Old 4th June 2006
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0t0b0t
I COMPLETELY CHANGED THE CONTEXT!
you see, this is my definition of composition.
you have "sampled" a phrase from my post and changed the context! heh
now if you read the two paragraphs following that "sample", you will see that I wasn´t referring to YOUR example as "looping and eqing".
Old 4th June 2006
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman
you see, this is my definition of composition.
you have "sampled" a phrase from my post and changed the context! heh
now if you read the two paragraphs following that "sample", you will see that I wasn´t referring to YOUR example as "looping and eqing".
But if you reread your 4 lines before that sample (exactly the quote of you I have in my previous post) you must see that you are reffering to me and my example as something dementedchord probably would define as "sample mangling". Something like taking an acoustic guitar, micing it up, letting the signal run through an effect....
And I tried to explain that this simply isn't what I was doing with that particular beat! And it also doesn't go into the category of "not changing the context".

I simply not changed the context of your post by quoting the five lines in which you reffered to my example.. and what I wrote was an argumentation perfectly following your post
And the two paragraphs you wrote after those five lines I quoted seem not be reffering to me (in your argumentation chain) because they are the total opposite of those said and quoted five lines.

Am I not getting what you were sayin about my example or what ?
This is confusing man..
Old 4th June 2006
  #53
BTW Markus, I already said in the post where I attached my example that the fun begins when samples get teared off, taken out of their original context, put into a new light, added with other elements or samples to a complete new composition.

I haven't sampled your phrase
You sampled my phrase and interpreted it.. where are the royalties?
I just made a new remix of my original phrase realizing that it was fashionable again..
Old 4th June 2006
  #54
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dementedchord
if sample mangling is composition..... why are most of these guys (sorry for the generalization) seemingly incapable of writing anyother way??? (how many have stopped sampling and flopped)... you dont have to have a composition degreee (i do) and you dont have to be a theory wiz...(i am) but you do have to bring yourself to the project and if it's someonelses self (ripped from a record) it is by deffinition not you.... go ahead and prove me wrong write something of your own totally yourown.... one of the prices we as musician/artists pay over and over again is that others demean what we do insisting that they "are as creative" because this "piece"never existed before... sad real sad and now everone with a karaoke machine thinks he's got a studio....
i consider a sample as an instrument like any other one. do not forget you can have an orchestra play ****, too. what counts for me is not the tools, but how you use them. and "classic" composition doesn't mean you will create great or even good music...
Old 4th June 2006
  #55
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Tibbon's Avatar
I'm not sure I see the point to just sampling things.
It seems a rare situation that you'd HAVE to sample something to get a certain thing done, and rarely does it have a 'point' to it.

On the other hand, there are some projects like the TangleEye Alan Lomax remix thing that was taking samples from some of the earliest black southern music that we have recorded, and making Moby-esqe songs out of it.

Sampling other people's kicks, snares, drumloops, etc... I don't get it. They recorded that kick in some way to get that sound. If you're a decent engineer you should be able to do the same.

There is some use in musically "Quoting" another artist. The Queen's of the Stone Age did a pretty cool little quote of "A Day in the Life" by the Beatles in their song "No One Knows", however there wasn't a sample to be seen there, just them playing. I would have hated it had they sampled the song, but instead they did something creative.
Old 4th June 2006
  #56
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon
Sampling other people's kicks, snares, drumloops, etc... I don't get it. They recorded that kick in some way to get that sound. If you're a decent engineer you should be able to do the same.
perhaps a question of money? among others.
Old 4th June 2006
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon
Sampling other people's kicks, snares, drumloops, etc... I don't get it. They recorded that kick in some way to get that sound. If you're a decent engineer you should be able to do the same.
This thread is about composition, not instrumentation..

And oh "Moby-esque"! what a nice term to make the sampling done by that TangleEye look like a much higher, more adorable, compository credible and musically art form...
Old 5th June 2006
  #58
Gear Maniac
in first place, i don't write much, but i read a lot, so: hi all

most about this subject as alredy been said, and i don't have anything particullary brillant to share, but as it is a subject that concerns me i just wanted to share my 2 cents on this one:

Sampling is composition. No matter how you do it, if it's with an instrument, a machine, or whatever, assembling a (preferencially beautifull :P ) piece of music is always composition. I mean, for example, a drumachine is based in it's own internal sound engine but it's overhall behavior (sequencing, that is) isn't so different from something like a mpc, and if you program a pattern on that thing, it is considered composition. You created a drum line using a machine, you can do exactly the same with the sampler. Or program a bass line in the same way (using the same sequenced "style" example that you would do with a 303, and that's still considered composition (ok, so maybe the hard core classic purists don't agree with this, but they aren't reading this thread - and i don't give a rat's ass).
Taking for example the bbc radiophonic workshop in the uk:
they started creating "electronic" music during the 50's and 60's for show's like doctor who. They're prime way of working? Sampling.
The recorded the sounds onto tape loops, and used dozens of them, synced with different machines, to create the music. Some of it was quite complex, like Delia Derbshire, or my favourite - John baker: who made this completly mad jazz tracks with bleeps and blongs (and everyone should hear it). So, this was pre-synthesizer.
The funny thing was that when synthesizers came along, some of these people refused to work with them, because they consider it rather limitating (i mean, what's a dozen vco's and filters when you have an whole word of sound out there?).
And synthesizers have never been regarded as non-composition tools because you "play them" - probably because they we're brought to the public togheter with the switch on bach record, wich gave them credibility has instruments - even has classical instruments.
But on the same note, when you are writting a piece of music with a pen and paper, you are also composing, but you are not using an instrument. So, i really can't see the difference between that and -say- a sequencer, or a mpc - or an arpegiator, for that matter.

Just to finish it off:
i make sample based music (and remeber, there's more than hip-hop in sample based music - SBM, catchy name... or not) and take a lot of pride in my compositions, even if they are simple (or not - depends on my mood).
So, here's a little challenge (and shameless self-promotion for me):

go here:
http://www.myspace.com/hellyeahss

it's my artist profile, listen to the song named "moon child". Part of it is sampled, part of it is played (and treated). Try to figure out wich is wich.

Oh, and if you feel like, give a listen to the other songs :P

Oh (2), and i want to express my feelings for this forum: I LOVE YOU GEARSLUTZ!

cheer-o

pc
Old 6th June 2006
  #59
Here for the gear
 

Music is an expression of a moment in time, if u r expressin what is goin on in your head in dat moment of time than it is music. Can u say sum1 didnt compose the music because they sampled it. No. If u can take sumthin that came from 30,40 year ago or however long ago an make it relevent to whats goin on around u than it is music. Everyone may or may not like it or agree wit it, but hell who does agree on anything nowadays. I think samplin is only such an issue, because nuff musicians got caught up in the hype of playn guitars fast, or in the case of hip hop dissin other artists, an doin more skilled traights than actually makin an expression of the times. I think people get mad when the vibe of a sampled track has alot more in it than the vibe of there playn. It all really comes down to basics. It is what it is, if your usin a skill to exemplify sumthin than thas dope, but if your jus tryna show off, than it shows in the vibe. Let the music speak for itself. If u judge it so much it sounds like a lifeless Corporate head tryna tell u rules to how to make music..... what rules???

1

By the way i think sum of the best "compositions" were live, but on the other hand i think hip hop has got tracks that are jus as good, good music is good music,
Old 6th June 2006
  #60
amp
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon
I'm not sure I see the point to just sampling things.
It seems a rare situation that you'd HAVE to sample something to get a certain thing done, and rarely does it have a 'point' to it.

On the other hand, there are some projects like the TangleEye Alan Lomax remix thing that was taking samples from some of the earliest black southern music that we have recorded, and making Moby-esqe songs out of it.

Sampling other people's kicks, snares, drumloops, etc... I don't get it. They recorded that kick in some way to get that sound. If you're a decent engineer you should be able to do the same.

There is some use in musically "Quoting" another artist. The Queen's of the Stone Age did a pretty cool little quote of "A Day in the Life" by the Beatles in their song "No One Knows", however there wasn't a sample to be seen there, just them playing. I would have hated it had they sampled the song, but instead they did something creative.


im with you on that. you a csound or kyma guy?
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