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Punching-in not on point?
Old 31st December 2010
  #31
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s.d.finley's Avatar
Punching-in not on point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igotsoul4u

BTW If you can't spit an entire verse you are whack. Every two bar punches is so lame.
^
this!
Old 1st January 2011
  #32
Bone Thugs n Harmony. Or Twista

They smoke weed and rap fast. They do use plenty of PUNCH IN. Still professional, still great writers. If you don't believe it, spit a twista verse, start to finish, don't loose breath maintain volume, & pronounce it all correctly and then think of how loud your breathing is because on the CD they are not breathing hard - Wow I wonder how it's done??? Punch In ! ! !

2 tracks works best to me.
track 1: Rap 2 Bars, skip 2 Bars
track 2: fill in the empty spots

Then take both tracks 1 & 2 and send/bounce/bus them to another track with a compressor plug-in. This SHOULD even out the difference in vocal tone and dynamics behavior. If you use seperate compressors on each track they will continue to act independantly and won't blend to sound like "1 Take".
Old 1st January 2011
  #33
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illacov's Avatar
 

You'll know you did your job right when you eventually forget where your punch ins are in the recording.

I usually forget after the first day of listening.

I think punch ins/composites etc...are just well executed recording technique.

Can you imagine Gimme Some Mo without punching in?

Big Pun did composites, a lot of people have. However I've heard some pretty bad ones on CLASSIC recordings.

I'll go first.

Wu Tang Clan Forever - AWESOME AWESOME album. Has anybody ever peeped some of U God's punch ins? But - nonetheless DOPE DOPE DOPE album.

With some really funny punch ins lol.

Peace
Illumination
Old 1st January 2011
  #34
g22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
As for setting up punch points, I don't bother. I'm sure at some point in time I've done it once or twice. I just do it manually. My ears and finger are more damn accurate than any punch locator LOL!
yea, whats all the fuss about? Just click where you want to do another take and press record.

I like to copy anything good to a new track as a backup just in case,before I punch in again, but other than that, this isnt rocket science.
Old 1st January 2011
  #35
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liotta soda's Avatar
 

Punching-in not on point?

Funniest sounding punch ins are raekwons
Old 1st January 2011
  #36
Gear Head
 

As with everything, foresight should be priority. You should always be prepared to rock a show solo if needed, or drop a verse on the spot. Punching in is a short sighted, easy-way-out, lazy method.

Structure your verses so you can recite them in one shot. I've had friends who could rap gatling gun fast for 30 seconds without taking a breath. Then you have Lil Wayne, who spits 8 words per bar, and punches in every 16 words. The more you give yourself difficult tests, the easier it becomes. Dont be short sighted.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #37
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Danny Downer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall Oliver View Post
Alot of guys (big name or not) aren't that good. Doesn't mean you won't sell. But as far as artistically goes, not being able to rap a full verse, let alone a full song, is wacky McWackington.
Damn right my man! Back in the days you just simply had too!

It's not cool if ur backup needs to rap every third line on stage cuz u run outta breath! How u gon cypher man? Serious this still is Hip Hop somehow ^^
Old 2nd January 2011
  #38
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Maybe Im missing something here, and you can totally correct me, MG.

Why be concerned with punch-in times? Cant you just make a new track and record the dude at the time he's supposed to sing that part.

So what if you end up with say, one main vocal track and then like 3 tracks underneath that of punch-ins here and there? I dont know why people would want to destructively punch-in over pre-recorded audio instead of making things easier and just opening a new track. I mean, youll see the waveform and know right where its supposed to be. I dont get what the fuss here is.

I personally think the whole "punch-in" paradigm of destructively recording over material is a total left-over from the pre-digital era. Why "punch-in"? Why trouble yourself with getting timings of the "punch-in" right? Make a new track and hit record....right?

Is this a HipHop thing Im totally not aware of? Could be, im just sayin, from my corner its sounds like its over-complicating your session if you worry about that kind of thing. Cant just make a new track and hit record?
Old 2nd January 2011
  #39
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rickrock305's Avatar
 

Punching-in not on point?

Well first, in any DAW I've ever used punching in is not destructive. You are not altering the file you're recording over, you are simply creating a new one that may overlap.

And as for creating new tracks... Most decent engineers take pride in the neatness of a session and the speed in which they accomplish things. If you have a couple tracks for one lead vocal, by the time youve done doubles and stacks it's gonna end up a freaking mess by the time all your vocals are done. So recording on one track keeps your session a bit more organized. Second, DAWs automatically name the files based on the track name which they were recorded on. I want all my lead vocals to be named appropriately and sequentially numbered. And third, punching in is simply faster. By the time you've created or armed another track, I've already edited and crossfaded the previous punch and am about to punch in again. Artists appreciate not having to wait around on the engineer in the middle of their verse.

So for me, there are a lot of reasons to punch in an be good at it.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #40
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illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
Well first, in any DAW I've ever used punching in is not destructive. You are not altering the file you're recording over, you are simply creating a new one that may overlap.

And as for creating new tracks... Most decent engineers take pride in the neatness of a session and the speed in which they accomplish things. If you have a couple tracks for one lead vocal, by the time youve done doubles and stacks it's gonna end up a freaking mess by the time all your vocals are done. So recording on one track keeps your session a bit more organized. Second, DAWs automatically name the files based on the track name which they were recorded on. I want all my lead vocals to be named appropriately and sequentially numbered. And third, punching in is simply faster. By the time you've created or armed another track, I've already edited and crossfaded the previous punch and am about to punch in again. Artists appreciate not having to wait around on the engineer in the middle of their verse.

So for me, there are a lot of reasons to punch in an be good at it.
In Reaper I just have 3 or 4 identical tracks at the ready.

If there is a punch in needed or thats the plan then we perform the punch ins with adequate pre roll and once they are all completed, the punch ins, mains etc are made into one track unless there are intentionally overlapping phrases.

That way I usually wind up with 1 track per verse and I can just do clip automation for any volume differences that need to be balanced. Sounds great and takes all of a few seconds to do.

I do it the way rick is talking about too at times but I find the first way I mentioned to be a bit more flexible for my workflow.

Any method is are great if they work for you.

Peace
Illumination
Old 2nd January 2011
  #41
Gear Nut
 
Griffin Avid's Avatar
 

By the time you've created or armed another track, I've already edited and crossfaded the previous punch and am about to punch in again. Artists appreciate not having to wait around on the engineer in the middle of their verse.

I don't do any of that live. I usually just slide the newly recorded track down 1 lane and when you record again my DAW just adds 01, 02, 03 to the end of the original file so it's very well organized. Other than that I never let the artist choose the splice point. I choose that by ear AFTER they've done the section over again.

You can also just drag the end of the file to shorten it to just before the error occurred so it's totally non-destructive.

It's funny to see this thread about recording vocals invaded by cyphering emcees and such.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #42
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"Most decent engineers take pride in the neatness of a session and the speed in which they accomplish things. If you have a couple tracks for one lead vocal, by the time youve done doubles and stacks it's gonna end up a freaking mess by the time all your vocals are done."

Well, I certainly agree - a fool would make a "mess", not an engineer. But I think neatness of a session, which is something im very very big about, can be accomplished at different speeds and at different proficiency, know what I mean? Some guy might be faster, as well as keep a high prerogative for a clean session, using "Method B". Every one works a little different. It would be hard to beat me pressing Alt+T for a new track then saying "Go" to the singer, then pressing Alt+R if youre gonna be doing crossfades and ...wait....why are you doing crossfades? Oh...patched in sections requiring MORE WORK like crossfades. Youre editing during the session?

Id argue any time spent "editing" or doing "crossfades" is time spent making the artist stand there. Certainly taking more time in the session than just clicking right before the spot where theyre to come in on a new track, telling him "Go", clicking Record, and then properly editing the session later on. My .02 ~ and again comes the point about different peoples speed, I guess, because yes, perhaps virtually no time would be lost doing this by someone super-proficient at it, but on paper....it sure sounds like it would.
Old 2nd January 2011
  #43
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rickrock305's Avatar
 

Punching-in not on point?

I'm doing crossfades while the preroll to the punch is playing
Old 2nd January 2011
  #44
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i'm still trying to figure out why a rapper can't get more than 2 bars out

**** does make sense
Old 2nd January 2011
  #45
Gear Nut
 
Griffin Avid's Avatar
 

I don't know how the word CAN'T got inserted.
I don't remember a session engineer ever saying can't.

I think the assumption was since they don't do a thing, it must mean they can't. It was then exaggerated to the point of ridiculous.

Like I said, it's the weird mix of proficiency and experience levels on this forum that accounts for most of these strange tangents.

And I can explain it to you.

A lyricist who doesn't record much gets to marinate on his verses. As an emcee, he just kicks them all the time. Very well memorized. You get in the studio and spit OLD verses. No paper needed.

Most of those 'songs' are the combination of a bunch of verses. That's why there are so many great emcees that have weak songs.

Next level is writing for a theme or on-the-spot. There comes a point where your rhyme book (or memorized catalog) doesn't cover every situation. So you write, sometimes in the studio- while another person is laying down their verse, you are still writing/formulating yours. You memorize parts of it and record 'perfection' in small sections.

Off-the-head stems from running out of rhymes or people getting tired of hearing the same verses week after week or show after show. You also want to change-up your rhymes to be modern, current and relevant to the moment. Are you still using the analogy/metaphor about a player who's been traded to a different team? Using old slang? etc...

One-Take techniques stem from OLD and many times- previously recorded verses. Seems impressive at first, but a lot of times those same cats struggle with newer verses that haven't had time to age and have all the kinks worked out from repeat drops. Live Verses and Cyphers are great, but those ALWAYS have rough spots. When it's there in front of you it's okay to have some rough parts. When it's a record that I'm listening to a hundred times, those little rough parts really begin to stick out.

If any of this sounds foreign and it must since so many "MCs" seemed to be confused about recording vocals in a proper studio- I'll attribute it to a lack of real-world experience. As any kind of rapper with a descent catalog, you'll have different verses for different situations. If you spit the SAME TYPE of verses in every situation you find yourself in, then that's a whole 'nother thread about artist development.

Every facet of music production is an art-form. There is an art to capturing vocals. If you are concerned about Keeping It Real, then you shouldn't ever mix your records because it wasn't recorded at those volumes/levels. You should never Master your Mixes because that's cheating too. You would sound like an idiot carrying that same level of anal-retentive-purist approach to all the other aspects of your production.

Recording Vocals is worthy of the same attention to detail.
ALL of the biggest rappers grew up from being emcees. Even some of the universally regarded as corny rappers- if you search far enough back, you'll find real skills buried in their history.

I can go to any street corner in NYC and find a talented Emcee and Rapper. A Recording ARTIST is a much deeper search.

How many guys on this forum rap?
How many put out records?
How many have at least one decent review?

To knit-pick over something as simple as recording techniques says that a lot of dudes don't need to be on such a niche forum and they might be better served over on a general rap forum. This is right up with with though-proving and profound topics like "How many beats do you make a day?" "How do you name your beats?" "How many verses should a rapper write a week?" "How often should I punch in?"
Old 3rd January 2011
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
I'm doing crossfades while the preroll to the punch is playing
Lol, ok.

Funny, cuz Im pretty sure you were promoting doing extra little things like "editing" and "crossfades" during the tracking session till I pointed out it was "during the session" which, time-wise as we're talkng about, a big tutt

What youre still not admitting to or perhaps thinking many here do NOT do digital recording for some reason, the only reason youre doing "crossfades" is to put clips next to each other or fit them in a section of another pre-existing track file.

Thats wasting time. Open a new track, hit record, tell the guy "go" then do your editing NOT during the tracking session. Thanks
Old 3rd January 2011
  #47
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

Punching-in not on point?

How is it wasting time if I'm not using any time to do it? I'm doing these things while other things are happening, like preroll to the next punch. It's called multitasking, I know being that you're a guitar player you know nothing about efficiency heh


Truthfully, you are just an asshole, always trying to take shots at people. Time to come down from your imaginary pedestal, focus on playing your guitar a little better, and stop patting yourself on the back about some awards that noones ever heard of an leave the real work to the folks that know how to do it.

Again, by the time you've opened your new track, creating a mess of a session, ive already crossfaded my last punch and am punching in on the next line. Then while you're busy editing all your sloppiness together at the end of the session, I'm killing the rough mix and I've finished before you even thought about adjusting a level. This is what I do. And youre gonna talk to me about wasting time? Ha! Play your guitar and shut the **** up
Old 3rd January 2011
  #48
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s.d.finley's Avatar
Punching-in not on point?

Bone thugs and Do or Die are the exceptions to the rule. Only if all rappers were that good yes? Well everybody isn't that good. Those guys rep less than 1/2% of the rappers.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #49
Gear Addict
 
DozerMayne's Avatar
 

Set your punch in...

1. Set the left locator(or the now time marker) to the position where you want recording to start.

2.
Activate the Punch In button on the Transport panel.

Punch In activated
3.
Activate playback from some position before the left
locator. Which is the point that you just set for the punch in.

When the project cursor reaches the left locator, recording is automatically activated.

You will be able to hear the end of the last recording, because you have started playback, and Cubase knows that since you set the punch in point, that that is where it will automatically start recording..

You can also set a punch out time by putting the "now time indicator" where you want to punch out, and clicking the Punch Out button to set that time for the punch out...
But I would just worry about the punch in...and press the spacebar to stop the recording...which also stops playback.

Or

You can just have 2 tracks for each vocal element,
Lead 1
Lead 2
Overdub 1
Overdub 2
Ect..Ect...

Record to Lead 1, and then disarm the track you just recorded to, then jump down and arm the other track, Lead 2, record, then jump back up to the Lead 1 track, arm for recording....ect...till your verse is done...

Just know that punching in alot of times during the verse, at different times, your voice may sound different, or you may have changed something.....You will then hear the differences in the take...though as long as you can sound the same, and not alot of time passes,,,you will be good.

Some parts you will have no choice but to punch in on another track, because the part of the verse has an overlap....
Now, of course, no one can say two words at the same time, and its not natural, but if it sounds good, you do you..if thats what your after in that verse.

Cubase 5 also has various "Cycle Record Modes" and allows you to repeat/cycle record a bar or as much as you want. It then records each pass to the same track, but splits the track into "lanes".
You can then comp right within the lanes, and remove the parts you dont like and keep the ones you do like..then collapse the lanes...its in the manual..
Old 3rd January 2011
  #50
Lives for gear
 

Punching-in not on point?

I have nothing to add, except that I agree with RickRock 100%. and I record a lot of different rappers. Only ever encountered 1 that wanted to overlap on punches.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
I know being that you're a guitar player you know nothing about efficiency heh


Truthfully, you are just an asshole, always trying to take shots at people. Time to come down from your imaginary pedestal, focus on playing your guitar a little better, and stop patting yourself on the back about some awards that noones ever heard of an leave the real work to the folks that know how to do it.

This is what I do. And youre gonna talk to me about wasting time? Ha! Play your guitar and shut the **** up
Sorry, but thats exactly my issue with you, always taking shots at people. In fact, look how personal youve made this disagreement. It must be mutual. We'll just have to agree not to be fond of each other. Maybe im just poking a bit back at you. Youre easily excited and quick to argue.

You can call me an "asshole" because, from your description, it was my opinion that your method might take more time, but it rather reflects on you. In fact, your whole little retort there thats full of personal insults is quite immature. The argument itself is foolish since its hard to assume that most any one method spoken about in a forum thread could ever truly reveal if the person is either taking too much time or if in fact theyre running a messy session. So, your level of angst about being "right" says a lot about your need to be "the one who is right". If I take shots, its because Ive seen that person taking shots more than once.

You must feel pretty offended to throw in so many targeted insults. If you have any others, feel free. But saying I dont multi-task or play multiple instruments means you really dont know what youre talking about. Pretty much negating anything else. Take care.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #52
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

Thanks for the psychoanalysis there Dr Drew. I guess psychiatry is another one of those things you pretend to be good at. heh

Easily excited and offended? HAHAHA Come on man, your ego is out of control.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
Thanks for the psychoanalysis there Dr Drew. I guess psychiatry is another one of those things you pretend to be good at. heh

Easily excited and offended? HAHAHA Come on man, your ego is out of control.
No, psyche isnt really my forte'. Thanks, I guess. But yes, you are easy to excite and quick to insult -thats not a lie.

We're just at opposite poles. I would argue the same of your ego. I do work with enough professional producers and musicians to know, for the most part, who I should listen to. I also know when a guy is trying to knock me down a peg even though I have musical results to actually show. Again, to denote I do not play multiple instruments really lets me know this is no-one I need listen to. Ive been around the block enough to see when thats an issue.

Consider taking your own ego about being the guy that hits the record button while the musicians lay down the real work and then quantify things properly. Thats my rather snarky, but counterpoint advice to what youre trying to tell me. As I said, opposite poles. I do apologize for the trainwreck, but I cant just let you openly insult myself and efforts without saying something. Since thats my peace, say anything youd like. I wont reply.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #54
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I know a rapper here that likes to go 4 bars at a time. I always clown him cus that is wack. If you really can't get a solid performance and punching is that difficult, why don't you just have the rapper record as many takes as he can going 8 bars x 2 (16 bars i am assuming)? Then you just comp.

I don't know what is up with artists these days but when i was coming up as a new artist, if the engineer told my producer that a punch in point was too difficult to sound natural, my producer would just look at me and say, "sing it again." No questions- it was expected of me to be able to do that.

A pro movie actor can deliver the same line the same way with the same movements for different camera angles. Most pro recording artists should be able to spit the same line exactly the same every time (there are exceptions). Or else how would you do doubles if needed?
Old 3rd January 2011
  #55
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Stoneface's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin Avid View Post
[I][B]ll.

Rap doesn't suck today. Only older cats or throwbacks believe that.
This is a joke right?

Rap music does suck...because rap fails to evolve. It continues to go backwards. It continues to be dominated by youngsters who talk about things that only young people like or relate to. This is not only obvious in the 3rd grade rhymes of today but also in the childlike production as well. If that's what you're into...I'm sure you think rap music of today is great! Fortunately, these same cats aren't selling records.

Problem is, todays rap dosen't represent the majority of people who like rap music. Keeping rap music young was a great strategy before internet downloads because kids bought the most records. Now in 2011, that's the wrong focus because kids steal more music than anyone plus...kids are broke and have little to no moral values and could care less if you make any money or not. Bottomline, making kiddie raps is fine if you don't want to make any real money at it.

If people realistically want to be successful in the future with rap music, it's the older generation that needs to step up and start creating and speaking with a purpose. Rap is the only genre that considers 30 a "retirement" age. R&B, Rock, Country, etc...you can do until your dead. Strange huh?

That's our fault...but that's the blessing and curse of internet downloads...if you want people to support you, you better start creating for the masses of rap fans...and now that it's 2011, that equates to millions over 30. Yes, it's difficult to target kids when you're over 30 but why in the hell would you want to? Make music that grown folks can relate to and they will support you. This is your rap fan base. Plus, they're the ones with all the money. If some kids are smart enough to follow grown topics well, that's a win in the battle against kiddie rap and I assure you...with consistancy, the tides will turn.

Don't believe me...the proof is in the pudding. Out of the top 50 acts of 2010...only 2 in the rap catagory are truly under 30. Lil' Wayne is on the edge but...he's a kiddie rapper all day. (Source: Billboard)

3rd - Eminem Age 38
7th - Black Eyes Peas Will.I.AM and Ferggie are both well over 30.
10th - Drake - Age 24
17th - Ludacris Age 33
20th- Lil' Wayne Age-29
26th - Jay-Z Age 41
35th - Niki Minaj Age 26
42nd - Timbaland Age 39
44th - Snoop Dogg Age 39

You would think with the amount of crap on the radio and MTV/BET that more youngsters would be on this list...but it just goes to show you that people may play your songs...but that doesn't mean they are going to buy them. Why? Because it IS crap. In addition...this is the BEST that rap music has to offer. Looking at this list....that's a damn shame.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
I'm doing crossfades while the preroll to the punch is playing
You might already know this, but if you're using Pro Tools, you can set it to automatically create a fade in, fade out, and/or cross-fade any time you throw an armed track into or out of record while the transport is moving. In other words, you get an automatic crossfade the instant you punch in and the instant you punch out. Pretty groovy stuff.



Ras Cricket - I can guarantee you that rick's way of working is worlds faster, at least on Pro Tools. As he said, while you're creating a new track, naming it, setting I/O, and arming it, he's already on to punching the next section.

While you're sliding regions around and cross-fading across multiple tracks to comp a master take on a single track, he's closing his session and doing backups.

While you're deleting all the extra tracks you used to punch in on, removing unneeded audio, and doing general clean-up on your session, he's on the bus halfway home.

And the best thing is, he's done it all without interrupting the flow of the session, totally transparent to the artist. Your approach requires frequent stops and starts, and then (probably worst of all) everyone has to wait around while you comp a performance together so the artist and producer can figure out if you have a master take. I'm sorry, but I fail to see how your approach can possibly work faster, smoother, or easier.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #57
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

Punching-in not on point?

Yea, I'm aware of the auto fade feature. I just prefer to do it manually. Peace of mind I guess lol
Old 3rd January 2011
  #58
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

Punching-in not on point?

And Ras, it's not an ego. It's simply confidence in my abilities and knowing that I'm good at what I do.

You felt the need to get ****ty with my after I pulled your card regarding your lack of knowledge on how your DAW works. Only then did I have to knock you down a little. because when someone like yourself is comparing themselves to Ken Lewis, yea you need to be checked
Old 3rd January 2011
  #59
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE View Post
You should always be prepared to rock a show solo if needed, or drop a verse on the spot. Punching in is a short sighted, easy-way-out, lazy method.

Structure your verses so you can recite them in one shot. I've had friends who could rap gatling gun fast for 30 seconds without taking a breath. Then you have Lil Wayne, who spits 8 words per bar, and punches in every 16 words. The more you give yourself difficult tests, the easier it becomes. Dont be short sighted.

I'm just gonna go ahead and reiterate this until people reply.

I'm new here, maybe that's why no ones responds. Most of you are debating and specifying intricate methods of mixing for an inherently problematic recording technique, instead of facing the root issue: punching in will hinder more than help your development as an artist. Why discuss how to effectively bash your head against a wall? Just stop doing it.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #60
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

Punching-in not on point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterE


I'm just gonna go ahead and reiterate this until people reply.

I'm new here, maybe that's why no ones responds. Most of you are debating and specifying intricate methods of mixing for an inherently problematic recording technique, instead of facing the root issue: punching in will hinder more than help your development as an artist. Why discuss how to effectively bash your head against a wall? Just stop doing it.

It's not problematic at all. People have ALWAYS punched in. Before rap even existed, people were punching in. Dud it hinder the Beatles or Led Zepplin's artist development? Of course not

Rocking a show and making a hot record are two completely different things.
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