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Let's talk Reverb in Hip Hop Reverb & Delay Plugins
Old 11th September 2006
  #31
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i like to set up a reverb bus for vocals with my UAD-1 Plate 140 ever so gently..subtlety is key
Old 11th September 2006
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont View Post
Halls suck for hip hop vocals...
Not when you feed one side to a flanger and the other to a chorus.
Old 11th September 2006
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max cooper View Post
I spent a couple of years where I never put an ounce of verb on any rock mixes I did. A little delay, maybe, but no verb.

I've changed that now, but if it sounds right, go with it.

Listening to your own ears (does that make sense?) is the best way to develop your own sound.
thanks,
i feel it sounds right, if it doesn't, i look for other options than verb to please 'my own ears.'

why'd you go back to using verb?
Old 11th September 2006
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beat you down View Post

why'd you go back to using verb?
I started listening to a bunch of '80's music, like the Psych Furs, Cure, etc. and I kinda got hooked.

FWIW
Old 14th September 2006
  #35
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yeah, I´m in "80s mode" too.

how I miss these ****ty 80s gated verbs heh
Old 14th September 2006
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
Not when you feed one side to a flanger and the other to a chorus.
oooo...I cant let this go unnoticed. too cool. So you would make a bus with your room verb and then Aux in a flange and a chorus? This is probably easier in hardware, I am not sure how I'd do this in cubase, but Id love to try that out.
Old 14th September 2006
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
oooo...I cant let this go unnoticed. too cool. So you would make a bus with your room verb and then Aux in a flange and a chorus? This is probably easier in hardware, I am not sure how I'd do this in cubase, but Id love to try that out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
oooo...I cant let this go unnoticed. too cool. So you would make a bus with your room verb and then Aux in a flange and a chorus? This is probably easier in hardware, I am not sure how I'd do this in cubase, but Id love to try that out.
I've done this in PTLE by using a stereo delay.

For the flange, you can automate the delay time to cycle by drawing the automation curve in the track.

Then you can use the modulation depth and rate controls to get a chorus on the other side.

Although I've never done it on a reverb track, I'm sure it's gotta sound pretty cool.

I also like PSP's Nitro for stuff like that.

Or you can use guitar pedals. The purple Boss flanger is great, and I like the yellow Ibanez chorus pedal.

I'd be curious about Thrill's m/o is.

Hey, Thrill, are you related to Dean and Davis Factor, btw?
Old 23rd January 2007
  #38
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great thread
I always have the worst problems getting reverbs right

it seems like the reverbs on RnB vocals dictate a "good" or "bad" sounding vocal
i always kind of try to match the feel of the reverb to the feel of the reverb on the snare...

like, if the snare doesnt have a real long verb time, then the vocal wont either.

i spend so much time on reverb tweaking.. cuz im paranoid of the reverb sounding cheesy...

i use altiverb 5, and Waves REnn Verb
Old 23rd January 2007
  #39
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Hmm Reverb/efx are key to HUGE hip hop mixes, although the current trend isn't to acutally "hear" them, just to "feel" them

Vocals:
*Short (gated) bright halls: OTB 480 (jazz hall) ITB Reverb one (gated hall)
*wood (darker) rooms: OTB 480 (small/med room) ITB Reverb one (wood rooms)
I'm not a fan of plate's on vocals in hip-hop because a plate "tail" is VERY noticable, better for R&B.
*2 short delays, panned hard left & right. in the 30-60ms range (I love the waves doubler)
*Chorus/flanger: (scoop out all the stuff on the return around 1k-5k let the dry vocal take that range)
*Even longer delays can be used sparingly, on the edge of audability to fill out the track.

Key thing is use moderation, and try panning your returns on some efx hard right or left.

my .02
Old 23rd January 2007
  #40
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great post soundeq, could you post some more reverbexamples but for other elements like drums and such? and when you say that hiphop reverb should be more feeled than heard, how do you accomplish this, is it in the predelay?

and the doubler plugin from waves, what good does it do? can i use it for cool delay panning with some ms of offset and such? gimme me some useful tips on this cool plugin
Old 23rd January 2007
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fn86 View Post
great post soundeq, could you post some more reverbexamples but for other elements like drums and such? and when you say that hiphop reverb should be more feeled than heard, how do you accomplish this, is it in the predelay?
It's not about one specific reverb parameter... Usually when you're trying to get a "dry" sound that still has depth to it, it's about choosing verbs that are subtle enough to not really be noticeable, and sometimes stacking 2 or 3 to get the different depth effects you desire, but only using a *shade* of each and gating them appropriately if needed. If you do it correctly, the listener shouldn't really be able to directly "hear" the verb around the vocals, but if you take it out you should notice the loss of ambience/space immediately.

Basically you use just enough to give things some room to breathe, but not enough that you actually notice the reverb tails themselves in the mix. It's kind of like the wax on a car; when your car leaves the assembly line they put on just enough that you feel/see the effect of the wax on the car (it makes the car shiny and smooth, and if you took the wax off you'd notice the diff), but you're not actually staring at the layers of wax themselves.
Old 23rd January 2007
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
Basically you use just enough to give things some room to breathe, but not enough that you actually notice the reverb tails themselves in the mix.
great advice.

You don't want the listener to notice the reverb tail while listening to the track (does the listener even care??? ). Like someone said, you can even use a gate if you want.

subtlety is key.
Old 23rd January 2007
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fn86 View Post
and when you say that hiphop reverb should be more feeled than heard, how do you accomplish this, is it in the predelay?
there are a couple of simple things you can try out.
set a send for your drum track (try different things: kick, clap, hh).

put a filter/eq on the send. place your reverb after it.
example: send a kick to the fx. now cut off anything below X. cut anything below X & everything above Y. just play with it and try things out. try a low/band/high-pass the signal.

if you want a glissy clap verb, you will probably want to accentuate the highs and cut off the lows.

put the filter AFTER the reverb, repeat the procedure and see if you can hear a difference.
you can go even further and put a gate or compressor in the fx chain and see what that does.

this should give you a better understanding of the many ways in which reverb can help your sound.......or totally mud it/mess it up. heh

hope this helps.
Old 23rd January 2007
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
Usually when you're trying to get a "dry" sound that still has depth to it, it's about choosing verbs that are subtle enough to not really be noticeable, and sometimes stacking 2 or 3 to get the different depth effects you desire, but only using a *shade* of each and gating them appropriately if needed.
Short delays are more effective for this than multiple verbs. I never put more than one verb on a single vocal track.
Old 23rd January 2007
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
Short delays are more effective for this than multiple verbs. I never put more than one verb on a single vocal track.
do you mean delays in general or putting an delay on the reverbed element?
Old 23rd January 2007
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
there are a couple of simple things you can try out.
set a send for your drum track (try different things: kick, clap, hh).

put a filter/eq on the send. place your reverb after it.
example: send a kick to the fx. now cut off anything below X. cut anything below X & everything above Y. just play with it and try things out. try a low/band/high-pass the signal.

if you want a glissy clap verb, you will probably want to accentuate the highs and cut off the lows.

put the filter AFTER the reverb, repeat the procedure and see if you can hear a difference.
you can go even further and put a gate or compressor in the fx chain and see what that does.

this should give you a better understanding of the many ways in which reverb can help your sound.......or totally mud it/mess it up. heh

hope this helps.
this sounds really nice, do you mean that i should create a fx-channel, insert two eq and a reverb on it, send my drumsound to it, and play with the eq that is inserted before the reverb and the eq after the reverb?

when you mean cut anything below x and above y, would that mean i could use a bandpass filter / just roll of with hp and lp? cheers
Old 23rd January 2007
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fn86 View Post
this sounds really nice, do you mean that i should create a fx-channel, insert two eq and a reverb on it, send my drumsound to it, and play with the eq that is inserted before the reverb and the eq after the reverb?
yup. that way you can not only alter the sound of the verb, by switching slots, you can also change the source of the signal before hitting the effect.
for example, you could "suck out" all the punch of the kick with a gate or a comp before it hits the reverb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fn86 View Post
when you mean cut anything below x and above y, would that mean i could use a bandpass filter / just roll of with hp and lp? cheers
you can try out all kinds of filters/eqs or comps/gates. it depends on the frequencies you want to accentuate or cut. it´s really nice if you want to give the reverb a certain taste.
Old 23rd January 2007
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
Short delays are more effective for this than multiple verbs. I never put more than one verb on a single vocal track.
That first sentence is a blanket statement and completely a personal preference, and it isn't really true; it totally depends on which verbs/delay you are using and how you choose to use them. For example, listen to some of Kanye's vocals that soundeq mixed for an example of how effective more than one (subtle) layer of verb can be.
Old 23rd January 2007
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
That first sentence is a blanket statement and completely a personal preference, and it isn't really true; it totally depends on which verbs/delay you are using and how you choose to use them. For example, listen to some of Kanye's vocals that soundeq mixed for an example of how effective more than one (subtle) layer of verb can be.
Well, I'm totally aware of Soundeq's work and it's great no doubt. I didn't see anywhere where he said that he uses two verbs simultaneously on the same source.

And it is true... Short delays are more representative of a real environment, thus creating a more natural sense of space without any obvious effects. When's the last time you walked into a vocal booth or tracking area and heard a natural reverb? NEVER. But there's ALWAYS delay. ****, go stand at the edge of the Grand Canyon and yell really loud.....

Maybe you missed some of my work. I take extreme pride in the vocals, especially.
Old 24th January 2007
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
Well, I'm totally aware of Soundeq's work and it's great no doubt. I didn't see anywhere where he said that he uses two verbs simultaneously on the same source.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showp...34&postcount=3

Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
Maybe you missed some of my work. I take extreme pride in the vocals, especially.
It's impossible to miss. You toot your own horn a LOT here. I never took any shots at your work, however my point was that, just because YOU do things a certain way doesn't mean it's better or the right way.

I just objected to making a blanket statement that delays are necessarily better than using a couple of verbs. It all depends on the specific situation, the specific units you're using, the artist, and the specific sound you're going for. Your point about short delays is halfway true, but realize that a 'realistic' sound isn't just about delay. There's more going on when you step into a booth... Some reverb units simulate the natural filtering/comb filtering of the sound in tighter spaces, so that even when the tails aren't completely obvious, it *still* ends up sounding like the space it was intended to represent. Etc. There's more than one way to use a verb :D

And anyway, who said that vocal effects always have to be completely about realism anyway? I never walked into a vocal booth and heard the sound of some of the Eventide harmonizer presets coming 'naturally' off the walls either, but they definately sounds good on vocals in the right situations...

The point is, using effects is like painting... Not everybody does it the same way with the came colors, but in the end what matters is how you blend everything and put the total picture together.
Old 24th January 2007
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
The point is
That you missed my point. All I was saying is that you can get a less gimmicky sense of dimension from short delays as opposed to verb.

I don't "toot" my horn at all. I use my work and experience to back up my statements and point of view - which is something that's extremely rare on this website.
Old 24th January 2007
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
That you missed my point. All I was saying is that you can get a less gimmicky sense of dimension from short delays as opposed to verb.
Well if "less gimmicky" is how you'd describe it, then less gimmicky doesn't = better. And it only makes sense to judge what's right for the specific situation and gear at hand :D
Old 24th January 2007
  #53
Ok here's something that I want to know how you guys do.

On a track where you have lots of gentle panning, let say your guitar panned about slightly left and may something panned slightly right, then some of you backing vox's panned out also. Now to get that elusive space you want to pann your verbs where the source is. Are you doing this with 4 or 5 verbs set up? If you using software that 's gonna start mangling your CPU, and in harware you only got one or two units.

So what's the answer..or is it just I don't have enough CPU or Ram?

I tend to use maybe 2 software verbs and up to 2 harware verbs. Generally 1 hardware verb on the vox's and the other hardware verb on the snare and percs, then save the software for the other instruments, but always got to plan it our so I can try and do a little panning for space, and don't max my CPU out. Also I tend to leave the verbs till I've balanced, comp'd and eq'd the mix. This way I feel I'm only adding the verb where it's gonna enahance the mix and not for the sake of it. Also again I go for the feel not heard philosophy.

When do you guys start putting the verb on tracks?
Old 24th January 2007
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
Well if "less gimmicky" is how you'd describe it, then less gimmicky doesn't = better. And it only makes sense to judge what's right for the specific situation and gear at hand :D
Man, I just don't understand why you have to go into battle with guys that are on.

It's nice to debate ****, but it's getting silly to see flames every thread directed at guys who in the hole every day doing this stuff. I respect the **** out of good engineers, maybe it's just from my touring days of meeting all kinds of cool guys..but regardless...in a studio, it's better to just listen to people and disagree by making your own platinum mix to counter with.

Debating every now and then is cool, but it's getting heated every thread almost now it seems.
Old 25th January 2007
  #55
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I'm not heated at all, it's good discussion. And I pointed out one of the engineers here who I respect (and who calls very little attention to himself), who provided a specific example of using a couple of verbs, plus other effects, with a stellar result. Soundeq is just as much 'in the hole everyday doing this stuff', he's just somewhat quieter about touting his accomplishments. And he's not the only successful engineer ever to use 2 diff. verbs together to acheive a certain sound.

I didn't post in this thread to start a fight with t.dizzle (especially not after just defending his hard work on another thread, haha). And no flames, I just disagree with his comment toward me saying that short delay is necessarily more effective than a couple of verbs (which is a personal, situation-dependent preference, not an absolute). I've noticed his tendency to be agressive toward people that don't agree with his choice of gear and technique (see the Avalon thread). I don't use my musical track record to tell people that my way is the only way (in fact, I don't even mention it unless it's absolutely necessary), because a track record doesn't make your opinions gospel. Don't see why it should be any different with 1 sucessful engineer's view or methods vs. another :D The result is the key.

I've noticed that a lot of engineers have this tendency, especially the more experienced that they get.... You mention something that 4 other top major engineers use with great success, and they swear it's either wrong or inefficient. Ex. You talk to one who swears compression is the devil and uses it only on a couple tracks, then you talk to another who uses a little light peak compression on many tracks. You talk to one who swears that a lot of boosting with eq is a surefire way to ruin a mix, and then you talk to others that are just as successful who boost just as much as, or more than they cut. I've had an opportunity to talk with Massenburg and gotten totally different opinions about things that he was absolutely sure about from other successful engineers.

I just try to view things objectively and consider everyone's approaches. I'm just as quick to ask questions as I am to take a stance. I add everything together and then see for myself what works for me... Only reason I bothered to post again is to say that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blayz2002 View Post
Ok here's something that I want to know how you guys do.

On a track where you have lots of gentle panning, let say your guitar panned about slightly left and may something panned slightly right, then some of you backing vox's panned out also. Now to get that elusive space you want to pann your verbs where the source is. Are you doing this with 4 or 5 verbs set up? If you using software that 's gonna start mangling your CPU, and in harware you only got one or two units.
Some people do indeed use more than one or two units. As far as hardware, if you're going to 'position' the verb then you don't need it to be a stereo verb, and on some HW verbs you have the option to use split mono for the L/R inputs. So assuming you had 2 in split mono, that gives you 4 mono verbs that you can pan however you wish once you return them. As far as CPU, if you're running a protools HD system you have HD cards to bear the brunt of the load for TDM-capable plugs. And even outside of the studio on my home system, I can run more than 1 or 2 of certain verbs without completely killing my CPU, with planning as you say. Depends on the verb!

But don't feel you have to use seperate verb on every track. And if you are tight on options, and you run up against the wall with verbs on individual tracks, just print the verb until you need to modify it.

When you pan verb it's not always to where the source is. Try spreading it out a little instead of always placing the verb in the exact same spot as the source track
Old 25th January 2007
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundeq View Post
Hmm Reverb/efx are key to HUGE hip hop mixes, although the current trend isn't to acutally "hear" them, just to "feel" them

Vocals:
*Short (gated) bright halls: OTB 480 (jazz hall) ITB Reverb one (gated hall)
*wood (darker) rooms: OTB 480 (small/med room) ITB Reverb one (wood rooms)
I'm not a fan of plate's on vocals in hip-hop because a plate "tail" is VERY noticable, better for R&B.
*2 short delays, panned hard left & right. in the 30-60ms range (I love the waves doubler)
*Chorus/flanger: (scoop out all the stuff on the return around 1k-5k let the dry vocal take that range)
*Even longer delays can be used sparingly, on the edge of audability to fill out the track.

Key thing is use moderation, and try panning your returns on some efx hard right or left.

my .02

Can you clarify how this is done ITB? Here's what I understand, please add/correct as seem fit:

Lead vocal sent to bus --> Lead voc Bus
from Lead Voc Bus create a send to 3 + add'l busses?

Lead Voc insert sends to:
  • Verb1 bus pan - left 50%
  • Verb 2 bus Pan - right 50%
  • Delay Bus Pan - Hard Left]
  • Delay 2 Bus Pan - Hard Right
Would the above be an example of how you use it?

Last edited by boodah; 25th January 2007 at 07:55 AM.. Reason: Clarity
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