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Beat out of the MPC's stereo out : sounds good!!! tracked in pro tools : not so good Audio Interfaces
Old 10th May 2006
  #31
Gear Head
 
mammath's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle
Well, I don't need to search on this forum for the answer. I already know that I'm right.
I don't even need to respond to this 'cause the others already have. But dude, that's not a good way of seeing things. As already been noted, there are tons of documented material that proves your assumptions are incorrect.

But to be fair, you're not alone. Many people still believe in recording as hot as possible, going in. Be a little more open minded. That's what we all joined Gearslutz for.......to LEARN!
Old 10th May 2006
  #32
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Switchcraft's Avatar
 

I would say hot as possible is not always best. Read up on digital mix busses.
Old 11th May 2006
  #33
Gear Maniac
 

got the SPDIF digital option?

if so you may want to try fattening with plugs.
Old 11th May 2006
  #34
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In the earlier manuals of pro tools le, Im talking 5.0-5.1(not sure if its still there?), it was stated to track instruments with fast transients it was best to record at the lowest buffer possible (at the time it was 128). It then went on to state that vocals could be done at 256, because of its slower attacks. The newest version of le with a digi002 allows for a 64 playback buffer,

Tricks to fix MPC probs/ and Workstaion trackouts:


1. Try lowering yours down to the lowest it will go.

2. Setting your mpc to sync on in/out, (so when you press play it says "waiting for midi ") Most workstations have this same option. Gets them ready to recive midi, less lag on start time.

3. Instering 2 bars in the begining of your sequences is an old trick for mpcist. This gap of air in the beg. give the machine time to cathup.

4. 2 track your beat in the same session to mimic the mix.


Stay up, Gearslutz.

Last edited by Charlie-O; 11th May 2006 at 07:19 PM..
Old 11th May 2006
  #35
Gear Addict
 
hitsville's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-O
In the earlier manuals of pro tools le, Im talking 5.0-5.1(not sure if its still there?), it was stated to track instruments with fast transients it was best to record at the lowest buffer possible (at the time it was 128). It then went on to state that vocals could be done at 256, because of its slower attacks. The newest version of le with a digi002 allows for a 64 playback buffer,

Tricks to fix MPC probs/ and Workstaion trackouts:


1. Try lowering yours down to the lowest it will go.

2. Setting your mpc to sync on in/out, (so when you press play it says "waiting for midi ") Most workstations have this same option. Gets them ready to recive midi, less lag on start time.

3. Instering 2 bars in the begining of your sequences is an old trick for mpcist. This gap of air in the beg. give the machine time to cathup.

4. 2 track your beat in the same session to mimic the mix.


Stay up, Gearslutz.

sounds interesting ! thanks, I'm gonna try all that. I had no idea the buffer size could affect the sound
Old 14th May 2006
  #36
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5down1up's Avatar
 

sounds to me like the mpc just sounds different if you play all the sounds @ once.
( the way your describing it at least ... less coloration etc. )

does the problem still occur if you monitor just one single sound and compare it to the single recorded sound ?

and the rumour " louder is better " didnt make it for me.
ive tried it all and have to agree that proper gain staging is more than recommended. if i can remember correctly even -48dbfs on a 24 bit system is still 16 bit resolution. it doesnt make much sense imho to track as loud as possible and have the pleasure to lower all faders ( and input gain for processing ) to not overload the mixbus or the processors.

correct me if i am wrong
Old 14th May 2006
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mars
If you used the individual outs of the MPC, then that's your problem right there. The MPC 3000 (and S3000) has 18-bit converters on the stereo outs and 16-bit on the individuals. Also, some models (def. MPC 2000) used just 4 converters multiplexed across the 8 outputs instead of one per output (def. MPC 60). Also, I would not use the digital out of the MPC. A large part of the "MPC Sound' comes from the slight midrange rise of the D/A converters.
I think we may have a winner here...

So pan mono signals L&R and send em out the stereo outs to PT two at a time?

But can I just add that the MINUTE you change ANYTHING from monitoring -to actually recording - you are cruising for a bruising - its the engineers skill to change as little as possible, or to develop work-arounds to get back to or replicate that cool sound you had in the first place. All sorts of factors can come into play here including decisions that sometimes using cheap gear on some things just somehow works out better than expensive gear..
Old 14th May 2006
  #38
Gear Nut
 

we have had the same problem in our studio.

i found when tracking its not nessecary to track every track, and have complete

editablity. after all its hip hop. stem out your tracks to like 4 stereo stems, and come

out thru the main outs, this to me gives us the "closest" replication to the mpc.

how are you tracking?

are you using mmc midi beat clock? we did and experiment, we dont use these anymore ESPECIALLY when seperating tracks out track by track., you will never get the lock in you get in the mpc. protools is NOT sample accurate.

so the work around wer have done is this

take the tempo of your track in protools record the mpc click

then paste it in the first bar (make sure you already set to your tempo in PT)

make that a 1 bar continuous loop by joining the sections. out put it to a zip or a multi card (whatever your using) we have a multi cardd in the cpu and the mpc)
then load that sound as cell on the mpc, put it at the beging of the track in song mode..

track out each track with that first bar of clicks in your track. when you get in protools tab to the first

transient, cut align to the beginning. tab to the first BAR now, and cut and realign all the tracks together.

and boom.. you have rock solid never fail timing. we went thru a year never understanding why the beat just doesnt seem right.

we have a gtq - stereo distressors - 002 (ya the conversion it is what it is) but

this way we def keep alot of the sound. a few samples off from midi clock or the like and your track sounds different no matter the gear.


alot of people go in search of more equipment when its teh timing of the mpc that is so important

that thing is like a rock, protools is like a waterballoon... it may not be your equipment, it may be that your timing is ever so slightly off from track to track and the track completely looses its thump.

hope this helps.

1
Chris
Old 15th May 2006
  #39
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(DC)'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle
If you are recording in a DAW, you ALWAYS want to track everything as loud as possible without clipping.

Man, that's a sweet chain you got there until the last part....
You don't actually have to do that... we're working in 24 Bit, so that gives you a nice amount of headroom. That's always important to a good sound. You can always bump the volume up a bit later.
Old 15th May 2006
  #40
Gear Maniac
 
mars's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghosttt
are you using mmc midi beat clock? we did and experiment, we dont use these anymore ESPECIALLY when seperating tracks out track by track., you will never get the lock in you get in the mpc. protools is NOT sample accurate.

ProTools IS sample-accurate as far as editing goes - the MPC is not. I have heard people mention that the MPC timing feels different when synced externally. I've never tested this myself and the last time I was using an MPC regularly, we used SMPTE sync to tape. A good person to ask about this would be Roger Linn himself...
Old 15th May 2006
  #41
no ssl yet
Guest
Post an example of both. Sync the MPC to protools

Do 2 versions
1 Bounce to disk after recording into ptools
2 BTD with the MPC feeding an aux track into ptools.

Let us hear it and we'll be able to help more
Old 16th May 2006
  #42
Lives for gear
 

[EDIT] record the mpc tracks in stereo [/edit]

Lawrence
Old 16th May 2006
  #43
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

ya, post the short clips

Protools does have its sound. i first noticed it a while back....but it not that much difference.




Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
Uhhhh Nuk, Why would he be flipping one of the channels outta phase again?
i was thinkin bout something else..heh
Old 16th May 2006
  #44
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hitsville's Avatar
 

I want to post some audio, but I'll have to make a little beat specially for gearslutz as I can't really 'leak' the stuff I'm working on now.

hopefully I'll have enought time this week.

I'll also try the stereo thing (Lawrence where did your long post go ?!) and the stems thing and I'll post audio of them too.
Old 16th May 2006
  #45
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitsville
I want to post some audio, but I'll have to make a little beat specially for gearslutz as I can't really 'leak' the stuff I'm working on now.

hopefully I'll have enought time this week.

I'll also try the stereo thing (Lawrence where did your long post go ?!) and the stems thing and I'll post audio of them too.
I remembered that every time I tell people about that I get so much opposition to that method it kind of irritates me. People just don't believe it.

So I went back and edited it and made it simple.... record in stereo.

Lawrence
Old 16th May 2006
  #46
no ssl yet
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitsville
I want to post some audio, but I'll have to make a little beat specially for gearslutz as I can't really 'leak' the stuff I'm working on now.

hopefully I'll have enought time this week.

I'll also try the stereo thing (Lawrence where did your long post go ?!) and the stems thing and I'll post audio of them too.

LOL It's funny whenever you guys say this.

IF you are sooooo worried about getting your stuff leaked, then stay with the problem you are having and solve it yourself. It kinda makes it feel like we've wasted time trying to help a flamer. Someone with a real concern who actually makes beats would have no hesitation in programming a kick/snare pattern that shows his problem.

You'll have to solve this one on your own .
Old 16th May 2006
  #47
Gear Addict
 
hitsville's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
LOL It's funny whenever you guys say this.

IF you are sooooo worried about getting your stuff leaked, then stay with the problem you are having and solve it yourself. It kinda makes it feel like we've wasted time trying to help a flamer. Someone with a real concern who actually makes beats would have no hesitation in programming a kick/snare pattern that shows his problem.

You'll have to solve this one on your own .
???

nah I'm just saying I'm gonna post audio, but I don't have anything I can post right now, so it'll probably takes a few days. Why wouldn't I be worried to get my stuff leaked ? I just can't leak the stuff I'm working on these days why is that a problem ? Someone with a real concern who actually makes beats would have no hesitation in programming a kick/snare pattern that shows his problem. -> 1) you don't know me 2) a simple kick snare pattern won't do. My problem happens with beats with several layers of samples, and I think the more samples in the beat, the more difference PT makes. 3) I can live without your help, thanks. Matter of fact, I made this post not only to get help but to raise a problem which seems to happen when tracking mpc's, and, apparently, I'm not the only one to have experienced the issue...take it easy
Old 20th May 2006
  #48
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soundeq's Avatar
 

There is "somthing" about the way the MPC summs... 2000's and 3000's mainly.. som old 60's. There's some kinda compression, or even distortion that makes them sound oftentimes very "nice" on the 2tk bounce. When you try to multi track out the beat, it loses all it's feel. I spesifically know of several top 10 hip/hop singles that have used the 2tk rough beat out of the MPC, after a GRAMMY nominated engineer couldn't get the same vibe that the 2tk had. More than a few times, and more than a few engineers.... So don't sweat it too much... If you think too hard about it you might be missing the bigger picture... Track both! (thats what I do) The stereo bounce, and the individual tracks.... that way you can use either on mixdown.
Old 20th May 2006
  #49
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitsville
???

nah I'm just saying I'm gonna post audio, but I don't have anything I can post right now, so it'll probably takes a few days. Why wouldn't I be worried to get my stuff leaked ? I just can't leak the stuff I'm working on these days why is that a problem ? Someone with a real concern who actually makes beats would have no hesitation in programming a kick/snare pattern that shows his problem. -> 1) you don't know me 2) a simple kick snare pattern won't do. My problem happens with beats with several layers of samples, and I think the more samples in the beat, the more difference PT makes. 3) I can live without your help, thanks. Matter of fact, I made this post not only to get help but to raise a problem which seems to happen when tracking mpc's, and, apparently, I'm not the only one to have experienced the issue...take it easy

why not just post the beat/track you started this thread about?? no need to make a whole new beat.
Old 20th May 2006
  #50
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic
why not just post the beat/track you started this thread about?? no need to make a whole new beat.



because his **** is so hot and exclusive he can't even post it on gearslutz.
Old 20th May 2006
  #51
Gear Addict
 
hitsville's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305
because his **** is so hot and exclusive he can't even post it on gearslutz.
ummm.. I'm working on some music that's gonna be released in the year, I'm not on this project alone, but with a whole team, and I just can't leak **** like that, it's not a matter of "hot" or "exclusive" where did I say that? why can't you respect that ? I'm sure some of you will understand

anyway, had to send my 3k on repair this week. I'm getting it back next week and I'll post some clips then. if you think im bull****in or I should post the stuff I'm working on or blablablabla please don't check that thread anymore that'll save some of your time & some of mine
Old 20th May 2006
  #52
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitsville
yeah so I'm having this problem I just noticed.. I was working on a beat on the mpc earlier today. Thought it sounded good so I started tracking it track by track into protools (mpc -> Radial JDI -> Neve 1073 -> Fatso -> UA2192 -> PT LE)

Then ? Guess what, the beat didn't sound that good anymore. I started playing with a few plug-ins but the sound was just more clean and cold, not 'glued' like it was from the 2outs of the MPC. Any of you ever noticed something like that ?

When I was making the beat, I was monitoring from PT, with an AUX, so the sound was already going thru my preamps and converters. So I guess it's just Pro Tools' summing that really sucks ? It's not even a digital/analog summing issue, as the mpc is digital and -apparently- its summing sounds way better than pro tools' . (btw I'm talking about a 3000) What should I do ? spend my money on Analog Chanel ? I've tried it a while ago and wasn't convinced, so I can't demo it again, and actually I find it a bit too expensive so I don't know.
Your beat box should sound exactly as it does in real time. You're doing something wrong, it's got nothing to do with PT "summing".

For one thing, why not ditch all that crap inbetween your MPC and recorder and gp straight in; you've fallen victim to the magic box syndrome - my guess is you've got a gain-staging issue in there somewhere.

Ed
Old 20th May 2006
  #53
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
LOL It's funny whenever you guys say this.

IF you are sooooo worried about getting your stuff leaked, then stay with the problem you are having and solve it yourself.
As if there's anything truly "new" these days, especially in the world of rap, which has fallen victim to the same formulaic boredom that exists in much of popular music. heh

Ed
Old 20th May 2006
  #54
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F Major's Avatar
 

Try tracking all of your drums stereo instead of mono.
Old 20th May 2006
  #55
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11
As if there's anything truly "new" these days, especially in the world of rap, which has fallen victim to the same formulaic boredom that exists in much of popular music. heh

Ed
your first statement was wrong.

your second statement doesn't apply to me
Old 28th May 2006
  #56
Gear Addict
 
hitsville's Avatar
 

Audio examples

okay I finally had the time to run this little test. I made a beat, bounced it thru an AUX BUS in pro tools. Then I recorded every individual track, sync-ing with midi, using stereo tracks for every instruments (even the drums which were mono). I did not change the levels at all. Then I had my boy come over with his comp so we could do the same using his copy of samplitude 8. There's definitely a big sync problem with the samplitude test.. I dont know what happened, we checked and it doesn't look like we've made any tracking mistakes. For last, I converted the drums in the pro tools session to mono, and raised their level by 3db so they would be as loud as they were in stereo.

here are the files..
Attached Files

protoolsbounceindivualtracks.mp3 (1.64 MB, 1179 views)

protoolsbouncethruaux.mp3 (1.64 MB, 1108 views)

samplitudebounceindividualtracks.mp3 (1.62 MB, 766 views)

protoolsbouncemonodrums.mp3 (1.64 MB, 814 views)

Old 28th May 2006
  #57
Gear Addict
 
hitsville's Avatar
 

btw I took the fatso off the tracking chain and I think it definitely helped getting a closer sound when recording each track individually.. I think I'll keep it on the 2bus
Old 28th May 2006
  #58
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitsville
yeah so I'm having this problem I just noticed.. I was working on a beat on the mpc earlier today. Thought it sounded good so I started tracking it track by track into protools (mpc -> Radial JDI -> Neve 1073 -> Fatso -> UA2192 -> PT LE)

Then ? Guess what, the beat didn't sound that good anymore. I started playing with a few plug-ins but the sound was just more clean and cold, not 'glued' like it was from the 2outs of the MPC. Any of you ever noticed something like that ?

When I was making the beat, I was monitoring from PT, with an AUX, so the sound was already going thru my preamps and converters. So I guess it's just Pro Tools' summing that really sucks ? It's not even a digital/analog summing issue, as the mpc is digital and -apparently- its summing sounds way better than pro tools' . (btw I'm talking about a 3000) What should I do ? spend my money on Analog Chanel ? I've tried it a while ago and wasn't convinced, so I can't demo it again, and actually I find it a bit too expensive so I don't know.


TWO WORDS----BIG BEN.....lol

and yes summing is a HUGE asset!!
Old 29th May 2006
  #59
Lives for gear
First of all I've to say that you've made an illest beat
I really prefer the first version with the bounce of individual tracks (it's the first one I think). The stereo image is better and the sounds are more defined
Old 29th May 2006
  #60
Gear Maniac
 
headz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundeq
There is "somthing" about the way the MPC summs... 2000's and 3000's mainly.. som old 60's. There's some kinda compression, or even distortion that makes them sound oftentimes very "nice" on the 2tk bounce. When you try to multi track out the beat, it loses all it's feel. I spesifically know of several top 10 hip/hop singles that have used the 2tk rough beat out of the MPC, after a GRAMMY nominated engineer couldn't get the same vibe that the 2tk had. More than a few times, and more than a few engineers.... So don't sweat it too much... If you think too hard about it you might be missing the bigger picture... Track both! (thats what I do) The stereo bounce, and the individual tracks.... that way you can use either on mixdown.
some have good experience in using MPC 3000 impulses via Tritone Colourtone as an insert FX in PT to regain that MPC sound, so if the timing in PT is correct this could be a way to get that 'something' back again...
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