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Rappers with Musical Skills?
Old 3rd August 2005
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneface
Hey...I had one of those. Mine was red and my brothers was black. Don't be knockin' the Micheal Jackson jacket. heh Ahhhh...those were the days.
Damm... You must have been rich. I wanted one of those so bad, but I was poor. I wanted that red one....
Old 3rd August 2005
  #32
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I wish...don't really know how mama pulled that off. I thank her though for the classic childhood memory.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #33
Dor
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was yours official or the bootleg chess king knock off? I couldn't afford either at the time.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #34
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskid
you seen Aierto Moreira play pandero???

I thought not....
I guess you meant Airto Moreira. Playing a pandero by itself on stage?
Never seen that, no. Did you?
Old 3rd August 2005
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7ciel
I guess you meant Airto Moreira. Playing a pandero by itself on stage?
Never seen that, no. Did you?
fuuck

and yes
Old 3rd August 2005
  #36
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskid
fuuck

and yes
Humm...

I guess you're quite a good and intersting guy.

But you're quite rude too.

I think I will listen to more tambourine music, in order to get educated a little.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7ciel
Humm...

I guess you're quite a good and intersting guy.

But you're quite rude too.

I think I will listen to more tambourine music, in order to get educated a little.
bang on with all comments smart-ass

and I thoroughly recommended educating your bad self with aforementioned tambourine music

ps: did you mean 'interesting' instead of 'intersting'..... fuuck
Old 3rd August 2005
  #38
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didnt dizzee rascal create most of the music on "boy in da corner"? that was some amazing stuff.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dor
was yours official or the bootleg chess king knock off? I couldn't afford either at the time.
Oh, it was a knock off for sure. I was only like 6 or 7 at the time so don't remember much but I would put the jacket on and then slip on the Kangaroo sneakers with the zipper on the side.....oooohhhhhh.....memory lane.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
I'm not a hater, I'm an audio engineer who is simply frustatred by what I've seen and heard in the studio from "rappers". I can't and have no desire to rap. I can create a typical standard rap beat with 5-6 musical parts in about 10-30-45 minutes tops depending on the (choke me for saying this word...) complexity.


Man, i feel what your saying, and i'm sure we all have to deal with all these mediocre kids who think they're already stars. But this comment is just straight up ignorant. So you can create a beat in 45 minutes, but will it be a good beat? It may be musically correct and on point, but will the hip hop community feel it? I doubt it just judging from your attitude. Lets be honest, if you could, you would. What i mean by that is that if you could make beats in 45 minutes that everyone was feeling, you could make a lot of money, which i'm sure you would do. But the truth is, you can't. Thats why your hear complaining about it. You see all these cats making thousands per track off of something that seems so easy, but is actually much more complex than most realize, despite how simple it may sound.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #41
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No SSL put it nicely. Some have real talent no matter where they direct it, many more don't and are just truckin' on delusion. Same as any arena of music though you won't get out of the gate as a jazz trumpeter without some serious skill already developed. I can see why some who are more active in music that is more harmonically or melodically rich than rap can see the form as lacking.
-note to rappers/producers. Let's not argue this point. You'll lose big time. For all it's merits hip hop is way down on the evolutionary chain when it comes to complex harmony and melodic development. e.g. take a listen to Bach or Duke Ellington and try to understand what's going on in there. We're tallking advanced math here where rap is still counting on it's fingers.-
Ok with all that said it probably sounds like I'm belittling rap. Nope, just trying to make a distinction. To those outside of rap's own criteria of quality it may sound simplistic. Yeah try it. Who cares if you can play Chopin on the piano. Doesn't mean you can you can rap convincingly or craft a beat that compels. Most likely you'd just get your ass laughed at and not know why. Yeah it's embarassing and painful when you hear most rappers try and sing a phrase. Ouch. A good rapper however has spent TONS of time developing the nuances of tone and rhythm in delivery and it does get complex. A masterpiece beat is like traditional japanese architecture. Each piece is perfectly sculpted and placed to make a solid structure. Any piece a bit off and the whole thing is compromised. Those Guitar Center beats are tepees in comparision. As it's been said a million times before just cuz a rap artist isn't conventionally skilled muscially doesn't mean they're untalented.

Anybody want to comment on the hip hop cliche of the artist who as soon as they get some money buys a white baby grand but ain't got a clue how to play it?

Another aside on topic. What hip hop artists seem to lack the most is modesty. Sometimes the boasts of imagination in the language and culture don't quite cross over to reality. Some rap artists' delusions of grandeur are hilarious. I remember Wycleff referring to himself as a guitar player in the same league as Santana, and Hendrix. I've seen the dude play guitar. He's certainly familiar with the instrument but in all honesty he kinda sucks.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #42
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I think piano lessons would be counterproductive to some talents personally.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #43
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Old 3rd August 2005
  #44
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I don't think it is possible to copyright a beat. Did you copyright the RECORDING of the beat (SR)?
Old 3rd August 2005
  #45
no ssl yet
Guest
complexity

I hate when guys get in to discussing musical complexity. LOL you say you r not dissing rap, but compare advanced math to finger counting

First of all when is it necessary for music to be complex to be music? Have you listened to much rap outside of what comes on the radio? One of the world's biggest songs was Marvin Gaye's sexual healing. OF course it was simple compared to Basie or Ellington, but it moved the entire country. Sometimes simpler works.


Now as for the irony of a rapper buying a piano. (which is also condescending)
Have you heard flavor flav play piano before? DO you know that he can actually play?

I know this is one example, but I picked one of the artists people would least expect to be able to play.

Guys funny thing is all the guys that get into these discussions usually compare the complexity of someone else's music. I say put up or shut up. WHERE IS YOURS. be it hip hop, jazz, rock, or whatever. I believe only those with talents to do what it is they criticize have the right to be critics.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #46
no ssl yet
Guest
so this is the problem

HERE IS THE PROBLEM via my eyes, and I quote

"Professional hip-hop production at or near the top level of the game is a different animal than what I'm talking about. Most of the "underground" stuff I hear is not at that level. It's guys who rap, who don't have a lot of funds and need demos to get noticed. They can't spend $500-1000-2000+ per song to have someone produce for them. good. "

So we are discussing mediocre rappers and mediocre production's simplicity? LOL I dont wanna have that discussion. Hell ITs like buying the Beat it jacket and thinking you are michael. OF course these guys have little talent.
BUT
DO we discuss the guys buying mexican strats and how terribly they play rock songs

it's pointless. when I think of hip hop I only think of the few with talent. But that's like any genre for every 1 with talent, there are 1 million wannabees

Hell How many "engineers" buy behringer gear and say they are doing "underground " work. We dont call them engineers Do we?
Old 3rd August 2005
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paultools
I don't think it is possible to copyright a beat. Did you copyright the RECORDING of the beat (SR)?
Yes.

Much the same as one would for any instrumental recording. From what I'm told by legal types it's the musical / melody lines and the use of those parts that make it unique and yours. Drums by themselves? I don't really know about that.

Think about the music for 50's "In Da Club", it's the unique string line melodies that make it what it is. The guitar picking is standard fare. The string hits are unique and instantly recognizable.

Maybe someone who knows more about copyrights could chime in on that. I wish I had a song worth stealing! heh

Lawrence
Old 3rd August 2005
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
Guys funny thing is all the guys that get into these discussions usually compare the complexity of someone else's music. I say put up or shut up. WHERE IS YOURS. be it hip hop, jazz, rock, or whatever. I believe only those with talents to do what it is they criticize have the right to be critics.
HEAR HEAR!

This is one of the big ironies of this forum which is otherwise virtuous!
I've said it before... many of the biggest "mouths" around here have the biggest boots, the biggest hat, but no cattle.

Old 3rd August 2005
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paultools
HEAR HEAR!

This is one of the big ironies of this forum which is otherwise virtuous!
I've said it before... many of the biggest "mouths" around here have the biggest boots, the biggest hat, but no cattle.

Hey! tutt

I've already posted a link to four of my productions from about a year ago in another thread...

http://www.garageband.com/AudioCaveDemos

Listen to them, dog them for being weak (I'm quite sure that'll happen cause I think they're a little weak), call me a jerk... whatever... but it's there for all to hear. Listen and then come back and tell me how bad it is. I don't talk about things I don't do and I never said I was a great producer.

But I do have cattle. They may have Mad Cow but I got cattle! heh

Really... I don't belong here. Sorry for intruding on your fine forum.


Lawrence
Old 3rd August 2005
  #50
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I wonder how much of an effect Illmatic had on rappers' musical attentions (I mean: the multi-producer LP phenomenon)? Whereas before it would've usually been a collaborative thing since MC(s) and DJ/producer were a unit (or more so than now).

Peece,
T. Tauri
Old 3rd August 2005
  #51
Gear Maniac
 

i think the DRUMS in a beat are not copyrighted, melody and such are..
to me a "beat" in hiphop therms is more than just the drums..
it's the total of the instrumental composition, drums, melody, etc..
i could be wrong though..
Old 3rd August 2005
  #52
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I think there have been some really good points made by most involved in this thread. I even think some of the venting IS productive. Discussions over differences of opinions can lead to a much more open-mindedness about a certain topic. However, on the flipside, continuing to beat a topic to death with very little new to say is NOT helpful and only helps prove the point of those that would like to see this Hip-Hop forum go away.

I personally think this was an excellent idea and I would like to see it continue But understand, from the key moderaters position, if we can't continue to be productive and keep things moving forward, we all might as well go to futureproducers.com and argue with newbs. (No disrespect intended if you are a member of that site.)

My point is, regardless whether or not there is a Hip-Hop forum with in GS, this is still a high-end website. If we can't maintain that level of professionalizm within this forum, it only hurts ALL of GS at which point I can't see why they would keep it.

I think there are some great talents posting here and I've enjoyed the past couple of days and can really see this being an excellent avenue for so many individuals. Let's not ruin if for everyone. If a topic is dead...let it die and let's move on. If making Hip-Hop is as complex as everyone, including myself, believes it is, then there are many more topics we can cover and continue to learn from one another.

Just my $0.02 worth of foodstamps.

PS: by the time I finished this post there were like 5 new posts so please take this as it needs to be taken. Thanks!
Old 3rd August 2005
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence

But I do have cattle. They may have Mad Cow but I got cattle! heh Back to the R&B forums with me! I don't belong here!

Lawrence
Naw man, stick around... you're good. Discussions like these are beneficial even if they get a little heated. Everyone here has something to learn from everyone here.
No offense intended! thumbsup
Old 3rd August 2005
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaye B
i think the DRUMS in a beat are not copyrighted, melody and such are..
to me a "beat" in hiphop therms is more than just the drums..
it's the total of the instrumental composition, drums, melody, etc..
i could be wrong though..
Here's a scenario that could surprise you:

A lot of times a producer will create a "beat"... drums, bassline, chords, etc and then have a rapper write to it and maybe even record a demo of it. Later, the producer and rapper part ways, and the producer then "sells" the beat to someone else, and the record blows up. The rapper who first wrote to it could take legal action and claim a % of the song and would likely prevail!

Remember, musical works are copyrighted and protected the moment they are created. REGISTERING your work with the Library of Congress affords you proof of ownership, but your work is protected under the law whether you register it or not.

If you are a producer who "leases" beats to artists, make sure you have some sort of document drawn up by a competent entertainment attorney that addresses this issue.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paultools
Naw man, stick around... you're good. Discussions like these are beneficial even if they get a little heated. Everyone here has something to learn from everyone here.
No offense intended! thumbsup


Absolutely!!! Don't take off just because there are differing opinions!!! No matter how much you know or think you know, there is always a LOT more to learn
Old 3rd August 2005
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
I hate when guys get in to discussing musical complexity. LOL you say you r not dissing rap, but compare advanced math to finger counting

First of all when is it necessary for music to be complex to be music? Have you listened to much rap outside of what comes on the radio? One of the world's biggest songs was Marvin Gaye's sexual healing. OF course it was simple compared to Basie or Ellington, but it moved the entire country. Sometimes simpler works.


Now as for the irony of a rapper buying a piano. (which is also condescending)
Have you heard flavor flav play piano before? DO you know that he can actually play?

I know this is one example, but I picked one of the artists people would least expect to be able to play.

Guys funny thing is all the guys that get into these discussions usually compare the complexity of someone else's music. I say put up or shut up. WHERE IS YOURS. be it hip hop, jazz, rock, or whatever. I believe only those with talents to do what it is they criticize have the right to be critics.

Ok I knew I'd catch this kind of response to what I said. Maybe I shouldn't have added anything if I knew it was going to mostly just antagonize. I'm with you about music's value is not tied to it's complexity, 100% and then some. That point has lost a lot of people regarding musical enjoyment. 70's prog rock and jazz fusion come to mind (but not all! let's not start another war.). Soul is the key element whether something is simple or complex in any form of music. Hopefully y'all got the crux of my post not whether rap producer A can find middle C or or Jazz pianist B can craft an airtight beat. You can find offence if you've got a chip on your shoulder from either angle. The bold face point is talent is talent regardless of how it's directed. Top level skills take time and hard work in any game. Comparing one arena by the qualifications of another is unfair and myopic.

As for myself? My credentials neither add weight nor take away from my point. I'm old enough that I've seen the hip hop thing since it was a toddler. By no means was I ever a player in it at any point other than a skinny white kid in LA on a breaking crew in '82 that did some commercials and a lot of shows all over. If it's anything to me since I was 13 it's as a sometimes consumer. Some of the music hits me, alot ain't for me. My credentials were in rock of the particularly abrasive side. Suffice to say any band you've heard of (and many you haven't) out of Seattle in the late 80's to early 90's I've dealt with. These days I like the regular paycheck of post production in NYC and still work in music with some Jamacains you've heard of if you have ears in that direction.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #57
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It's my understanding that the song writer and producer own the rights to whole song, equally. If something is drawn up this could be offset. But I do belive it's a natural 50/50 split. The producer owns half of the lyrics and the writer/artist owns half of the music bed.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #58
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Technically, only lyrics and melody can be copyrighted as a song. Think of "I Love You Just the Way You Are" which is a song with or without the musical accompaniament (Jules, do we have a Spellcheck? LOL). This is how the LOC looks at it. However, a recording of a song (form SR) can also be copyrighted with the splits going as agreed between the parties invloved. If you want to use form PA, then the producer and rapper must be listed as writers of the entire song according to the agreed splits.
Most producers use form NAA (None At All). Beware! tutt
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