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Phil Tan: Low End Studio Monitors
Old 17th September 2011
  #1
Gear Head
 

Phil Tan: Low End

Hey guys,

I mixed an RnB song and I thought the balances and the sound was pretty good.

Then I compared my mix to Phil Tan`s Mix of "Black and Yellow".
My problem is that when I listen to Phil`s Mix on my Event Opal @85dB - you don`t hear the massive rumbling going on between 30-50 Hertz.

The second monitors I use are Adam P11a with a sub. I have to turn up the sub quite a bit to hear what`s going on down there. Listening to Black and Yellow in the car leaves me stunned. On my car system (which is the stock audio system) I can hear and feel the subbass of Phil`s Mix.

Why can I hear this Lows in my car and don`t hear them in my studio without really cranking up the Sub?
Old 17th September 2011
  #2
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E.rOk.stA's Avatar
 

Because alot of car stereos come with a form of Waves' MaxxBass technology that uses psychoacoustics, introducing harmonics of a sub frequency to trick the brain to "hearing" it.

Even if the stereo doesn't have it, mixers anticipate that listeners are going to be listening on; 1- headphones, 2- computer monitors, or 3- cars. Neither of those have the subs or drivers to translate anything below 60-100db at best. They (even I do it) put RBass or MaxxBass plugins on the kick and bass tracks to give that lowend presence. I use RBass on almost everything. Demo it, it's sick.

In conclusion, the song itself doesn't actually have alot of sub-bass.
Old 17th September 2011
  #3
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actually there isnt much low bass at all... erok is right.. u actually hear the bass better cutting much of the lower bass out
Old 17th September 2011
  #4
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e-are's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by E.rOk.stA View Post
Because alot of car stereos come with a form of Waves' MaxxBass technology that uses psychoacoustics, introducing harmonics of a sub frequency to trick the brain to "hearing" it.

Even if the stereo doesn't have it, mixers anticipate that listeners are going to be listening on; 1- headphones, 2- computer monitors, or 3- cars. Neither of those have the subs or drivers to translate anything below 60-100db at best. They (even I do it) put RBass or MaxxBass plugins on the kick and bass tracks to give that lowend presence. I use RBass on almost everything. Demo it, it's sick.
+1. Rbass is really good.
Old 17th September 2011
  #5
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room acoustics?
Old 17th September 2011
  #6
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karumba's Avatar
definitely room acoustics. i can hear the bass of black & yellow really nice (my room is acoustically treated). phil's mixes are fantastic.
Old 18th September 2011
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recall View Post
room acoustics?
Room acoustics is NOT the problem.
Actually it`s treated and it fullfills the specs according to EBU/ ITU-R BS.1116-1.
Old 18th September 2011
  #8
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I met phil tan back in 06. I was high as sh*t. Everyone was riding his nuts except me and my boy. We had just finished a big ass blunt in the car. We made the whole conference room smell like bud lol. There were 7 of us in this interview and since we got there late me and my boy had the two seats closest to him since everyone else already took the other seats. They were all filming and taking pictures and we were blitzed. I didnt even know/care who he was then. Oh wait i still dont ha. Everyone was asking him all this technical **** liks what do you use for thks what chain etc.. basically his answer was consistently "it depends." I asked him what was the craziest **** he saw in the studio. He said that dipset had this guy they hired to roll blunts. At the end we took a group picture and it was the funniest **** ever. We were like selected out of hundreds of kids to sit and have a 1-on-1 with this guy lol. I think full sail black-listed me and my boy after i swear.
Old 18th September 2011
  #9
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RedTuxedo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
I met phil tan back in 06. I was high as sh*t. Everyone was riding his nuts except me and my boy. We had just finished a big ass blunt in the car. We made the whole conference room smell like bud lol. There were 7 of us in this interview and since we got there late me and my boy had the two seats closest to him since everyone else already took the other seats. They were all filming and taking pictures and we were blitzed. I didnt even know/care who he was then. Oh wait i still dont ha. Everyone was asking him all this technical **** liks what do you use for thks what chain etc.. basically his answer was consistently "it depends." I asked him what was the craziest **** he saw in the studio. He said that dipset had this guy they hired to roll blunts. At the end we took a group picture and it was the funniest **** ever. We were like selected out of hundreds of kids to sit and have a 1-on-1 with this guy lol. I think full sail black-listed me and my boy after i swear.
I've worked with him a number of times... I actually gathered some Phil secrets....

There are SOOO many things wrong with your post. Riding his nuts? Guess again. Late?

Isn't FullSail about $30K?

Trust me, you lost out on a very valuable opportunity. Just keep smoking.....
Old 18th September 2011
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
I think full sail black-listed me and my boy after i swear.
Good Job man. ;0)
Old 18th September 2011
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangarchitekten View Post
Hey guys,

I mixed an RnB song and I thought the balances and the sound was pretty good.

Then I compared my mix to Phil Tan`s Mix of "Black and Yellow".
My problem is that when I listen to Phil`s Mix on my Event Opal @85dB - you don`t hear the massive rumbling going on between 30-50 Hertz.

The second monitors I use are Adam P11a with a sub. I have to turn up the sub quite a bit to hear what`s going on down there. Listening to Black and Yellow in the car leaves me stunned. On my car system (which is the stock audio system) I can hear and feel the subbass of Phil`s Mix.

Why can I hear this Lows in my car and don`t hear them in my studio without really cranking up the Sub?
Reference Phil's mix in your room while you are mixing your song and most of the issues will reveal itself.
Old 18th September 2011
  #12
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E.rOk.stA's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by karumba View Post
definitely room acoustics. i can hear the bass of black & yellow really nice (my room is acoustically treated). phil's mixes are fantastic.
If he's rockin' Opals, I'm pretty sure he's aware of acoustics...
Old 18th September 2011
  #13
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RedTuxedo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.rOk.stA View Post
If he's rockin' Opals, I'm pretty sure he's aware of acoustics...
Maybe not. He might be sitting in a node.

I know plenty of pros that get high dollar systems and don't put any money into the room.
Old 18th September 2011
  #14
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RedTuxedo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
Oh you gathered some of his secrets? Does he dip his balls in Won ton before a session?
Had you been paying attention, you might be able to know.

Guess Not...
Old 18th September 2011
  #15
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rickrock305's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
Oh you gathered some of his secrets? Does he dip his balls in Won ton before a session?
heh oh man...

It sure sounds like a room acoustics problem. You say it's treated, but is it treated properly? (im not familiar with the specs you quoted)

And as someone else suggested, would probably be wise to reference some of that stuff while you're mixing
Old 18th September 2011
  #16
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Soon coming out DVD where Phil show his proces of mixing i thing Black and yelow mix is included
Old 18th September 2011
  #17
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karumba's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.rOk.stA View Post
If he's rockin' Opals, I'm pretty sure he's aware of acoustics...
it seems so. but its seems he has problems with the translation of his room, if he doesn't hear the bass area properly with the opals and the adams+sub. i'm monitoring with adam s2.5a *without* subwoofers (i had 2 subwoofers before, but my previous room wasn't as good as my new one).
Old 18th September 2011
  #18
Gear Head
 

Ok, I am not a Pro when it gets to Roomacoustics.
That`s why I authorized Acoustic Engineers to get my room correct according to official specs of AES/EBU.

Here are the measurements of the acoustician done with officially calibrated equipment BEFORE treating my room.

Measurement of Opal at Mixing Position

www.klangarchitekten.de/public/PM_U_W9_L.jpg
www.klangarchitekten.de/public/PM_U_W9_R.jpg

Reverbration time
www.klangarchitekten.de/public/PM_U_W9_Rev.jpg

The astonishing discovery was that my room was already mostly inside the EBU specification before - except for 50/100 Hz.

And thats`s exactly what we adressed.
Old 18th September 2011
  #19
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E.rOk.stA's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by karumba View Post
it seems so. but its seems he has problems with the translation of his room, if he doesn't hear the bass area properly with the opals and the adams+sub. i'm monitoring with adam s2.5a *without* subwoofers (i had 2 subwoofers before, but my previous room wasn't as good as my new one).
Or maybe the issue was exactly what I suggested 2 posts in.....??? Here's a thought, why don't you pull the song up and actually listen to it?(which I have probably 100 times being from Pittsburgh)

The OP's observation is pertaining to the track itself, not the room.
Old 18th September 2011
  #20
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by E.rOk.stA View Post
Or maybe the issue was exactly what I suggested 2 posts in.....??? Here's a thought, why don't you pull the song up and actually listen to it?(which I have probably 100 times being from Pittsburgh)

The OP's observation is pertaining to the track itself, not the room.
I am NOT a rookie at all when it comes to mixing and I always try to get better setting the highest standards for myself (Phil Tan, Dave Pensado, Tony Belmont etc.).

The observed mismatch might also be due to the fact that I have to compare a professionall-mastered, worldclass-mixed production to a really good Mix without any Multibandcompresion, Limiting etc.

Ok, I can do an on-the-fly mastering myself but at the mixing stage I don`t know what a really good ME would get out of my mix.

Nevertheless, its`s funny that this "Room Thing" has become some kind of an reflex answer, no matter what the question was.
Old 18th September 2011
  #21
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E.rOk.stA's Avatar
 

Just so we're clear, I was defending your point..
Old 19th September 2011
  #22
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Danny Downer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.rOk.stA View Post
Just so we're clear, I was defending your point..
heh
Old 19th September 2011
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangarchitekten View Post
I am NOT a rookie at all when it comes to mixing and I always try to get better setting the highest standards for myself (Phil Tan, Dave Pensado, Tony Belmont etc.).

Tony Belmont or Maserati or both ? heh
Old 19th September 2011
  #24
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e-are's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
I met phil tan back in 06. I was high as sh*t. Everyone was riding his nuts except me and my boy. We had just finished a big ass blunt in the car. We made the whole conference room smell like bud lol. There were 7 of us in this interview and since we got there late me and my boy had the two seats closest to him since everyone else already took the other seats. They were all filming and taking pictures and we were blitzed. I didnt even know/care who he was then. Oh wait i still dont ha. Everyone was asking him all this technical **** liks what do you use for thks what chain etc.. basically his answer was consistently "it depends." I asked him what was the craziest **** he saw in the studio. He said that dipset had this guy they hired to roll blunts. At the end we took a group picture and it was the funniest **** ever. We were like selected out of hundreds of kids to sit and have a 1-on-1 with this guy lol. I think full sail black-listed me and my boy after i swear.
Thats most of the rappers I've worked with. heh
Old 19th September 2011
  #25
Gear Addict
 

Touché my friend... touché
Old 19th September 2011
  #26
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by E.rOk.stA View Post
Just so we're clear, I was defending your point..
Yeah, I know man.
Old 19th September 2011
  #27
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by E.rOk.stA View Post
Just so we're clear, I was defending your point..
Yeah, I know man.
Old 19th September 2011
  #28
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rickrock305's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangarchitekten View Post

Nevertheless, its`s funny that this "Room Thing" has become some kind of an reflex answer, no matter what the question was.

It's not a reflex answer. Maybe I'm not properly understanding your problem, but it sounds like mixes in your room are sounding a bit light in the bass that reveals itself when listening in your car. If thats the case, then your car has some bass boost kind of settings on, or your room isn't accurate.

And yes, I know you've had your room tuned professionally, but that doesn't mean it's right. I've heard professionally tuned rooms by some of the "best" in the business that sounded like dog ****
Old 19th September 2011
  #29
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Storyville's Avatar
Engineers are like sound physicians, we hear the symptoms then try to make a diagnosis. If I say I'm eight years old, I have bumps all over my body, and I'm running flu like symptoms, the first place the doctor is gonna look is chicken pox. Could be a bunch of other stuff.

"room" is somewhat of a reflexive answer - however - in this case when someone says "I'm having trouble to get my sub bass to sit as heavily as Phil Tan's, specifically in regards to translation" - first place I'm looking at is monitoring - room and speakers. Well, the speakers are high quality, that leaves the room as the most likely culprit.

However, inverse diagnosis - the power of the sub of Phil Tan's "Black & Yellow" (which is an awesome mix) might not translate as well outside of the room. This leaves three other likely issues - source sounds, engineer's technique, and engineer's processing equipment.
Old 19th September 2011
  #30
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E.rOk.stA's Avatar
 

If you listen to Black and Yellow on car speakers, you hear bass freq's that seem to go way down to the low double digits. When you pull it up with a sub present, there's not much there, it doesn't matter what room you do it in, Oceanway or Jimmy's bedroom.

I do this all the time with RBass. It tricks you into hearing low bass freq's on speakers that aren't capable of even producing those freq's by creating harmonics directly related to the fundamental tone. Psychoacoustics......

This is what's going on here.
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