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Gettin that PHAT commercial hip hop kick... Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 12th June 2003
  #31
Gear Maniac
 

Firstly let me say that just as there is no 'rock kickdrum' there really is no definitive 'hip-hop' kickdrum. It just adds to the misconception that hip hop is a simplistic form of music with a set form of sounds, etc.

It would be better if you could name some tracks that contain the kickdrum sound you're after. Hip hop kicks can be old school 70's breaks hits, 80's electro drums, boomy Miami bass-style 808 kicks, or the modern, warm yet punchy Bob Power style kicks.

If you take the latter as a guide then those complicated mults described above are the best way for sure... but
a lot of us ain't gonna have the gear to do that kind of stuff.

i usually sample an isolated kick from a breakbeat and then combine with a 909-like kick
for the modern punch - balance it to get the right amount of 'real kick' texture poking thru.


my kick drum method has to be:

1) 70's breakbeat kick with reverb tails taken off (with careful fading curves & filtering - must buy Transient Designer must buy Transient Designer must buy..) and any vinyl noise taken out with waveform draw tool in Pro Tools (crackles, scratches, etc - I'm not a fan of those stoopid crackly sample effects)
2) mix and balance with short hard 909-ish kickdrum sample (with careful lining up of both kicks in Pro Tools - get the attack peaks
together - no flamming!)
3) Treat both with Digi Compressor plug-in 'Thump Kick' setting (PT's hip hop engineers free & not-so secret weapon)
4) Into Serge Resonant EQ (my personal secret weapon)
5) BAck into PT's via 1176 ( a few db's GR mainly just for 'glueing together' effect
Faeflora describes)

this is only half the trick as the rest of it comes down to the way it sits with the bass. I don't often use the signal generator thang as I usually have a bass note on the kicks doing that anyway.

Burt
Old 12th June 2003
  #32
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BevvyB's Avatar
 

No it isn't
Old 12th June 2003
  #33
Gear Maniac
 

sorry

Did I go into the argument clinic again by mistake?

heh
Old 12th June 2003
  #34
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jazzius's Avatar
 

E-cue + Thrill'........a question!.............

..........i have no doubt you can work wonders with your kick multi-bussing........But.........

.........when do you decide that the kick is just so sucky that even these tricks will not save it and you just gotta replace it?.........

.....or is there no kick that's past redemption?...........

.......just wondered...........
Old 12th June 2003
  #35
Quote:
Originally posted by Renie
Thrill, e-cue

Do you ever just use sample(s) of your previous mult work or do you always create custom mults for the track you're working on?

Hey Renie,

The answer for me personally is no.

I still do have a collection of samples of my favorite kicks(I still do produce). But its rare that they find their way into other people's productions unless its a remix.

Nowadays I just work what's given to me.

Yeah its more challenging and it takes more time, but that's part of the job.

Years ago i would have answered differently(when I still had my Akai samplers and Wendell JR) but I guess I go through phases and I am in that "work with what's there"phase.

It coincides with my "no processing on the mixbuss phase"(compression or EQ) that i am in now.

I am also doing more producing than mixing lately, so maybe that has something to do with it.

I use less processing on my own productions than when mixing other peoples songs. I've always felt that arrangement has more to do with the sound of a mix than the EQ/compressor/effect/console.

By the way, my processing chains/mults are pretty similar though from song to song. That has more to do how songs are produced these days(similar) than anything.
Old 12th June 2003
  #36
Quote:
Originally posted by jazzius
E-cue + Thrill'........a question!.............

..........i have no doubt you can work wonders with your kick multi-bussing........But.........

.........when do you decide that the kick is just so sucky that even these tricks will not save it and you just gotta replace it?.........

.....or is there no kick that's past redemption?...........

.......just wondered...........

Jazzius,

This is an interesting question.

Yeah the ideal answer is the last one posted, but reality is always a different thing.

Sample replacement is easier to get away with in rock than it is in rap. You can cover it up much easier. In rap, the kick is one of the essential elements(along with the snare,bass and vocal).

When I use to mix rap, if i ever even considered replacing a sound, I would probably get shot.heh

The producers are just as big as the artists and they take their productions personally. It is their siganture and if you change it you take that away. I've done mixes where I tried to fix latent tracks that were phasing and they picked it up right away and almost had me fired.

People can say what they want about producing rap(easy or not) but the timing involved(complex) is so subtle that one little shift can throw the whole feel off.

I give these guys much respect.

Nowadays I prefer to make the sounds work(no matter how ridiculous they were tracked). I started in the 80's as a synth programmer so I come from that mind set. Most of the processing I own is devoted to getting stupendous Vocals and drums(the strength of most popular songs). So I take pride when I can rescue a vocal or get a great kick out of nothing.
Old 13th June 2003
  #37
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Renie
Thrill, e-cue

Do you ever just use sample(s) of your previous mult work or do you always create custom mults for the track you're working on?
Do you mean, just use drum samples, or you do mean just set signal paths? If you mean signal paths, I usually get everything I need from that mult chain I described. If you mean drum samples: rarely. I do print all of my drums to a drums dat at the end of each mix and every 6 months or so I update my Forat with them as well as a 90 gig firewire that's about 3/4 full.

Quote:
Originally posted by jazzius
E-cue + Thrill'........a question!.............

..........i have no doubt you can work wonders with your kick multi-bussing........But.........

.........when do you decide that the kick is just so sucky that even these tricks will not save it and you just gotta replace it?.........

.....or is there no kick that's past redemption?...........

.......just wondered...........
This really depends on the producer. There are cats I work with that literally use the exact same drum samples on every song they give me because they expect sample replacement from me. Sample replacement is an art form that I think when misused is worse than a bad vocoded autotune. It's not simply a cheater's way out, which I think a lot of engineers have been known to use it for. Anyone here familiar with me or my work has heard me rant for hours on sample replacement, but I'll just reiterate that I usually listen to the kick an envision what the producer wants the kick to do and use sample placement when necessary in those areas. You can't eq/compress/process something that's not there. Lately, I've been staying away from sub harmonic synth joints. I'm not sure if it's a conscious decision or not, but the sound is a bit dated for today's mix. I prefer the vitalizer (I think Duro turned me on to this) to the 120 or the ultrafex/ultrabass.
Old 13th June 2003
  #38
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faeflora's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
Lately, I've been staying away from sub harmonic synth joints. I'm not sure if it's a conscious decision or not, but the sound is a bit dated for today's mix. I prefer the vitalizer (I think Duro turned me on to this) to the 120 or the ultrafex/ultrabass.
Vitalizer? SPL Vitalizer?
Old 13th June 2003
  #39
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
Nobody is multing?

This set up worked perfectly for a Krs-One track I did yesterday:

OG Signal : Slight McDsp Filterbank EQ, no more than 3 db
Mult #1 160 XT -> API 550b
Mult #2 Distressor -> Pultec Blue
Mult #3 LT Sound Comp -> Moog Graphic Eq

The 3rd mult was added in about half what the others were. I felt like how god must feel when he gets his kick drum sound.
Yea! Long live the LT Sound compressor!thumbsup
Old 13th June 2003
  #40
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by faeflora
Vitalizer? SPL Vitalizer?
Bingo...

Quote:
Originally posted by OKden
Yea! Long live the LT Sound compressor!thumbsup
Yeah, I usually keep that one a secret. I still see them on ebay for pisscheap.
Old 13th June 2003
  #41
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jazzius's Avatar
 

cheers!
Old 14th June 2003
  #42
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KBOY's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Jazzius,

This is an interesting question.

Yeah the ideal answer is the last one posted, but reality is always a different thing.

Sample replacement is easier to get away with in rock than it is in rap. You can cover it up much easier. In rap, the kick is one of the essential elements(along with the snare,bass and vocal).

When I use to mix rap, if i ever even considered replacing a sound, I would probably get shot.heh

The producers are just as big as the artists and they take their productions personally. It is their siganture and if you change it you take that away. I've done mixes where I tried to fix latent tracks that were phasing and they picked it up right away and almost had me fired.

People can say what they want about producing rap(easy or not) but the timing involved(complex) is so subtle that one little shift can throw the whole feel off.

I give these guys much respect.
Maybe better for another subject but I've been wondering about this for some while. It seems some producers have a way of being (late) and have been this way consistently. Very interesting to think that this is done intentionally. Ice cube productions come to mind.

kboy
Old 14th June 2003
  #43
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Renie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Hey Renie,

The answer for me personally is no.

I still do have a collection of samples of my favorite kicks(I still do produce). But its rare that they find their way into other people's productions unless its a remix.

Nowadays I just work what's given to me.

Yeah its more challenging and it takes more time, but that's part of the job.

Years ago i would have answered differently(when I still had my Akai samplers and Wendell JR) but I guess I go through phases and I am in that "work with what's there"phase.

It coincides with my "no processing on the mixbuss phase"(compression or EQ) that i am in now.

I am also doing more producing than mixing lately, so maybe that has something to do with it.

I use less processing on my own productions than when mixing other peoples songs. I've always felt that arrangement has more to do with the sound of a mix than the EQ/compressor/effect/console.

By the way, my processing chains/mults are pretty similar though from song to song. That has more to do how songs are produced these days(similar) than anything.


Thrill,

So if your working with what's there AND minimizing your processing that's some boundaries to work within- unless the artists/arrangers have it nearly there!!!

Are you using no mix bus treatment as a way getting a sound, or is it a form of self-limiting to explore your own skills more?

I bought the "7 habits... " book, I'm really impressed so far.

Renie
Old 14th June 2003
  #44
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Renie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
Do you mean, just use drum samples, or you do mean just set signal paths? If you mean signal paths, I usually get everything I need from that mult chain I described. If you mean drum samples: rarely. I do print all of my drums to a drums dat at the end of each mix and every 6 months or so I update my Forat with them as well as a 90 gig firewire that's about 3/4 full.

I meant just use drum samples.

thanks!
Old 14th June 2003
  #45
Quote:
Originally posted by Renie
Thrill,

So if your working with what's there AND minimizing your processing that's some boundaries to work within- unless the artists/arrangers have it nearly there!!!

Are you using no mix bus treatment as a way getting a sound, or is it a form of self-limiting to explore your own skills more?

I bought the "7 habits... " book, I'm really impressed so far.

Renie
Renie,

Agreed on the first comment. Also there is always that conscious decision where you are going into the "production"area and not just mixing.

I am using no mix buss treatment because:

a) I think it becomes a crutch for people(me included). Its like if there is no treatment than something is wrong. I think I got in the habit because I was compensating for bad arrangements and over processing(on my part).

Why not work harder on making things gel in the mix itself? I will tell you one thing my mixes take longer now, but they are much more open feeling.

b) I have a pair of monitors now which I really really trust!!!heh
They tell me right away if buss treatment will be needed or not(lately more not).

Again this is a phase that I am going through.

I still have my Blue 230 around just in case I get the urge for some 2 buss spanking.
Old 15th June 2003
  #46
Quote:
Originally posted by mdbeh
Interesting post, as usual.

It's so easy for me to fall into routine when mixing, and I worry that I've done that with buss compression. Yesterday, I pulled the compressor off the mix buss, and I couldn't believe how much more open it sounded. (As if I should have been surprised...)

I usually rationalize it by saying that it's part of the sound of music I'm doing (mainly rock). How much do you think using buss compression is genre-dependant, or is it more a matter of overall technique?



Now what monitors would those be?

Agreed.

I think the mixbuss comp/EQ thing has now become all mosta default standard for rock. Look how many posts are there right now on the 2 buss question.

I wonder what would happen if you took these 2 buss comps away?

My main mix monitors are the Dunlavy SM1's.

I feel they are the best mix/studio monitor on the planet bar none.

Again this is just my opinion and people can differ, but hey I am happy with them...and that's what matters to me.heh
Old 16th June 2003
  #47
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Renie,

a) I think it becomes a crutch for people(me included). Its like if there is no treatment than something is wrong. I think I got in the habit because I was compensating for bad arrangements and over processing(on my part).
Why not work harder on making things gel in the mix itself? I will tell you one thing my mixes take longer now, but they are much more open feeling.
Thrill, this is good and bad to hear I was conlicted about this, now moreso. I'm not really into buying protools plugs, and most of my stuff is produced pretty fast so I'm trying to sort of follow the hippocratic oath, ya know; do no harm
The limited use of plugs that I've had seems to yield a louder mix with a little more gelatin, but still too edgy.
Unfortunately bands seem to want a louder mix regardless of dynamicsgrudge
I'll try to find the middle ground I guess, thanks
daniel
Old 17th June 2003
  #48
no ssl yet
Guest
Guys, getting back to the original question about hip/hop drums. I've been thinking about a poor man's solution ever since I sold my Distressors to buy my computer. This is what I'm thinking

I'm still converting via my finalizer + (Though a friend is gonna shoot me one of his Studer Adats when he comes home for the Essence Fest
Since I work in a certain mode and I've grown to know what I want

I'm gonna buy another distressor to go along with my single channel of DBX160xt. I will track my drums, then using the finalizer for hardware insert. Process 2 mults of my kick (hi via DBX 160xt/ Manley Pultec and LO via Distressor/manley pultec)

Then I will do the same for subsequent Kicks and Snrs in each song and also Bass.

This way I get to dfegad on compressor plugs and though it will take a little longer I get the sound I'm after and I only have to buy a single channel distressor (for now)

Old 17th June 2003
  #49
Quote:
Originally posted by FOURTHTUNZ
Thrill, this is good and bad to hear I was conlicted about this, now moreso. I'm not really into buying protools plugs, and most of my stuff is produced pretty fast so I'm trying to sort of follow the hippocratic oath, ya know; do no harm
The limited use of plugs that I've had seems to yield a louder mix with a little more gelatin, but still too edgy.
Unfortunately bands seem to want a louder mix regardless of dynamicsgrudge
I'll try to find the middle ground I guess, thanks
daniel

Hey Daniel,

Don't let me discourage you from doing it.

I am just stating my preference right now.

If you want a louder mix than look at a L2 or something similar.

Mixbuss processing in the right situations can take a stellar mix and put it over the top.

It can also do the oppposite, ruin an innocent mix that was conceived on emotion alone.

I guess what I am trying to say is try it and if becomes part of your repertoire than do what you feel.

Just don't expect it to be the cure all for a badly conceived mix.
Old 17th June 2003
  #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by faeflora
First I eq it.

Then I apply lots and LOTS of gain.

Then I limit the **** out of it.

Then I eq it again or use some subbass processor or both.

If I subbass process I might then compress the subbass and source together.

Then I gate it if there's a noisy tail.
Does anyone do my gain->limiting thing? Has anyone tried it? I'm curious about what your ears think.
Old 17th June 2003
  #51
Quote:
Originally posted by faeflora
Does anyone do my gain->limiting thing? Has anyone tried it? I'm curious about what your ears think.
Hey Fae,

Is this with a live kick or a sample?

This works the best I've noticed on SSL's.

By the way i am one of those guys who doesn't believe in compressing the very bottomn end of the spectrum.

To me its a little self defeating.heh
Old 17th June 2003
  #52
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet
This way I get to dfegad on compressor plugs and though it will take a little longer I get the sound I'm after and I only have to buy a single channel distressor (for now)

You should be able to get your kick to bang without any hardware if need be. My chain pref is the analog one I listed, but mainly because I get what I need in a shorter amount of time than using plug's. Broken record : Don't sleep on the stock digi compressor on kick drums. If you can't get a twack, thump, thud, or boom out of this, then something is seriously wrong with your kick drum or (not to sound too condescending) engineering skills.
Old 17th June 2003
  #53
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faeflora's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Hey Fae,

Is this with a live kick or a sample?

This works the best I've noticed on SSL's.

By the way i am one of those guys who doesn't believe in compressing the very bottomn end of the spectrum.

To me its a little self defeating.heh
My technique is for electronic samples like 808 909 etc. It doesn't really work on -kick drums-.
Old 17th June 2003
  #54
no ssl yet
Guest
E-cue we have exchanged posts far too long for me NOT to know that you are never speaking with a condescending tone.

Maybe it's that I just miss having my distressors that have me longing to buy another, I don't know. But I will seriously give the Digi comp a good work over when my Summer School term is over.

I've noticed in your posts you seem to exchange the DBX 160xt with the Digi comp when in the plugin world
the Distressor with the Ren Comp and the MC4 or compressor bank when you would normally reach for something else with more of "midrange" bite.

I have been planning to look into this analog to plug change over but the Damn MBA program is not getting easier and also my mother was recently diagnosed with Lung Cancer, so Music has definately been on the back burner.

The closest I get to music right now is listening to the radio in the car



I'm curious e-cue what is your typical plugin set up for snare and vocal mults?
Old 17th June 2003
  #55
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Hey no ssl yet,

Really sorry to read that about your mom...

Hope they caught it in the very early stage and can completely elliminate the C with extreme prejudice.

Keep faith and best wishes.

Sincerely,
Old 18th June 2003
  #56
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet
E-cue we have exchanged posts far too long for me NOT to know that you are never speaking with a condescending tone.

Maybe it's that I just miss having my distressors that have me longing to buy another, I don't know. But I will seriously give the Digi comp a good work over when my Summer School term is over.

I've noticed in your posts you seem to exchange the DBX 160xt with the Digi comp when in the plugin world
the Distressor with the Ren Comp and the MC4 or compressor bank when you would normally reach for something else with more of "midrange" bite.

I have been planning to look into this analog to plug change over but the Damn MBA program is not getting easier and also my mother was recently diagnosed with Lung Cancer, so Music has definately been on the back burner.

The closest I get to music right now is listening to the radio in the car


I'm curious e-cue what is your typical plugin set up for snare and vocal mults?
I'm very sorry about your misfortunes and hope that everything works itself out for the best. That really sucks... I'm calling my mom after I post this to tell her I love her...

OKay, enough hallmark card ish... I'd miss the distressors too. I have 4 on deck for my drum kit tomarrow at Music Grinder (Portishead/Badu/D Ang/A Keys sorta style music).

I'm a very adaptive mixer. Sometimes I'll listen to a snare, and just want to shape the attack, and a gate will do the trick and I'm done. This is rare, but I don't fix broken ish. Everything is subjective and I approach things with a 3 dimensional way of thought. For example, I did a song with Sinead O Connor some time back, and used no compression or eq (just a couple filters)... If the drums would have been anyMORE aggressive, I probably would have gotta canned from the gig, and the sound was most appropriate. The next day I worked with Rza and reamped the drums through a Mesa Triple Rec amp. If I'm working for Hi Tek, or had a chance to work with JD (the Slum Village one), out comes Lo Fi... If I'm working with JD (Dupri, quick sidenote:all I've ever seen him play is a hi hat out of a groovebox) or Og Kon, out comes the hi shelf on the filterbank. Basically what I'm rambling on about is, my mult chains have been changing a LOT lately, especially dig based mults. A current good example would be (snare right?):

Filterbank F2 (rolling off any unneeded low end)>DigiCompress>Filterbank E6 (knock at 800 or so, more crack at 1K, more thud at 400...all depends)
BF 1176>(sometimes Magneto)> MEequalizer (mid band is about all I use this for) or Reneq
McDsp MC4000 (brightens snare, if needed, and great for a Thwack Spankin)
If the snare is in desperate need of beef, sometimes I'll nudge it forward (latency) and run MasterX5 across it and multiband compress/limt/expand the apedook out of it. (lately the new Ren multiband plug in has taken the place of it, but has a gargantuan sample delay)

If I have access to dig gear, look out... Sometimes I change out the MC4000 for a Triple C. Sometimes I use the CD MASTER program in the M5000.

(kick would start with possibly)
1176> Pultec
Digi compressor> Filterbank E6
Channel Strip (as long as I don't pay attention to those bouncing balls)
Possibly Lo Fi or Sans Amp... (I used to feel so cool using the pedal on drums pre-b.f.)

Vocal mults? Ouch...
I take my Level Devil with me everywhere I possibley can and always go through it. I like going for just 2 mults, a mushey tube sound (hooks) and a tight solid state sound (verses).
The REN VOX comp is... wow, changed the way I work. I'd say:

F2(roll lows)>Ren Comp>E6>Ren Vox> (maybe L1)
F2>LA2A>Pultec
Ride up the Ren Vox change in the verses, and the Pultec one in the hooks accordingly.

Sorry if I sound too much like a fence stradler in this post. It's the most honest way I approach things.
Old 18th June 2003
  #57
no ssl yet
Guest
Man nothing wrong with sounding Hallmark ish when talking about moms. I pray for mine several times a day. She has a brain tumor and Lung Cancer so it's rough right now. Experiencing this time is definately changing my life long path as I am remembering what things in life are truly important.

With that said Back to Music

My every conversation with you seems to make me long for more Farm Cards I 've got 2 old DSP farms on the way so hopefully this will help some. My only way of keeping up has been to RTAS my drums and print Processed copies before I begin to tackle the vocal which requires a whole different set of plugs. After I print processed vocals I start to think Verbs and 2bus which shifts me in another DSP BAttle. Luckily I'm pretty confident in the decisions I make when I print so I don't have to go back much. Dave P once told me Great Engineering begins at the record store; listening, and knowing what you want **** to sound like This has stuck with me.

As much as people diss the "protools sound" My engineering skills would not be the same if I were sitting around waiting for an SSL and a bunch of outboard gear as opposed to fighting with my mix system and progressing to a level where I often win the fight now more often than I lose

I'll keep this short since you have a phone call to make
Old 18th June 2003
  #58
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet
Dave P once told me Great Engineering begins at the record store; listening, and knowing what you want **** to sound like This has stuck with me.
$100 in CD's will definately teach you more than $100 in "Mix Techniques" text books. By the way, you are gonna **** when you hear what Hard Drive is doing to the new P!NK record.

I'm a dsp-***** as well. When I do pop music, I often run out of nodes (256 since I'm still rocking a TDM) before processing. I'm dragging my feet on the HD upgrade till I see what's up with the new macs, but the extra nodes alone make the jump to HD worth it for me.
Old 18th June 2003
  #59
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i feel for you...i had an aunt with a brain tumor as well...may she rest in peace

Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet
Man nothing wrong with sounding Hallmark ish when talking about moms. I pray for mine several times a day. She has a brain tumor and Lung Cancer so it's rough right now. Experiencing this time is definately changing my life long path as I am remembering what things in life are truly important.

With that said Back to Music

My every conversation with you seems to make me long for more Farm Cards I 've got 2 old DSP farms on the way so hopefully this will help some. My only way of keeping up has been to RTAS my drums and print Processed copies before I begin to tackle the vocal which requires a whole different set of plugs. After I print processed vocals I start to think Verbs and 2bus which shifts me in another DSP BAttle. Luckily I'm pretty confident in the decisions I make when I print so I don't have to go back much. Dave P once told me Great Engineering begins at the record store; listening, and knowing what you want **** to sound like This has stuck with me.

As much as people diss the "protools sound" My engineering skills would not be the same if I were sitting around waiting for an SSL and a bunch of outboard gear as opposed to fighting with my mix system and progressing to a level where I often win the fight now more often than I lose

I'll keep this short since you have a phone call to make
Old 19th June 2003
  #60
Here for the gear
 

Thanks guys

Wow, what an informative thread. Lotta great stuff.

Hey e-cue, can you post a discography of some specific tracks that you've used those techniques on? I would love to hear the trickery in action.

Gracias!!!
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