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Kick drum recording talk Consoles
Old 2nd April 2010
  #31
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Storyville's Avatar
It's a whole world unto itself. This subject really looks like a job for Benny Grotto - he's much more knowledgeable about drums than I.

However, I'll write a few things.

Basically, the batter side is delivering the attack sound, and the resonant head is - well - resonating, giving the sustain. So, there's a textural and a tonal concern when tuning the kick drum. On the attack side, the higher you tune the head the more punch you get, the lower, the more flap. On the resonant, the tuning will both determine the pitch, but also the "diffusion" of the resonance, or the texture of the resonance. Equal tuning on both heads usually gives a pretty solid tone and punch. Tuning the resonant higher than the batter will cut the "oooo" down and make a punchier sound. But you will lose the low resonance a bit. Conversely, tuning the resonant down below it's lowest note, just a hair, will give you a "fat" sound from a more complex overtone shape, but again you lose that low end resonance a little.

Some people tune to a note on the kick. I usually don't. I find the lowest tone that has a focused resonance and work from there.

As for head coatings and plys - there's a long list. Basically, the clear guys are the most resonant, the thicker coats and 2-plys have less overtones. You probably want a single ply as a resonant head. The EMADs are black heads which are a little less ringy/more controlled than the clear heads, but more colorful than 2-plys. The tone is ultimately what gives the kick its character, and the punch is what's going to give it it's presence. You need both, and the negotiation of all these things is the art.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #32
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phillysoulman's Avatar
 

Why is there SO MUCH discussion about freekin kick drums when there are snares,toms, cymbals etc in a drum kit.
Every other mufukka is so damn obsessed with kicks.
Enough already...theres more to life than kicks, 808s and 800 gs.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #33
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Storyville's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysoulman View Post
Why is there SO MUCH discussion about freekin kick drums when there are snares,toms, cymbals etc in a drum kit.
Every other mufukka is so damn obsessed with kicks.
Enough already...theres more to life than kicks, 808s and 800 gs.
I completely agree - however, I'd spin it the other way. Why not more talk about the many other elements and gear. I don't undervalue the power of good kick drum, but I think other things are getting underplayed.

The problem with these topics is that they are too broad scope. As I said before, just thinking about kick drums generally - the permutations of heads, batters, brands, materials, miking techniques, etc is just too lofty for detailed discussion.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #34
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You can't judge too much about a drum just from the type of wood. You might read that birch is brighter and more scouped sounding than maple, which is true if you compare a new custom absolute birch set with a new custom absolute maple. But then go over to a Catalina birch and it's a whole different ball game.

Also the age of the wood is big factor. Generally all acoustic instruments mellow with age, the wood in a brand new steinway is 40 years old. So a birch set from the 70s can actually be much darker (or warm and full depending on how you look at it) than new maple. But it could also sound that way for any nr of other reasons (most likely the bearing edges).

What is your goal? Are you looking to buy a kick to use to make live loops? Or rent borrow some kicks to make your own one-shots?

For me kick drums are by far the least rocket science out of a whole drum set. Snare drum tuning on the other hand is pure vudoo, but when I get my supra dialed in just right there's nothing quite like it.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #35
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Storyville's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
For me kick drums are by far the least rocket science out of a whole drum set. Snare drum tuning on the other hand is pure vudoo, but when I get my supra dialed in just right there's nothing quite like it.
Tune without the snare engaged, fine tune with the snare engaged. heh
Old 3rd April 2010
  #36
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droogs's Avatar
 

Quote:
And if you want specific then here goes.

YouTube - BOON DOC: 2 Beats for 2009
sorry iam not hatin, but this beat in the vid is really really nothing special!

Old 3rd April 2010
  #37
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Reggmail's Avatar
 



I myself personally love to read and appreciate bass drum info from Storyville, RyanC, illacov and everyone who study as hard as you guys do and share the knowledge on this topic.
I just wanted to say thank you guy for the information that you provide.thumbsupthumbsup
You guy's are so knowledgeable in this area and could wright the book on ''live drum recording technic''. You guys could also put a live drum sample library together, I believe that it would make much money
(only Gearslutz get free samples)....Lol.

Storyville quote from post #18: a little wool condom depending on what kind of attack you want.)
How does that work with the Electronic Scrotum?heh....Lol


As far as brotha Boon Doc is concern, I believe that I posted a link on this brother on ''chopping samples'' a little while ago on Gearslutz, because I believe that this brotha is going places.
You can see from his earlier post how he has progressed and grown like we all must do.
When I study a song or technic, I usually don't do a lot of head bobbing because I'm concentrating on the aspect and content of the song, now after that is done, I would bob away.
''I Don't See Nothing Wrong, With A Little Bob & Grind"
& blessings.
Old 4th April 2010
  #39
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skiroy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysoulman View Post
Why is there SO MUCH discussion about freekin kick drums when there are snares,toms, cymbals etc in a drum kit.
Every other mufukka is so damn obsessed with kicks.
Enough already...theres more to life than kicks, 808s and 800 gs.
Of course there is more to life than kicks. Guitar,rhodes,bass,every instrument,theory,training your ear,practicing everyday,micing, selecting pres,comps,ect.ect. ect. But you hate on everyone of those topics too.If someone is not being too lazy then they are putting too much time into something.

I dont think you mean most of what you say. You dont have a real opinion homie. You change your perspective too much. You always rant cause people just want to be lazy and get a "hip hop" pre or mic that they are wack cause they are not putting there all into it or doing what it takes to be a good producer. You tell people they should, "learn theory,pick up a guitar and learn to play, to try different things,different mics blah blah. But when anyone tries to do those things and show that they are putting everything in what they do, you beat them down then to.

Not hating just statin

Philly whats you top 10 MCs?Do you even like hip hop? From any time period? You do know most hip hop producers through out time were not on a musician or engineering level that you project right?The bread and butter of all hip hop was cats like me in my bedroom figuring out.
Old 4th April 2010
  #40
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Mark D.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lago View Post
This beat is sick! I think I might have to start learning the piano, because this is just ridiculous sounding. The slide he did is crazy good. By the way, I know it might be taboo here, but I've started working with some producers who are african american. It feels like some of their beats could not be done by any other people. I personally would never be able to even think of doing this style...
The jazzy voicings he uses show keyboard skills. I agree. In the 80s when I started playing in bands, my keyboard skills were average. Now, it doesn't surprise me for folks to hear me play easy stuff and think I'm way better than I really am. On the video. It is funny, the sounds that I'd heard in the video are actually all great, EXCEPT the kick. I wouldn't want that in a beat I helped create, based just on what I'm hearing. Now to clarify, we are hearing part of the impact of the kick hitting the camera mic. It is really hard to tell from such a video. But I can tell enough to say it's a very basic kick sound. You could toss a 57 into an inexpensive kick and get something close. This is not a dis, plus the beat isn't finished. I'd not have been surprised to learn the guy ended up changing the kick sound for one that's less cardboard souding to me.

It's not so much the ethnicity as upbringing. I grew up with my father playing a lot of jazz. I loved it, and got into a lot of the 70's - 80's R&B (my favorite era for it) which often had lots of jazzy influences. It is easy to see how artists like Anita Baker were able to cross over into jazz songs on her albums. My choices of chords are influenced by this, and thus I fit into a lot of R&B & funk bands, in addition to rock bands. In response to the 'why so much talk about kick drums' responses. In this thread, clearly that's the OP question. I'd say it's relevant since kicks have more impact than the other drum sounds, particularly in club or car systems. That's what you'll notice most. It's often more tricky to get the right kick sound vs. other drum sounds. Be it real or programmed drums. Especially in how it relates to the bass instrument sound.
Old 5th April 2010
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reggmail View Post


I myself personally love to read and appreciate bass drum info from Storyville, RyanC, illacov and everyone who study as hard as you guys do and share the knowledge on this topic.
I just wanted to say thank you guy for the information that you provide.thumbsupthumbsup
You guy's are so knowledgeable in this area and could wright the book on ''live drum recording technic''. You guys could also put a live drum sample library together, I believe that it would make much money
(only Gearslutz get free samples)....Lol.

Storyville quote from post #18: a little wool condom depending on what kind of attack you want.)
How does that work with the Electronic Scrotum?heh....Lol


As far as brotha Boon Doc is concern, I believe that I posted a link on this brother on ''chopping samples'' a little while ago on Gearslutz, because I believe that this brotha is going places.
You can see from his earlier post how he has progressed and grown like we all must do.
When I study a song or technic, I usually don't do a lot of head bobbing because I'm concentrating on the aspect and content of the song, now after that is done, I would bob away.
''I Don't See Nothing Wrong, With A Little Bob & Grind"
& blessings.

Your the man bro. . . whenever I hear the word "system" the first thing that pops into my head? You. . . your in my system. That **** was/IS nice bro. Hey the 80's sound is coming back!

As for the sample lib? I'm kinda old school, I'm of the belief that a drum has to be tuned for the artist or maybe even for the song. There are too many variables for a sample lib to really work, at least if you want it to sound like a set.
Old 6th April 2010
  #42
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Reggmail's Avatar
 



Brotha RyanC, I agree with you, what do you think about these drums and the procedure they went through to produce this plug?
It seems pretty extensive.







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cXgqTpPeLI&feature=related The top 5

YouTube - Superior Drummer - Adding Reverb to Custom & Vintage SDX using an EZX 2.2



& blessings.
Old 7th April 2010
  #43
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skiroy's Avatar
 

That looks dope but I need something to play at the crib. Storyville do you have any experience with recording a yamaha maple stage custom or a gretsch maple 22 x 18 catalina club kick? What about a 22 x 20 kick?
Old 7th April 2010
  #44
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phillysoulman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiroy View Post
Of course there is more to life than kicks. Guitar,rhodes,bass,every instrument,theory,training your ear,practicing everyday,micing, selecting pres,comps,ect.ect. ect. But you hate on everyone of those topics too.If someone is not being too lazy then they are putting too much time into something.

I dont think you mean most of what you say. You dont have a real opinion homie. You change your perspective too much. You always rant cause people just want to be lazy and get a "hip hop" pre or mic that they are wack cause they are not putting there all into it or doing what it takes to be a good producer. You tell people they should, "learn theory,pick up a guitar and learn to play, to try different things,different mics blah blah. But when anyone tries to do those things and show that they are putting everything in what they do, you beat them down then to.

Not hating just statin

Philly whats you top 10 MCs?Do you even like hip hop? From any time period? You do know most hip hop producers through out time were not on a musician or engineering level that you project right?The bread and butter of all hip hop was cats like me in my bedroom figuring out.
Here are my top ten fave mcs,home slice...in no particular order.

Tupac
Chuck D
LL
Rakim
KRS ONE
Treach
Snoop
Common
Twista
Juvenile

FYI..I love hip hop.
The real **** and not the garbage thats out there right now.
Plus my bro, you should not pre judge a mufukka .
I know more about the genre than you EVER will....based on your stupid ass questions.
Case closed,home slice.
feel me,son????
Now go and make a ****ing beat in your bedroom and shut the **** up.

Feel me,homie????
Old 7th April 2010
  #45
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Nahuel's Avatar
 

wack
Old 7th April 2010
  #46
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skiroy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysoulman View Post
Here are my top ten fave mcs,home slice...in no particular order.

Tupac
Chuck D
LL
Rakim
KRS ONE
Treach
Snoop
Common
Twista
Juvenile

FYI..I love hip hop.
The real **** and not the garbage thats out there right now.
Plus my bro, you should not pre judge a mufukka .
I know more about the genre than you EVER will....based on your stupid ass questions.
Case closed,home slice.
feel me,son????
Now go and make a ****ing beat in your bedroom and shut the **** up.

Feel me,homie????
I aint pre judgin noone. Im judgin you based on Every thing you have ever wrote. Whos pre judgin who? You know about HIp HOp more than who,why? Cause you been in the studio for decades. I am new to trying be behind the scenes but I been a Hip Hop head for decades. Most you mentioned is either you being stuck in the past or the past mainstream.

I respect alot of the MCs you mentioned and a couple are in my top ten. But the fact is, your list shows you dont dig in the crates or search for unknown greats. Your ego prevents you from ever knowing anything more than some one else ...EVER will.Anyone with the passion,drive and a humble attitude will be better than you, when they are your age. Talent is 50%,attitude is 90%,home slice.If what you do dont bring you joy,then your just as bad as the other sellouts out there cause your heart aint right with it,then your doing it for the wrong reasons.At least at this point.You obviously got mad negativety in you. Im sure most people here would agree to that. Who would wanna work with anyone like that?

Music is location less,status less,monetary less,competion less, ego less, ect... If you are using music for any of these, then your already abusing it.
Old 7th April 2010
  #47
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skiroy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpuma View Post
wack
There no real **** out there today,but Juvenille on his top ten?
Old 7th April 2010
  #48
Gear Addict
 
BurnStudios's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiroy View Post
There no real **** out there today,but Juvenille on his top ten?

rofl.... and hes from the city of brotherly love... Irony, we have it.
Old 7th April 2010
  #49
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Nahuel's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiroy View Post
There no real **** out there today,but Juvenille on his top ten?
after his intense 808 bashing it's pretty funny indeed. but my comment was not really about his "top ten", I could care less about SillyOldMan taste in music...it's more about his insults, his overwelming superiority complex. What a clown.
Old 7th April 2010
  #50
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skiroy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnStudios View Post
rofl.... and hes from the city of brotherly love... Irony, we have it.
Where is black thought in that list?
Old 7th April 2010
  #51
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skiroy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpuma View Post
after his intense 808 bashing it's pretty funny indeed. but my comment was not really about his "top ten", I could care less about SillyOldMan taste in music...it's more about his insults, his overwelming superiority complex. What a clown.
Thats why i asked though cause he seems like he hates everything. Look Im new to all this but in a years time I have managed to record and mix a entire rock album with no help or guidance besides the internet. It came out pretty good to. My point is even though this album wasnt Pro level I showed my passion and ability to do what it took and my attitude opened mad doors. In a year time I have met enough people where Im being made offers all the time. I was just offered a postion to be trained to take over the only real studio here in Panama City,fl. Granted its blue grass and country, gospel but I dont complain and say how all of the music Sucks. I dont lik it but I keep it to myself.

I dont say all this to brag I say all this to talk about how your attitude can make or break you.In all the work I done. Studio,acedemic,live sound ect. One thing is for sure. No matter what kind of music your doing,your experience doing it is either miserable or pleasant and that is determine by the people involved. If the music is dope and the company is arrogant and negative,the experience sucks.
Old 7th April 2010
  #52
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skiroy's Avatar
 

AAAAAAANNNNNNYYYYWWWWWWAAAAYYSSSSSSS!

Anyone hear a yamaha custom maple advantage 22 x16?
Old 7th April 2010
  #53
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Nahuel's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiroy View Post
Thats why i asked though cause he seems like he hates everything. Look Im new to all this but in a years time I have managed to record and mix a entire rock album with no help or guidance besides the internet. It came out pretty good to. My point is even though this album wasnt Pro level I showed my passion and ability to do what it took and my attitude opened mad doors. In a year time I have met enough people where Im being made offers all the time. I was just offered a postion to be trained to take over the only real studio here in Panama City,fl. Granted its blue grass and country, gospel but I dont complain and say how all of the music Sucks. I dont lik it but I keep it to myself.

I dont say all this to brag I say all this to talk about how your attitude can make or break you.In all the work I done. Studio,acedemic,live sound ect. One thing is for sure. No matter what kind of music your doing,your experience doing it is either miserable or pleasant and that is determine by the people involved. If the music is dope and the company is arrogant and negative,the experience sucks.
you sound like cool dude with the right attitude and you questions often lead to intersting answers on this board, keep up the good work.
Old 7th April 2010
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reggmail View Post


Brotha RyanC, I agree with you, what do you think about these drums and the procedure they went through to produce this plug?
It seems pretty extensive.


& blessings.

Sounds pretty cool. . . very LA sounding. I'd be concerned about how versatile they compared to real drums in context. They are doing it right as far as not using the same sample over and over.
Old 7th April 2010
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skiroy View Post
AAAAAAANNNNNNYYYYWWWWWWAAAAYYSSSSSSS!

Anyone hear a yamaha custom maple advantage 22 x16?
This is a stage 20x16, yamaha's are pretty snappy sounding and usually wouldn't be my first choice for hip hop (The catalina would probably be a better fit, but that depends on tuning/heads/beater etc, and the track). This was an ATM25 about an inch away from where the beater hits the batter head inside, and a cad m79 on the rez head in a spot where hitting it softly puts out a lighter.

The grestch one is a much crappier recording (that was before I built all the diffusers and bought the tape machine), but the kick there is pretty typical grestch sound. It has more girth and weight to it. That wasn't a catalina though, it was a custom shop kit. I don't remember what all the mics were on that one.

I hope that helps, try to listen just to the kick tone and not be put off by the gretsch being a crappier recording overall.
Attached Files

yammiestage.wav (1.99 MB, 15 views)

Grestch.wav (1.36 MB, 13 views)

Old 8th April 2010
  #56
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skiroy's Avatar
 

Thankx guys this is all Im after. Now we gearslutin!!

Thank to everyone.
Old 8th April 2010
  #57
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skiroy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
This is a stage 20x16, yamaha's are pretty snappy sounding and usually wouldn't be my first choice for hip hop (The catalina would probably be a better fit, but that depends on tuning/heads/beater etc, and the track). This was an ATM25 about an inch away from where the beater hits the batter head inside, and a cad m79 on the rez head in a spot where hitting it softly puts out a lighter.

The grestch one is a much crappier recording (that was before I built all the diffusers and bought the tape machine), but the kick there is pretty typical grestch sound. It has more girth and weight to it. That wasn't a catalina though, it was a custom shop kit. I don't remember what all the mics were on that one.

I hope that helps, try to listen just to the kick tone and not be put off by the gretsch being a crappier recording overall.
Whats the specs on that grestch? I guess it all depends. I like this Yammie sound.

YouTube - Tama 14 x 6 Starphonic Bubinga Snare Drum (PBC140-MNC)
Old 8th April 2010
  #58
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phillysoulman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiroy View Post
I aint pre judgin noone. Im judgin you based on Every thing you have ever wrote. Whos pre judgin who? You know about HIp HOp more than who,why? Cause you been in the studio for decades. I am new to trying be behind the scenes but I been a Hip Hop head for decades. Most you mentioned is either you being stuck in the past or the past mainstream.

I respect alot of the MCs you mentioned and a couple are in my top ten. But the fact is, your list shows you dont dig in the crates or search for unknown greats. Your ego prevents you from ever knowing anything more than some one else ...EVER will.Anyone with the passion,drive and a humble attitude will be better than you, when they are your age. Talent is 50%,attitude is 90%,home slice.If what you do dont bring you joy,then your just as bad as the other sellouts out there cause your heart aint right with it,then your doing it for the wrong reasons.At least at this point.You obviously got mad negativety in you. Im sure most people here would agree to that. Who would wanna work with anyone like that?

Music is location less,status less,monetary less,competion less, ego less, ect... If you are using music for any of these, then your already abusing it.
Im not interested in digging in the crates,so to speak because what I do goes far beyond the crates.
In fact,Ill bet that I am a musician on thousands of the very songs you are digging through.
I just come from a much different place than you in a musical sense,and Im quite proud of it.
Old 8th April 2010
  #59
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Storyville's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
This is a stage 20x16, yamaha's are pretty snappy sounding and usually wouldn't be my first choice for hip hop (The catalina would probably be a better fit, but that depends on tuning/heads/beater etc, and the track). This was an ATM25 about an inch away from where the beater hits the batter head inside, and a cad m79 on the rez head in a spot where hitting it softly puts out a lighter.

The grestch one is a much crappier recording (that was before I built all the diffusers and bought the tape machine), but the kick there is pretty typical grestch sound. It has more girth and weight to it. That wasn't a catalina though, it was a custom shop kit. I don't remember what all the mics were on that one.

I hope that helps, try to listen just to the kick tone and not be put off by the gretsch being a crappier recording overall.

This is totally a preference thing - but I love yamaha maples. ESPECIALLY the snares. I would be totally happy with one of those for a Hip Hop song. I like snappy drums because I often find myself hitting them with three or four stages of compression, and having that snap helps it retain it's definition after it's been compressed, limited, and compressed again.

@skiroy: uh... I've recorded a lot of drums. Basically, the diameter is going to determine how low the pitch goes, and the length will determine the length of the sustain. Very long drums will often sound lower even with a smaller diaphragm because they accentuate the low end part of the sound.
Old 8th April 2010
  #60
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Reggmail's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Sounds pretty cool. . . very LA sounding. I'd be concerned about how versatile they compared to real drums in context. They are doing it right as far as not using the same sample over and over.
Thanks for you response Brotha RyanC.
I agree with you, I also went and purchased the Alesis Pad Controller.
So far in my ears it will work for live simulated studio drums.
I also midi'ed it to my MPC -1000 and also triggered my live drums on the Motif XS and it sounds like it will get the job done.
There is so many live drum sample plugs that's available that if played correctly, it shouldn't be any reason that it would not fool the basic ear.
Thanks again.

& blessings.
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