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Punching-in not on point?
Old 5th January 2011
  #91
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
Please explain how Nas, Andre 3000, Kanye, Jay-Z, etc. would be stronger if they didn't punch in. Please don't give me no artistic dribble. Tell me how much more successful in the careers they would be if they didn't punch in.
They'd have smoother performances which could lead to higher ticket sales, and be more prepared to drop verses @ interviews which could gain fans. Are you saying they HAVE to punch in to make good music? Nas COULDN'T make equally great music without it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
You have never been to or done a show I see. You can't hear a single damn word at a show or concert. People sing along because they know the words already. You ever wonder why when you go to a "new artist" show people are just standing there looking at them except for their homies who have heard the songs a million times? Because nobody in the audience can hear jack. Shows are the worst for breath control and consistency.

We never go to shows hoping to find a diamond in the rough. We go to shows to see if an artist that you are already interested in from hearing their finished records on the radio or at the office can perform and hold the attention of the crowd and raise the level of energy in the building.
No, I wouldn't know anything about those "new artist" shows. Because like you said, I've never been one.

I've had people come up to me after a show and give props for specific lines. And the greatest concerts I've been to had clear sound, with the audience reacting to good lines. Not to mention Scribble jam, Tourettes, and any other battle venues wouldn't be possible without clear sound. The ****tiest shows I've seen were like you said, usually due to a combo of ****ty soundmen, rappers, and mic's
Old 5th January 2011
  #92
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
They'd have smoother performances which could lead to higher ticket sales, and be more prepared to drop verses @ interviews which could gain fans. Are you saying they HAVE to punch in to make good music? Nas COULDN'T make equally great music without it?
You are shifting from punching in on records to performing at shows because you lost the punch in on records argument. Nice try. But.

Jay-z can only sell the building out once per show and his shows are damn smooth. SO is Nas, Outkast, Kanye, Common, etc. Just because you punch in on the record while recording it doesn't mean you dont' memorize that song in one or two listens after it's done. There isn't an artist alive who doesn't know their songs top to bottom - front to back, before they hit the stage.
Old 5th January 2011
  #93
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Id Ridden View Post
what we have here is a failure to communicate.

i am not talking about taking the easy way out, actually precisely the opposite. the problem is, is that i have a clear understanding of what i mean by punching in and obviously so do you.

sometimes we will write a bar or two or three or four of singing in the middle of a verse... while it can be done without punching in and can be replicated fine for a live performance, to make the song the best it can be, it is often wise to not record that part during the verse and to go back and punch it in... sometimes the same with a certain word or two or a sentence if you want to do it differently or just because songwise it needs to be said and the breath just makes it a little choppy or what have you, not always, but sometimes... it is 95% of the time pre-written for it in mind solely for the benefit of creating the best song possible.

when we use it, it is an artistic decision for the benefit of the song, nothing else... its not often but every once and awhile it just works.

the easy and lazy way out would be to go, aww f it, lets just do it in one take so we don't have to go back and do that part separately...

quite frankly i don't care what andre 3000 does, no offense to him his stuff and career speaks for itself, but i don't do what i do based on what other people are doing...
Punching in for a singing change mid verse is def more understandable than running out of breathe every 2-4 bars. And I agree with everything else you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popular Demand
When you record at that rate no one has time to wait for you to memorize a song you just wrote.

When the song is done you best believe that the song is learned front to back top to bottom before they even touch a stage. We are professionals. Just hearing the finished song once or twice and it's locked in.

On another note. It takes a lot of skill to be able to punch in and keep the proper tone, energy, and level and have it sound seemless. It's not unheard of for professionals to come back and change some lines a week or month later and keep the same tone, energy and level. Majority of new to rappin cats cannot do this. They prefer the one take approach because their skills are not up to par yet.
Sorry, please show me where anybody said anything about memory in here but you. Oh wait, it never happened. Were talking about being able to finish a 16 without stopping, whether reading off a blackberry or not.

And starting to record the new punch-in 10-15 seconds before the last cut off point while playing the previous track for the artist and having them rap along with it creates a seamless transition...but your a 'professional', so you already know that.
Old 5th January 2011
  #94
Lives for gear
 
ncoak's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
There isn't an artist alive who doesn't know their songs top to bottom - front to back, before they hit the stage.

kool keith heh
Old 5th January 2011
  #95
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
Punching in for a singing change mid verse is def more understandable than running out of breathe every 2-4 bars. And I agree with everything else you said

Hey, lets NOT fuel our own fire by adding unrelated trash, k? No ones said anything about memory. Were talking about being able to finish a 16 without stopping, whether reading off a blackberry or not.
You are the one who brought performances into a discussion to shift about punchin in on records. Not me.

I don't work with any rappers who don't have breathe control. Punchin in is not about breath control unless you are a baby rapper who is just starting out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
And since your the ultimate sophisticate professional, you already know that starting to record the new punch-in 10-15 seconds before the last cut off point while playing the previous track for the artist and having them rap along with it creates a seamless transition, right?
That is far from true unless you are one of those monotone rappers without range or dynamics and who rap the same on every song. Anyone here who has worked with artists on the professional level will tell you it's not about the transition as much as it is about keeping the same tone, energy, and level.
Old 5th January 2011
  #96
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncoak View Post
kool keith heh
I saw a few who were just drunk or extra high like Ol Dirty who slurred the whole Brooklyn Zoo and then stopped rappin at the old tunnel, nyc. But it still was poppin heh
Old 5th January 2011
  #97
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
You are shifting from punching in on records to performing at shows because you lost the punch in on records argument. Nice try. But.

Jay-z can only sell the building out once per show and his shows are damn smooth. SO is Nas, Outkast, Kanye, Common, etc. Just because you punch in on the record while recording it doesn't mean you dont' memorize that song in one or two listens after it's done. There isn't an artist alive who doesn't know their songs top to bottom - front to back, before they hit the stage.
Reading comprehension isn't one of your strong points I see. ALL of my posts in here have been about performing, and again, I never said anything about memory. Also, I've answered your question, while you've avoided mine.

A great artist will make great music. Whats better, making great music with punch ins, or without?
Old 5th January 2011
  #98
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
A great artist will make great music. Whats better, making great music with punch ins, or without?
Answered in my first statement on the issue- Who gives a damn? The final product is all that matters.

Only the hip hop purist/gatekeeper types think this way. Pen and Pad too I presume heh

We are going in circles here. You stick to your purist view I give you that but reality is what it is. I have to get back to work. Discussion was fun.
Old 5th January 2011
  #99
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
Answered in my first statement on the issue- Who gives a damn? The final product is all that matters.
Still avoiding I see. Dont worry buddy, it's ok to be wrong. Just learn from your mistakes : D


Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand
That is far from true unless you are one of those monotone rappers without range or dynamics and who rap the same on every song. Anyone here who has worked with artists on the professional level will tell you it's not about the transition as much as it is about keeping the same tone, energy, and level.
Your right, it has nothing to do with transition. Because transition does not mean moving from one point to another fluidly. If the artist your recording is talented, they will hear their voice in the headphones, remember the vibe, rap along, and match the tone perfectly before the punch in starts. It's not difficult if the artist is experianced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
Discussion was fun.
agreed : )
Old 5th January 2011
  #100
Gear Nut
 

damn this thread blew up.

ill just leave this here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zN6mEQ8m9A
Old 5th January 2011
  #101
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
They'd have smoother performances which could lead to higher ticket sales, and be more prepared to drop verses @ interviews which could gain fans. Are you saying they HAVE to punch in to make good music? Nas COULDN'T make equally great music without it?
Punching in or not punching in has little to nothing to do with how smooth the live performance is. Recording and performing are two completely different things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
I cant see why a punch would be used unless the artist didnt have the breath or energy to record a consistent verse. I cant see creativity in the easy way out.

A punch is used to perfect the recorded version. Its the exact opposite of the easy way out. Its taking the time to make sure every word, every syllable, every nuance of the recorded take is exactly how it should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
A great artist will make great music. Whats better, making great music with punch ins, or without?

It doesn't matter. Noone cares.
Old 5th January 2011
  #102
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
Punching in or not punching in has little to nothing to do with how smooth the live performance is. Recording and performing are two completely different things.
Damn you got me! Cause performing is NOT rapping the same material your recorded. F**k.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
A punch is used to perfect the recorded version. Its the exact opposite of the easy way out. Its taking the time to make sure every word, every syllable, every nuance of the recorded take is exactly how it should be.
Because they couldn't get it right the first time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
It doesn't matter. Noone cares.
Yes, everyone cares! : )


To be honest, I cant take this serious anymore. My stance really isn't THAT big of a deal anyway. The final product IS most important. Alot of artists punch in and sound fine when they perform solo, but my point is, plenty DON'T. THOSE are primarily the artists I'm talking about. The uncoordinated, gasping, sloppy souls with no foresight when writing, who depend on punches to maintain charisma in their verses. You CAN record EQUALLY great music if you DON'T use punches, and you'll have less problems on stage. IF you can punch in and can perform the whole verse solo, splendid. But you punched in for a reason. The ONLY reason to punch in is to do something you couldn't do in the original take. And that's typically due to writing without considering your limits or breath control.

Either way, its all good. I don't care anymore. Live long and prosper to all of you.
Old 5th January 2011
  #103
Gear Maniac
 
liotta soda's Avatar
 

Punching-in not on point?

U fools are nuts

Punchin in makes the verse sound better

No one does perfect takes

Weirdos
Old 6th January 2011
  #104
Lives for gear
 
Dayl's Avatar
First and most importantly, Rick rock and a couple other brought the good knowledge to this discussion and I actually learnt some good tips, thing I should have learnt a while back, thanks for sharing. A bulk of the posts seem to have gone off on a tangent or some peeps have completely missed the point but want to act like the 'get it' or know better.

Why would you, as an artist, not use punch-ins? to impress you? I'm more impressed with a tight final product.

There are a number of reasons why they are needed, it is clear that people got hung up on the every two bars thing as though the MC was lazy. There are other reasons too.

How about producing the best product possible with the tools you have, you listen back to a verse, hear a part that could be better or is in need of improvements, why wouldn't you redo it? but whew... thank Jesus that we have this punch in thing or I could be here all day...and that usually costs.

Its different but, like many (most?) people, I do this all the time, replace drums, bass tones or lead synth parts etc because as the track grows, sometimes an element stops fitting and needs to be changed, thats fine though, its part of the craft, but try and give a vocalist a bit of room to craft their final product and its an uproar.

Ridiculous
Old 6th January 2011
  #105
Lives for gear
 

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