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Dr. Dre's Loudness
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #91
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Maybe you should read Bob Katz's mastering book then... Everything is capable of errors and imperfections... When you're doing something as important as reproducing a CD, you want to make sure that the quality is as high as you can get. That's why you take the time to test the medium you're writing to in order to make sure it's up to snuff. Like he says, every little step in quality matters. When you're a mastering engineer, that means being obsessively picky about *every* little part of the chain, from the wiring in the room through every transfer, connection, and conversion made, down to the medium you write the final product to.

Look up 'BLER' and read about why it exists and why it's necessary. Mastering is much more than just EQ and Limiting and the more 'glamorous' tasks you hear about; Quality control is an essential part of the mastering process.
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtg View Post
Okay, I realize I am calling out one of the top engineers in the business here, but you HAVE to be kidding me.
I don´t know a damn thing about mixing or mastering. But as far as I remember correctly, there are three ways to write a CD.

Audio, data or both.

While your CD player can jump back and forth until it reads the DATA correctly, cause it can work in vari speed (the difference between the length of a cd x 10MB minus the DATA you can print on it, is the error correction data/directories space,etc...), your CD player can´t when its playing AUDIO. It can´t "look ahead".
It has to read the data correctly, otherwise it SKIPS or POPS.

Why? Because it "processes" the data in REAL TIME (not vari speed, speed is 1). So it´s not unimportant which medium you choose. There is also such a thing as a "digital dropout", when you "distort" a signal beyond a digital mediums "dynamic" limit. Mastering engineers do that from time to time, so I´ve heard.

Please correct me if I´m wrong, but I think that´s a simple explenation for such esoteric things like the choice of a CD medium.
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #93
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The reason you are wrong is because he said he is listening to BLANK cds.

I wont argue that there can be a reproduction error, but this is before there is any data on the disk! Poor quality can be difficult to read from, causing pops and digital errors. But, just how does it make sense for "nothing" to sound different from another "nothing." There is no dropout from exceeding a limit of course, unless 0 is above your limit.

If you could even get it to play, you are saying that one brand's zeros sound better than another.

Actually, you wouldnt even be able to play it, so Im curious as to whether or not he intentionally made that part up, or someone else in his studio is responsible for the quality control and he is a bit misinformed about what it is they do. You cant sit down and listen to blank discs. You might find that they all have this long 60hz tone on them, but thats about it

Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
Maybe you should read Bob Katz's mastering book then... Everything is capable of errors and imperfections... When you're doing something as important as reproducing a CD, you want to make sure that the quality is as high as you can get. That's why you take the time to test the medium you're writing to in order to make sure it's up to snuff. Like he says, every little step in quality matters. When you're a mastering engineer, that means being obsessively picky about *every* little part of the chain, from the wiring in the room through every transfer, connection, and conversion made, down to the medium you write the final product to.

Look up 'BLER' and read about why it exists and why it's necessary. Mastering is much more than just EQ and Limiting and the more 'glamorous' tasks you hear about; Quality control is an essential part of the mastering process.
Actually, BLER is the very reason that this would be not necessary (and nonsensical). BLER is the proper way to measure quality, and I certainly agree with considering error rates. However, just try and run a BLER test on a blank CD, I guarantee its not going to find any errors (because it wont find any data for an error to exist in the first place).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
I don´t know a damn thing about mixing or mastering. But as far as I remember correctly, there are three ways to write a CD.

Audio, data or both.

While your CD player can jump back and forth until it reads the DATA correctly, cause it can work in vari speed (the difference between the length of a cd x 10MB minus the DATA you can print on it, is the error correction data/directories space,etc...), your CD player can´t when its playing AUDIO. It can´t "look ahead".
It has to read the data correctly, otherwise it SKIPS or POPS.

Why? Because it "processes" the data in REAL TIME (not vari speed, speed is 1). So it´s not unimportant which medium you choose. There is also such a thing as a "digital dropout", when you "distort" a signal beyond a digital mediums "dynamic" limit. Mastering engineers do that from time to time, so I´ve heard.

Please correct me if I´m wrong, but I think that´s a simple explenation for such esoteric things like the choice of a CD medium.
This is not quite correct. It is true that CDs are played back at 1x speed, however they are still buffered. Its not simply a vinyl record player with a laser streaming in real time instead of a needle. Every CD player buffers incoming data and does indeed correct errors on the fly. You may want to read about CIRC error correction, included in the original CD Audio standard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-I...olomon_Coding). Thats part of why the aforementioned BLER exists - when certain thresholds are exceeded, these are not correctable. BLER exists to ensure that these errors (and there are always many, all over the CD) are kept to a minimum so that it doesnt cause a problem during playback. Actually, if you want to get really technical, BLER is not really indicative of whether or not there will be playback errors. When reproducing discs, there are different types of errors you worry about - correctable and uncorrectable. BLER does not differentiate, so its entirely possible for something to appear to have a high number of errors and a higher BLER, yet be superior to something with a low BLER that contains many uncorrectable errors.
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
If you track an drums with an SP 1200 through an old preamp and reamp some synths through old marshall stacks, you're not doing it because you want a "clean signal" and "most honest representation" of the source sound... You're doing it because you want to imbue the audio with a certain character that suits the mood of the track you're trying to produce.
Yeah, well I wouldn't do any of that.
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
Damn. You are so right. I see the light now. Can you please teach me more about making records? How the heck did I ever get to platinum without you? What's your cup size?
dude, how often do you want to repeat that you went platinum, i already know that heh
i'm glad you're successfull!

be happy that you were ass kissing at the right time at the right place and now are in the game.

@no ssl yet: i don't disagree with you. actually i'm myself someone who will use what he got at the moment and make the best out of it and i also agree that people today don't know what kind of power they have in their hands compared to the past, even often for free (freeware).
but that's not my point. i don't have platinum like dizzle (he is great) but i know one thing:
i have tried a shure sm57 and i have tried a neumann u87...and i much much more prefer what i get out of the neumann. so to me "it's the ear and not the gear" is kind of not true. my experience is that gear matters for some things, if you're going for a certain sound. the ear is more important, but to have the right gear helps a lot.
oh and that tlm 103 isn't a bad mic IMHO (no matter what is said on gearslutz).
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtg View Post
The reason you are wrong is because he said he is listening to BLANK cds.

I wont argue that there can be a reproduction error, but this is before there is any data on the disk! Poor quality can be difficult to read from, causing pops and digital errors. But, just how does it make sense for "nothing" to sound different from another "nothing." There is no dropout from exceeding a limit of course, unless 0 is above your limit.

If you could even get it to play, you are saying that one brand's zeros sound better than another.
.
I think you just misread it and jumped to incorrect conclusions. He said "We get samples from manufacturers and make tests and A/B." So that doesn't mean listening to zeros... It means printing tests to the aforementioned blank CDs from diff. manufacturers and then doing A/B listening tests to check the differences.

Also, you quoted me twice when I think you meant to quote Markus the second time I never said CD's don't buffer, rather it was Markus that claimed that playback is totally realtime. He did mention error correction though, which is why I didn't bother to nitpick and make a response to that post. I think he just worded it not-so-clearly.
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #97
jtg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
I think you just misread it and jumped to incorrect conclusions. He said "We get samples from manufacturers and make tests and A/B." So that doesn't mean listening to zeros... It means printing tests to the aforementioned blank CDs from diff. manufacturers and then doing A/B listening tests to check the differences.

Also, you quoted me twice when I think you meant to quote Markus the second time I never said CD's don't buffer, rather it was Markus that claimed that playback is totally realtime. He did mention error correction though, which is why I didn't bother to nitpick and make a response to that post. I think he just worded it not-so-clearly.
Oops, fixed the quoting issue. BTW, if you reread, he said the error correction is for DATA only and doesnt happen with audio CDs.

And as far as misreading it:

"We listen to blanks and hear the difference."

I dunno, hard to interpret that any other way!
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #98
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That means, you run tests on them and listen for the differences between the different options you have for blank CD medium... You're reading it far too literally.

It's like if you said you were doing a gear shootout and you listened to various compressors... The compressor itself is just a conduit, it doesn't mean you just plug the comp in, patch the output to your monitors and just stare at it You run audio through them...
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defjamm View Post
be happy that you were ass kissing at the right time at the right place and now are in the game.
If you call scrubbing toilets for free after a 2 hour commute (each way) just to eventually work 120+ hours a week at $9/hr (including xmas eve, xmas day, new year's eve, new years day) with ZERO sleep frequently in between sessions ass kissing....then I guess I'm an ass kisser.
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
If you call scrubbing toilets for free after a 2 hour commute (each way) just to eventually work 120+ hours a week at $9/hr (including xmas eve, xmas day, new year's eve, new years day) with ZERO sleep frequently in between sessions ass kissing....then I guess I'm an ass kisser.
that's a lot of hard work thumbsup

be happy that you had the opportunity!
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
If you call scrubbing toilets for free after a 2 hour commute (each way) just to eventually work 120+ hours a week at $9/hr (including xmas eve, xmas day, new year's eve, new years day) with ZERO sleep frequently in between sessions ass kissing....then I guess I'm an ass kisser.
It aint that hard to scrub a toilet. And holidays are overrated in this business. Xmas is when your soundscan numbers are good.

LOL

Stop whining, YOU had a brush didnt you? LMAO
Try working from 11 at night to 7 in the morn, and then going to class for 9-3 all week.

Then working sessions on the weekends.

And you still have to study at some point.

You learn that the human body CAN function longer than you think without sleep.

If what you say is accurate, You made over 50 Grand a year so the salary was decent.

You worked at least 17 hours out of each 24 hour day, and spent 4 hours commuting.

This left you 3 hours to sleep EVERYDAY

What's the problem?
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #102
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So ummmm, did anybody find out how to achieve the same level of loudness as Dre?

I'm guess Brian's words are the closest we will get to the answer.
Old 20th January 2007 | Show parent
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defjamm View Post
be happy that you had the opportunity!
I made the opportunity.
Old 21st January 2007 | Show parent
  #104
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Wow....reading this thread just gave me a headache !!!

I wanted to see if there might be something interesting about....drums....Dre.....loudness....or anything this was originally supposed to be about...but it's just a back and forth argument about who knows better !!!
wtf...

oh well.....

Dre is tight...I think he gets his "loudness" from the sum of all the things he and his team do...from the way the sound design is done....to the arranging.....choice of gear.....mixing and mastering...and there you have it !!!!!!

There is no single answer to Dre's loudness...or Timbos drums...or Scott's strings.....If you work what you do for a long period of time and become outstanding at your craft......there will be a bunch of folks on the internet starting threads about something YOU do...wondering how you do it....when really...all you're doing is you !!!!!!!!!!!!

In conclusion.......Dre's loudness...comes from a very long career of doing the same thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

peace out.......
Old 21st January 2007 | Show parent
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwilliams View Post
Wow....reading this thread just gave me a headache !!!
You didn't read it. Everything that you said was already said like 5 times.
Old 21st January 2007 | Show parent
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
I made the opportunity.
no, you were lucky to be at the right place at the right time. what you did is not to **** it up and TAKE your opportunity.

potential and hard work ain't nothing if there is no way to apply them.
Old 21st January 2007 | Show parent
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
You didn't read it. Everything that you said was already said like 5 times.
lol.....man.....I stand corrected.......I guess !!!

Anyway...it's all good.....Dre is a talented man.....and....well.....that's about it....
Old 22nd January 2007 | Show parent
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defjamm View Post
no, you were lucky to be at the right place at the right time. what you did is not to **** it up and TAKE your opportunity.

potential and hard work ain't nothing if there is no way to apply them.
When is there NOT an opportunity to apply potential and hard work?

Success is NEVER a matter of luck or chance. Success/Greatness is more a matter of NERVE and backbone than even ability IMO.


It's about the amount of work you are willing to put in and what you are willing to do to CREATE opportunity
Old 22nd January 2007 | Show parent
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkchild View Post
Why does everyone like to assume Dre does nothing, and simply steals all the credit?

Is it because he's black?
No. Most of my favorite Producers and artists never touch the mixing board to mix a damn thing. I'm not sure that George Martin has mixing credits on any records. Doesn't need them. He's a producer. Producers generally produce, and mixing engineers generally mix. One of my favorite artists being Trent Reznor, doesn't mix either generally and always has someone else do the final mixes. Trent's even made comments about how bad he'd be at mixing his own stuff and how he feels that it would be a bad idea (and thus he always gets someone else to do it).

Dre has some great arrangements. He's one of the few hip-hop producers that I always go out and purchase his CDs. I just never really thought, "Wow, i wonder how Dre gets this so loud sounding". Always figured it was his tracking engineer, mixing engineer, and mastering engineer that was responsible for that.
Old 22nd January 2007 | Show parent
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon View Post
Always figured it was his tracking engineer, mixing engineer, and mastering engineer that was responsible for that.
Dre will actually sit behind his SSL and tweak and EQ things until they sound right... and if they're not working he uses different samples! so IMHO he deserves mix credit!
Old 22nd January 2007 | Show parent
  #111
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For the 14 zillionth time - Dre mixes his own ****. His engineer does what he wants him to do. Sometimes, that means just sitting there while Dre mixes.
Old 22nd January 2007 | Show parent
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
When is there NOT an opportunity to apply potential and hard work?

Success is NEVER a matter of luck or chance. Success/Greatness is more a matter of NERVE and backbone than even ability IMO.


It's about the amount of work you are willing to put in and what you are willing to do to CREATE opportunity
if there is no water you can't learn to swim. there is always some luck included...i know so many hard working people who ain't **** because they didn't have the opportunity due to the environment they lived in.

if you're a slave, how big is the chance to become a mayor?
Old 22nd January 2007 | Show parent
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defjamm View Post
if you're a slave, how big is the chance to become a mayor?
Buddha, Jesus, Galileo, Luther, Ghandi, Luther King, all of them were slaves of the systems they were living in. you want to compare yours with their struggle?
the enviroment is what you make of it.

in today´s world, you don´t even have to be in a session to work on a project. your skills are still important, your location is not.

stop complaining. you are out in Germany and I know a couple of guys over there placing tracks over here as we type.
I think Sha just signed a young producer some months ago to work on Young Buck´s new record.
Old 22nd January 2007 | Show parent
  #114
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This discussion is unnecessary... Don't let someone drag you into a silly argument by trying to pooh-pooh your years of hard work.

An opportunity is nothing unless you set yourself up to be there in the first place, and set yourself up to truly take advantage of it.

And also one shot is great, but one shot does not a career make... So if you have any sort of longevity in the industry, it's only because you put the time and effort in.

So the moral is, don't EVER even take the time to listen to, and argue with, anybody that says otherwise. Just let your work stand for itself.

Anyhow, about Dr. DRE
Old 22nd January 2007 | Show parent
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
Look at every "illegal" person that comes to the U.S. OF course most in the U.S. see them as a problem. I do not. I see them as people willing to risk their LIVES to come to a better place. (That takes character, and character doesnt take education or the ability to speak English, it's a part of who you are). And I ask how many in the U.S would be willing to make the same sacrafice if things were reversed? Ask yourself, What do YOU WANT bad enough to risk your LIFE for it?
Man I loved your post - except this part. tutt

But that's for another thread on another forum, I guess.
Old 22nd January 2007 | Show parent
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
Man I loved your post - except this part. tutt

But that's for another thread on another forum, I guess.
The only thing I'd change is them coming to a "better place".

Actually they come to where they feel there are better opportunities IMO.

Feel free to PM me your objections to that part of the post. I may learn something from the discussion.

Who knows?

EDIT: Dizzle I moved the post to the political threads, You can publicly give your criticism (IF you choose) over there. As always I welcome the discussion and a different viewpoint.


And as far as this discussion having nothing to do with hip hop engineering. HONESTLY every discussion about Dre's shoe size, favorite color, doesnt either.

LOL What drum machine does he use
Who mixes for him?
Who writes for him?
What EQ did he use on the chronic?
What did he have for breakfast before producing Murder was the case?

LOL

There are NO secrets.
And every song is different so techniques vary.
Big Bass himself has spoken and said that Dre sometimes remixes the songs (Even after he has heard how mastering will treat them)
and he doesnt stop until he has the mix that he likes.

Which says that for him it's a trial and error process or "quality control"

However you choose to look at it.

But honestly Every "Secret" or technique to be posted has ALREADY BEEN POSTED.

I'd suggest you guys read the guest mod threads and become friends with the search function..

If this is too much work, then you don't want it enough.
Old 23rd January 2007 | Show parent
  #117
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more offtopic, actually the topic is deeper than what dre uses. my english isn't good enough to express it better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
the enviroment is what you make of it.
with some you can't make **** out of it. and making the best out of it isn't the same as being able to release your potential. martin luther king was a part of a movement which started way before. he was there at the right time and did his job to push it further. but he wasn't the only one with this kind of ideas.

as far as jesus, there is too much fantasy involved to use him as example ( same with buddha). like with many characters from the past ( he killed 1 people...no he killed 100...no he killed 1000). it's hard to say what he actually achieved during his time. plus as the son of god you're supposed to kick some ass.

maybe in 2000 years l ron hubbard will be what jesus is today and scientology will be the world religion heh


Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
in today´s world, you don´t even have to be in a session to work on a project. your skills are still important, your location is not.
the location is important. food, security, energy, technical equipment to be able to go to the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
stop complaining. you are out in Germany and I know a couple of guys over there placing tracks over here as we type.
I think Sha just signed a young producer some months ago to work on Young Buck´s new record.
where did i complain? my words were more general, i wasn't talking about me or producing.

what is wrong with:
"be happy that you had the opportunity!"

^^to me this is something positive.

if people think that luck doesn't play a role and it's only skill then they think to highly about themselves.
hitler was lucky when some of his generals tried to kill him and it didn't happen.
this wal mart guy who died when his plane crashed wasn't lucky. you can't tell me that luck isn't important.

good example in a dre thread:

EMINEM. he is talented as **** and did his part, but without dre, you could ask where he would be now.
Old 23rd January 2007 | Show parent
  #118
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

What the hell does any of this have to do with Dre's Loudness?

I can't stand this thread anymore.
Closed

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