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Punching-in not on point?
Old 3rd January 2011
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
I'm just gonna go ahead and reiterate this until people reply.

I'm new here, maybe that's why no ones responds. Most of you are debating and specifying intricate methods of mixing for an inherently problematic recording technique, instead of facing the root issue: punching in will hinder more than help your development as an artist. Why discuss how to effectively bash your head against a wall? Just stop doing it.
That's a very simple-minded way of thinking of things. There's absolutely nothing wrong with punching in, and I know many phenomenal(known) rappers who will gladly punch in while recording, not to mention a plethora of very talented artists of other genres and instruments.

Practicing and perfecting your craft is 1 thing, throwing away perfect takes due to shortage of breath, lack of rehearsal or whatever other variable for the sake of some mythical ethical standpoint is just stupid. Don't take this advice.

Not to mention I've worked with some emcees who write while their in the booth, sometimes as short as 2 bars at a time, thats a lack of talent? FOH.
Old 4th January 2011
  #62
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
It's not problematic at all. People have ALWAYS punched in. Before rap even existed, people were punching in. Dud it hinder the Beatles or Led Zepplin's artist development? Of course not

Rocking a show and making a hot record are two completely different things.
What would be better? Reciting the verse until all its nuances and rhythmic tonal changes are perfected and committed to memory, or a quick fix of broken fragmented bits? It's a choice. Further examples and speculative inquiry is useless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Studio507
That's a very simple-minded way of thinking of things. There's absolutely nothing wrong with punching in, and I know many phenomenal(known) rappers who will gladly punch in while recording, not to mention a plethora of very talented artists of other genres and instruments.

Practicing and perfecting your craft is 1 thing, throwing away perfect takes due to shortage of breath, lack of rehearsal or whatever other variable for the sake of some mythical ethical standpoint is just stupid. Don't take this advice.

Not to mention I've worked with some emcees who write while their in the booth, sometimes as short as 2 bars at a time, thats a lack of talent? FOH.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Da Vinci

I'm quoting because you'd disagree if I said my version. Raising the artistic bar to an unpopular plateau is not 'mythical'...it is practiced by artists with higher standards. As with school, you can cheat and take the easy route, but you wont learn anything, and will struggle later. Saying "sorry, but no" when a fan asks you to recite his favorite verse of yours because you cant finish it without gasping, is "just stupid". Your audience may be wowed by your exemplary stamina and breath control on record, but the praise is undue, as its not a real, linear time recording.

Jet Li in Unleashed vs Tony Ja in Ong Bak. Both visually stunning, but one has hidden strings attached, while the other is authentic physical ability. The masses respect both, but one is a simpler, truer, genuine talent.
Old 4th January 2011
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
What would be better? Reciting the verse until all its nuances and rhythmic tonal changes are perfected and committed to memory, or a quick fix of broken fragmented bits?
The fact is nobody cares. The end product is all that matters. That's all that's ever heard. You don't get style points.

When all you have to do is rap and you are not a real working entertainer it pretty easy to sit there and memorize your raps. Working artists have to deal with touring, travel, interviews, photo shoots, radio stops, feature verses, label biz, personal life, own album, etc. A working, charting artists can be working on at least 2 songs a day for weeks on end. 99% of those verses are written in the studio and punch ins are a part of the game. Always has been. Once you got the proper tone you are good money.

Don't get gassed by stories of the "great ones" never writing stuff down and not punchin' in. That myth has grown larger thru the years.
Old 4th January 2011
  #64
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atma's Avatar
i don't know what the point of this thread is..
Old 4th January 2011
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
The fact is nobody cares. The end product is all that matters. That's all that's ever heard. You don't get style points.

When all you have to do is rap and you are not a real working entertainer it pretty easy to sit there and memorize your raps. Working artists have to deal with touring, travel, interviews, photo shoots, radio stops, feature verses, label biz, personal life, own album, etc. A working, charting artists can be working on at least 2 songs a day for weeks on end. 99% of those verses are written in the studio and punch ins are a part of the game. Always has been. Once you got the proper tone you are good money.

Don't get gassed by stories of the "great ones" never writing stuff down and not punchin' in. That myth has grown larger thru the years.
THIS. IS. ALL. FACT. Thank you.
Old 4th January 2011
  #66
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liotta soda's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
Don't get gassed by stories of the "great ones" never writing stuff down and not punchin' in. That myth has grown larger thru the years.

finally someone in the industry says it

i been arguin this for years wit people

it sounds cool but it ain't true
Old 4th January 2011
  #67
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
The fact is nobody cares. The end product is all that matters. That's all that's ever heard. You don't get style points.

When all you have to do is rap and you are not a real working entertainer it pretty easy to sit there and memorize your raps. Working artists have to deal with touring, travel, interviews, photo shoots, radio stops, feature verses, label biz, personal life, own album, etc. A working, charting artists can be working on at least 2 songs a day for weeks on end. 99% of those verses are written in the studio and punch ins are a part of the game. Always has been. Once you got the proper tone you are good money.

Don't get gassed by stories of the "great ones" never writing stuff down and not punchin' in. That myth has grown larger thru the years.
How does any of this change the fact that its better to record verses without punching in?
Old 4th January 2011
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atma View Post
i don't know what the point of this thread is..
I think it's one of those "well whatever I do and think is best and you suck" kinda threads.

I agree with Populardemand. Punch in's are part of the game... The end product is what counts and anyone listening to the song that's not an engineer or records music doesn't know nor probably gives a sh!t whether there were punch in's or not.

For example, Vinnie Paz of Jedi Mind Tricks punches damn near every other line and it is blatantly obvious... however, I think he just got back from a european tour, makes his living doing music and has a solid underground fan base... and I don't think any of his fans would stop supporting his music if they found out he used punch ins.
Old 4th January 2011
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
How does any of this change the fact that its better to record verses without punching in?
Who says it's better? You? It's never been a fact in this industry since punch-ins became available. You may have some artsy view of how things are from afar but then there is reality that puts food on the table: the final product is all that matters and that's all anyone cares about.

Please enlighten us all on how Chronic 2001, Ready to Die, Stankonia, Me Against The World, etc would be better if they didn't punch in?

You remind me of a neighbor who believes rappers have to use pen and pad to write their rhymes and can't use blackberry/iphones heh
Old 4th January 2011
  #70
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
How does any of this change the fact that its better to record verses without punching in?
The same way it's "better" to leave a pitchy vocal without Autotune? Or an uneven drum track without Beat Detective?

They're just tools and techniques, and they're used on hundreds of great (and of course, not-so-great) records. As mentioned, how a record is made is totally irrelevant. It's the final product that matters to the audience, to the artist, to the label, to the engineer, to everyone except for the purists.

Even artists (of every genre) that can perform a complete take to satisfaction live use punch ins. It's a fact of life/recording.

Recordings are an illusion.
Old 4th January 2011
  #71
Gear Head
 

People in here have two main arguments defending punch ins

1. other people do it
2. it's part of the game

Neither of those change the fact that its more prudent and beneficial for an artist to write verses so you dont HAVE to punch in. None of these artists mentioned would say "Its better to depend heavily on a hypeman at shows, and not be able to rap solo". They punch in because its the norm, and they're busy. It's quick, easy, gets the job done, and they can move on to the next record. I get it.


Regardless, if they considered breath control and set a goal to record a verse nonstop, they'd have that initial experiance with the verse, the comfort of knowing they dont need help with it, and after practice would be able to recite it perfectly without interruption for interviews, on the spot requests, rehearsals, and shows.

One option is easier and faster, the other is harder with more reward.
Old 4th January 2011
  #72
Gear Head
 

My apologies for the double post, but I don't think I've clarified the other side of the coin. Let me add that I am not trying to refute its function, or discredit what its done for really great albums. I understand and appreciate it, and have recorded many artists that punch in.

My view is merely a preference, and certainly isn't gospel. With it being so unpopular, I probably shouldn't have been so bullheaded about it.

Either way, punching in is a choice, and i still think not doing so is the way to go. It only seems sensible, since it would lead to more fluid performances and stabilize your breath control further.
Old 4th January 2011
  #73
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illacov's Avatar
 

Yo seriously.

Are people trying to SAVE hip hop with this 1 thread?

*Sung to the tune of Rawhide as featured in the Original Blues Brothers movie (Belushi and Akroyd) :

Trollin trollin trollin keep them keyboards flowin'

trollin trollin trollin Gearslutzzzzzzzz!

You know Belmonts comin

Cuz you ain't sayin nothin

Trollin Trollin Trollin Gearslutz. (WHIP SOUND)

hehhehhehheh

And the Whammy goes to:

Peace
Illumination
Old 4th January 2011
  #74
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haha

i love these threads...

some verses are better with no punches, some demand punches...

if you are so stubborn holding to some notion that for it to be real hip-hop or whatever and refuse to punch, at least at the parts where it sounds like **** get some doubles and or bg's to help smooth it out, or, rewrite the thing, OR, just punch it... some verses are written for punches, at least you shouldn't just toss it out, if so, you are confining yourself, however, it shouldn't be a crutch...

that being said if you have to punch in every 2 bars all the time, it better be your first day on the mic...
Old 4th January 2011
  #75
Gear Head
 

It has nothing to do with purist belief and everything to do with helping yourself

You punch in, you might not be able to spit that verse solo.

You don't punch in, you will. Its that simple.
Old 4th January 2011
  #76
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If you can get it right with out punching in more power to you.Like the music used to be right?.Punching in came about in the sixties ok.Loads of great solos done before then.No multytracking either.ha ha.But all dance/rap styles are manufactured.So theres some good info on this thread.Thanx
Old 4th January 2011
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
It has nothing to do with purist belief and everything to do with helping yourself.
Still waiting for you to explain how Stankonia, Ready To Die, Chronic 2001, Me Against The World, Get Rich or Die Tryin, College Dropout, etc. would be better if they didn't punch in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs View Post
But all dance/rap styles are manufactured.So theres some good info on this thread.Thanx
All musical genres are manufactured since the technology has been available decades ago. We spent days comping and tuning vocals from many of the greatest singers ever before DAWs. There has always been smoke and mirrors in music and film and all people care about is the final product.
Old 4th January 2011
  #78
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
Still waiting for you to explain how Stankonia, Ready To Die, Chronic 2001, Me Against The World, Get Rich or Die Tryin, College Dropout, etc. would be better if they didn't punch in?

I wont deny the fact that a lot of great music wouldn't have been possible without punching in. Not doing so is a limitation, and if it was a rule applied to all music it would require a reworking of the recording and creative process. It has become a technological staple, and thus is a crutch. The end product is most important, but punching in will never strengthen an artists abilities.

Who's more talented?....a girl talking blandly into a mic who's voice is then doctored into a nice dynamic vocal, or an artist who can sing great naturally?

Artistic contribution is shifting from singers to engineers. It's inevitable, and its sad.
Old 4th January 2011
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
It has nothing to do with purist belief and everything to do with helping yourself

You punch in, you might not be able to spit that verse solo.

You don't punch in, you will. Its that simple.
lol

pretty much every hip-hop show i have ever seen results in zero replication of the recorded material... there is always major gaps, often times with no one else filling it in, or perhaps the hype man filling in who always seems to be way louder then everyone else... not to mention the crowd could totally care less nor do they even notice...

it is a disservice to the art form to not utilize the punch in when it can help to improve the song... again it should not be used as a crutch, only when it helps improve an already dynamite verse.

it's purist belief absolutely and to not utilize the punch in would be a classic case of not helping yourself through denial...

we can just agree to disagree on this one. heh
Old 4th January 2011
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
but punching in will never strengthen an artists abilities.
So Nas, Andre 3000, Jay-Z, etc. have weak artistic abilities because they punch in? Stop it please.
Old 4th January 2011
  #81
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so i was about to hire this contractor to build my house, and get this - he shows up with like backhoes and nail guns and ****. i was all like, 'aw hell naw, i keeps it real!' sent him packin and dug the foundation out myself with my bare hands. didn't even use no squares throwing up the frame, i just eyeballed it, nailed everything together manually with a good sized rock. yeah my house is unsafe and crooked as **** but i was true to the game, son!
Old 5th January 2011
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post

All musical genres are manufactured since the technology has been available decades ago. We spent days comping and tuning vocals from many of the greatest singers ever before DAWs. There has always been smoke and mirrors in music and film
Of course all music production is contrived and composed.But a solo is a solo.If you start breaking up the rhythm it disturbs the flow!!!This chopped up effect is now part of the <SOUND>.I refuse to believe we cannot exist with out constantly stopping and redoing.When you take your shiit out live you better be able to jam on it.Mind you,i dont rap,only improvise for long periods(sax,ect)Obviously punching in efficiantly keeps a flow going and is certainly an essential skill thumbsup


Quote:
and all people care about is the final product.
The final product is also your performance as a rapper,player ect in the live context(especially nowadays)No ones going to wait around for you to be cut back in on stage huh.But hey,i forgot,this is engineering and production forum.PeAcE
Old 5th January 2011
  #83
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
So Nas, Andre 3000, Jay-Z, etc. have weak artistic abilities because they punch in? Stop it please.
No, but they would be stronger if they didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Id Ridden
pretty much every hip-hop show i have ever seen results in zero replication of the recorded material... there is always major gaps, often times with no one else filling it in, or perhaps the hype man filling in who always seems to be way louder then everyone else... not to mention the crowd could totally care less nor do they even notice...

it is a disservice to the art form to not utilize the punch in when it can help to improve the song... again it should not be used as a crutch, only when it helps improve an already dynamite verse.

it's purist belief absolutely and to not utilize the punch in would be a classic case of not helping yourself through denial...

we can just agree to disagree on this one. heh
Your first paragraph just confirms what I'm saying. And the crowd, especially any scouts, would def notice if the artist were more clear and consistent.

Your second paragraph also supports what I'm saying, since every single punch in is a crutch.

Is setting yourself up for smoother performances really considered purist here???

Look at the big simple picture. A great artist is a great artist. He/she will make great music regardless of equipment or effects. If punching in were unavailable, they would still make equally great music, AND be able to perform it better.

This cant get anymore fundamental than that.

Then again, like Goa-Dubs said, this is the engineering forum. Alot of you get paid to do what i'm suggesting you dont. Of course you'll defend it.
Old 5th January 2011
  #84
The points you raise are all good, and totally valid, but one thing worth considering is that the technology offered by the studio (in this case, punching in) allows artists to write songs that otherwise couldn't be written. Not EVERY song needs to be performable.

Hell, if it weren't for a sampling -- a technology that many consider "cheating", the same way you might consider punching in a crutch -- there'd be no hip hop. Technology allows for new kinds of creativity, and new kinds of songs to be created. Again, in separating the emcee from the songwriter, not every song needs to be able to be recreated live.
Old 5th January 2011
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
Your first paragraph just confirms what I'm saying. And the crowd, especially any scouts, would def notice if the artist were more clear and consistent.

Your second paragraph also supports what I'm saying, since every single punch in is a crutch.

Is setting yourself up for smoother performances purist???

Look at the big simple picture. A great artist is a great artist. He/she will make great music regardless of equipment or effects. If punching in were unavailable, they would still make equally great music, AND be able to perform it better.

but not every artist is a performer either...

either you believe the record and live performance should be identical or you believe they are different mediums...

not every punch is a crutch, not at all... you have obviously never creatively used a punch to enhance the song, otherwise you would understand that at times it can be the best thing to do.

also most live shows are chaotic, energy, loud, its about the vibe, the feeling, not about the smoothness and purity of every verse and syllable... its about putting on a show and transmitting that energy... if smoothness is the most important thing then lets have every artists sit in a chair with no movement at all, to make sure it doesn't sound the least bit labored and to make sure the microphone stays precisely at the same spot...

if laces were unavailable people would still wear velcro shoes and walk fine, but laces so very often look much better and they are available so people use laces...

anyways, its also no good if everyone does and believes the same thing so really just keep doing your thing man...
Old 5th January 2011
  #86
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Id Ridden View Post
but not every artist is a performer either...

either you believe the record and live performance should be identical or you believe they are different mediums...

not every punch is a crutch, not at all... you have obviously never creatively used a punch to enhance the song, otherwise you would understand that at times it can be the best thing to do.

also most live shows are chaotic, energy, loud, its about the vibe, the feeling, not about the smoothness and purity of every verse and syllable... its about putting on a show and transmitting that energy... if smoothness is the most important thing then lets have every artists sit in a chair with no movement at all, to make sure it doesn't sound the least bit labored and to make sure the microphone stays precisely at the same spot...

if laces were unavailable people would still wear velcro shoes and walk fine, but laces so very often look much better and they are available so people use laces...

anyways, its also no good if everyone does and believes the same thing so really just keep doing your thing man...
I doubt Andre 3000 was recording and said "f**k it, that was going great guys, but lets just stop" I cant see why a punch would be used unless the artist didnt have the breath or energy to record a consistent verse. I cant see creativity in the easy way out.

And yes, overall energy and entertainment at shows takes precedent over vocal clarity, but it shouldnt be a one-or-the-other thing. If your hypeman falls in a volcano, you should be able to rap your verses solo without suffocating and skipping bars.

Def agreed with the bold though. + 1
Old 5th January 2011
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
No, but they would be stronger if they didn't.
Please explain how Nas, Andre 3000, Kanye, Jay-Z, etc. would be stronger if they didn't punch in. Please don't give me no artistic dribble. Tell me how much more successful in the careers they would be if they didn't punch in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
And the crowd, especially any scouts, would def notice if the artist were more clear and consistent.
You have never been to or done a show I see. You can't hear a single damn word at a show or concert. People sing along because they know the words already. You ever wonder why when you go to a "new artist" show people are just standing there looking at them except for their homies who have heard the songs a million times? Because nobody in the audience can hear jack. Shows are the worst for breath control and consistency.

We never go to shows hoping to find a diamond in the rough. We go to shows to see if an artist that you are already interested in from hearing their finished records on the radio or at the office can perform and hold the attention of the crowd and raise the level of energy in the building.
Old 5th January 2011
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
I cant see creativity in the easy way out.
what we have here is a failure to communicate.

i am not talking about taking the easy way out, actually precisely the opposite. the problem is, is that i have a clear understanding of what i mean by punching in and obviously so do you.

sometimes we will write a bar or two or three or four of singing in the middle of a verse... while it can be done without punching in and can be replicated fine for a live performance, to make the song the best it can be, it is often wise to not record that part during the verse and to go back and punch it in... sometimes the same with a certain word or two or a sentence if you want to do it differently or just because songwise it needs to be said and the breath just makes it a little choppy or what have you, not always, but sometimes... it is 95% of the time pre-written for it in mind solely for the benefit of creating the best song possible.

when we use it, it is an artistic decision for the benefit of the song, nothing else... its not often but every once and awhile it just works.

the easy and lazy way out would be to go, aww f it, lets just do it in one take so we don't have to go back and do that part separately...

quite frankly i don't care what andre 3000 does, no offense to him his stuff and career speaks for itself, but i don't do what i do based on what other people are doing...
Old 5th January 2011
  #89
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atma's Avatar
i dunno man.. i remember seeing notorious BIG live here way back in the day, and you could hear every verse articulated perfectly.
Old 5th January 2011
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs View Post
The final product is also your performance as a rapper,player ect in the live context(especially nowadays)No ones going to wait around for you to be cut back in on stage huh.But hey,i forgot,this is engineering and production forum.PeAcE
You missed the reasoning behind punchin in as I stated.
Quote:
Working artists have to deal with touring, travel, interviews, photo shoots, radio stops, feature verses, label biz, personal life, own album, etc. A working, charting artists can be working on at least 2 songs a day for weeks on end. 99% of those verses are written in the studio and punch ins are a part of the game.
When you record at that rate no one has time to wait for you to memorize a song you just wrote.

When the song is done you best believe that the song is learned front to back top to bottom before they even touch a stage. We are professionals. Just hearing the finished song once or twice and it's locked in.

On another note. It takes a lot of skill to be able to punch in and keep the proper tone, energy, and level and have it sound seemless. It's not unheard of for professionals to come back and change some lines a week or month later and keep the same tone, energy and level. Majority of new to rappin cats cannot do this. They prefer the one take approach because their skills are not up to par yet.
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