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Hip-hop is dead?
Old 4th August 2005
  #31
jho
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hip-hop is dead?

hope so!!











--------
just kidding guys!!! hehe
Old 4th August 2005
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik
everybody knows that..
So why everybody's just talking about rap?

I guess the question would be : are there graffiti artists that make Hip hop live? Are there Hip Hop DJ? Are there break dancer that live Hip Hop?

Really I'm not sure that No ssl yet post was irrellevant here. On the other side, we're on an audio forum, so maybe we should stay on music, and the topic should have been : Is rap dead?

In fact, I think rap is far from dead. Some might dislike the way it goes, but it's still alive.
Old 4th August 2005
  #33
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I just ment that, I believe everybody knows that there´s more to hiphop than just music. Whats the point of getting anal about what phrase to use? I mean the name of the forum has both hiphop and rap in it, eventhough it suppose to discuss matters
from an audio engineering point of view..

If one use the term hiphop in the same phrase as discussing beats or samples or production techniques I think it´s fairly obvious that there will be no miss- understandings. The phrase rap can also be miss understood to ivolve just the actual rapping, accapella or live?

Peace
Old 4th August 2005
  #34
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It seems to me that hip hop is in its "80's glam metal" phase... it has become less about the message and more about what you're wearing.
Old 4th August 2005
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfjis
It seems to me that hip hop is in its "80's glam metal" phase... it has become less about the message and more about what you're wearing.

yea, this is a good analogy.
Old 4th August 2005
  #36
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but that didnt make rock or metal dead, it just changed it.
Old 4th August 2005
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfjis
It seems to me that hip hop is in its "80's glam metal" phase... it has become less about the message and more about what you're wearing.
Methinks BINGO! Now all it will take is the rap equivalent of Nirvana to bring the raw energy of the form into the focus instead of all the peripheral BS.
Old 4th August 2005
  #38
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I doubt "EVERYBODY " knows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik
I just ment that, I believe everybody knows that there´s more to hiphop than just music. Whats the point of getting anal about what phrase to use? I mean the name of the forum has both hiphop and rap in it, eventhough it suppose to discuss matters
from an audio engineering point of view..

If one use the term hiphop in the same phrase as discussing beats or samples or production techniques I think it´s fairly obvious that there will be no miss- understandings. The phrase rap can also be miss understood to ivolve just the actual rapping, accapella or live?

Peace

I wasnt being anal about the name. Hell sometimes I'll say "hip hop music" so for someone who doesnt know much about rap music, it can probably be confusing. We are on a forum where not "EVERYBODY" knows.
Old 4th August 2005
  #39
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Everybody knows

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpasch
I think the clouding of Hip-Hop with Rap will kill it.
It will lose its message and become the empty well-marketed rap that is being mentioned in this thread.
This thread is a perfect example.
More talk about rappers than Hip-Hop artist.

I do agree that as long as we have strife in our society some form of music will exist to oppose it. Will it be Hip-Hop? I doubt.
Many forms of music have spoke for change, and there will be new ones.

IMHO.

D

See here is a division of hip hop music and rap music. WHICH THERE IS NO DIVIDING. Its all rap music, from KOOL G Rap, to Lil John. Some of it may be your preference, but its all rap music.

THERE is no separation of hip hop music and rap music. THIS IS just a mistake
Old 5th August 2005
  #40
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Unfortunately hiphop has been overshadowed by glam hop much like the hair bands overshadowed metal in the late 80s. Like someone mentioned earlier we need a nirvana of hiphop to come by so all this comercial mickeymouse stuff will go away.
Old 5th August 2005
  #41
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Ebb and Flow. It's not going away in the next 20 years. You're obviously looking in the wrong places for good rap was well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by j-uk
Hi fellas,
First off: This is not meant as a diss against hip hop or anything I'm just curious
what you guys think.
The only hip hop album I've heard in the past 2 years that I found interesting was
Foreign Exchange. When it comes to the likes of Missy, Jay c & Co ehr recycling...
Kanye's done some really good stuff on his own but he seems pretty alone in todays music climate trying to do something different.
I can't see hip hop surviving for the next decade unless something happens?
Again I'm not trying to attack someone's personal taste here.

Peace /jay
Old 5th August 2005
  #42
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I don´t like the polished, MTV side of hip hop, it needs to be rough and dirty. To name one example, i think Kool Keith is still pretty dope.

Aside that, the most interesting rap artists are people like Roots Manuva, they are highly skilled and yet able to different styles of music.

there´s so much going on, Dj Vadim, Prefuse and lots of others are working on their definition of Hip Hop since years, and it still is quite interesting.
Old 5th August 2005
  #43
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Could someone explain to me what the "hip-hop culture" is and how it differs (except for the music) from a young urban culture of any other generation? People constantly say "Hip-Hop is a culture, a way of life, this thing of ours..., it's not about the music..."

Explain it to me. What is different about the behavior, attitudes, expectations, dreams of today's urban youth from say, the urban youths of the 70's? I mean besides the rise in random deadly gun violence?

I'll tell you from my point of view young urban self described "hip-hoppers" are generally much less respectful of their communities and those who came before them. To have a 16 year-old driving down the block where small children are playing outisde smoking blunts and blasting profane music? Is that the hip-hop culture? The young woman I saw with two little girls in her car while blasting Lil Kim XXX rated raps? Is that the hip-hop culture? Giving a performer a BJ on stage during a live show? Is that it? Is it the brawl at the Source awards?

If hip-hop is a culture which is seperate from the music you should be able to tell me what that is with NO reference to music, artists, rappers, groups etc. Who are these hip-hop people? What do they do? What is their mission? It ALWAYS gets back to the music or people who make hip-hop music. Has there ever been a meeting of the "hip-hop culture" without a bunch of rap stars there taking a lead role? Why do 50,000 hip-hoppers show up for the "get the vote out concert" to see the rap stars and only 5,000 vote? Who's are the "hip-hop" leaders? Rappers?

No offense but this is a serious question. Don't ask me to read what someone else wrote. Tell me what it is to you. Leave the music out of it if you can.

If you can't do that then stop saying "It's not the music, it's a culture aside from the music." That's just marketing to sell you clothes and bling. There has always been, as long as there has been an America, people in poverty and an "oppressed" lower class. Were the Black Panthers hip-hop?

Much of the "oppression" I see today is actually "suppression" of the kinds of logical thought processes that could overcome poverty and racism. You know, like not shooting a guy to death because he beat you in a fistfight? Like not showing the entire world the crack of your ass when you go outside?

In case you don't know where the saggin' pants style comes from... prison. An entire generation is being successfully marketed the "I'm in jail, they took my belt, my pants are saggin'..." fashion. Belts tied down below the ass cheeks. Sure... I'll hire you to represent my company.

Yep... that'll overcome poverty and racism every time. If only MLK was a hip-hop guy. He could have done so much more.

Lawrence
Old 7th August 2005
  #44
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Lawrence, if you wanna know more about it, check out KRS One and some of his lectures and stuff he has written. He's really way more into it than most, but he's just taking it to the extreme. Most aren't quite that extreme about it.

But hip hop is more than just music. Its graffiti, MC, DJ, and b-boy. Thats how it started. It IS a culture, a lifestyle. I'm not gonna go any deeper into it than that for now.

This **** you see out here nowadays aint really hip hop. The stuff you see is corporate america's hip hop. The "hip hop is culture" thing is not marketing. Hip hop and its culture were around way before anyone was trying to market it or mass produce it. But the fact that i have to sit here and explain any of this tells me that no matter what i say, you won't understand.
Old 7th August 2005
  #45
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Everytime I ask someone refers me to some writing by a musician or rapper. KRS One?

MC? = Master of Cermony? Music.,, ; DJ? = Disc Jockey? Music...; B-boy? = ?? Not sure what that is... is it music related perhaps?

Grafitti's been around forever, kids were doing graffiti on walls in NY in the early 1900's... like 1920 maybe before. Actually kids were doing most everything that's being done today except the extreme senseless violence. Young people were gathering and reciting poems in coffee houses that spoke of the issues of the day. Not new. I've seen most of it before. Urban poetry? The Russell Simmons poetry thing isn't new. They just talk about different stuff. It all comes back to music and clothes and bling.

Once everybody wanted to be Superfly with the big hats and loud clothes... big pimping, buy a Caddy. Then along came the "designer" times where everybody walked around with tight designer jeans and Louie Vattan stuff. Then the sweatsuit period where all over urban America people were going out at night to nice clubs regularly dressed in Adidas sweatgear and gymshoes. Before that? Really nice suits or really sharp clothes ($100 silk shirts and $75 dress shoes, not gym shoes ) and $50 fingerwave hairstyles. Hot pants, cornrows, runnin' trains (freakin' hoes as it's called today) it's the same stuff just a different time.

Each period had it's own music. Each period had good people and thugs although the thugs today are mindless. They all liked most of the same styles of music. Some sold drugs (weed, angel dust, speed), some went to college, some went to jail, some fell in between. Fashions came from movies and TV mostly, music videos didn't exist yet. They were all young people being influenced by the current fashion trends and popular music. That's fine. The reason TV & Movies exist is to convince you to buy something.

People don't just wake up one day and say... "I think I'll start buying my pants 5 sizes bigger and let them hang really low starting today..." You saw it on TV, in a video, someone told you it was cool, or everybody else was doing it so you didn't wanna be the odd ball. That's fine. That's called a fashion trend. People go to school to earn degrees to learn how to (among other things) convince us that our old clothes need to go so we spend money on the latest thing. It's a very lucrative career called advertising. BTW, you need some new rims if you wanna pickup girls.

While you're there get some Jordans so you can jump really high. Never mind they cost $170 and you still don't have a college fund yet or your own apartment. You need them. Really, you can't be cool without them. Also, I couldn't hear your car stereo from 6 blocks away so you should really get a new 150,000 zillion watt car stereo with a 50" sub. No self-respecting hip-hopper would be without one. To hell with working people trying to sleep or enjoy the privacy of their homes... you gotta be cool right? It's all about you right? Go for it. You need it. They tell you so on TV everyday so it's gotta be true.

Rappers get paid $$$ to hold certain cans of soda during TV interviews. If all the top hip-hop artists started wearing skintight leather pants, eventually a lot of regular people would do the same. It would look really silly at first, like the saggin pants did. Nobody pays attention anymore because everybody does it.
The only thing I see different are the clothes, the music, the high cost of the bling ($3k for spinners and still living with your parents?) , the rush to deadly action and the utter lack of respect (by some) for the community as a whole.

I know for a fact there are MANY, MANY, MANY intelligent, educated and thoughtful people who are part of the so-called hip-hop "culture". I just don't know exactly what that means. Is it a fashion trend or a culture? I don't really know.

It doesn't matter. It'll change eventually anyway. It always does.

Lawrence
Old 7th August 2005
  #46
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i think the problem here is what you see as an outsider looking in. All you see is whats on MTV and all that crap. And you bring up very valid points, which all the rest of the hip hop culture is fed up over, just as you are. I'm part of that culture, and i don't buy into all that bull****. If 50 Cent started wearing a mumu, i'm not gonna go wear a mumu. Thats just silly. Hip hop is definitely not a trend, it just happens to be whats trendy right now. So you have all these media giants and huge corporations just raping it dry. But it will survive and grow. Hip hop culture was around before Sony and Interscope gave a **** about it, and it will be here a lot longer, regardless of its little stages it goes through. Even rock had the 80's!!!!

But to answer your question, hip hop culture is definitely not a trend or a fashion statement. Maybe you need to dig a little deeper than whats on the surface. There's a lot of guys out there that come with some real positive, thoughtful, soulful stuff, you just won't find them on MTV or BET. Sad but true, but blame corporate america for that.
Old 7th August 2005
  #47
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Lawrence,

It's just a bad fad like bad disco was a fad.

Problem is, now that it's all old hat, something worse may come along to replace it. There's always a danger in killing off fads for that reason.

I hope the next fad involves more nudity...(all the great looking models who can't sing and are now Autotuned to death will then at least have to look like Playboy Playmates). If we have more nudity you won't be badgered into buying clothes that look really stupid in old photographs and you feel really embarrassed for being talked into buying or wearing something you not not like in the first place.

Nudity = Good
Bad Fashion Clothes and all clothes = Bad

Men's fashions ought to be restricted to "timeless" suits and ties and T-shirts and Levy's, that's it. Then we can can get on with the real business of life.

Screw fashion.
Old 7th August 2005
  #48
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Lawrence, if you honestly wish to become informed about hip-hop culture or elements of it, check out the two documentaries, 'Scratch' and 'The Art of Freestyling'.

Uneducated criticisms of a culture come across as xenophobic.
Old 7th August 2005
  #49
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Thanks. I read some stuff on the B-Boys site that kinda opened my eyes. I was honestly interested in finding out how hip-hop is...
Quote:
..a culture aside and apart from the music...
which I've heard over and over many times.

Well now I know. It's really not... which is fine. The hip-hop culture is (apparently) based on the pure (intended) form of the music and/or performance arts which include all of the things you guys talked about. True hip-hop seems to be enlightning and much more positive and creative. I gotta find some real hip-hop artists and stop dealing with these idiots who call themselves that. After reading that paper I could immediately equate that to the culture of jazz, and how true jazz artists feel about it's commercial direction. It was the "seperate from the music" comments that threw me off. Athough the art (graffitti) styles are unique and seperate from the music, true hip-hop (at it's base) seems to be about the musical styles and the honesty and creativeness of the performances and the performers.

Thanks to you all. I meant no harm, people told me hi-hop is a movement or something. Many had described hip-hop culture to me like the hippies of the 60's who, while certainly tied to certain musical styles, had moved as one to try and change the world. Or at least their government's way of thinking. What I was searching for was the hip-hop belief system. I found it. Keeping the true forms of the art alive irregardless of the mainstream's media negative portrayal of it.

If I offended anyone by my comments I apologize. I learned something. That's always good. Sometimes painful but always good.

Lawrence
Old 8th August 2005
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Thanks. I read some stuff on the B-Boys site that kinda opened my eyes. I was honestly interested in finding out how hip-hop is... which I've heard over and over many times.

Well now I know. It's really not... which is fine. The hip-hop culture is (apparently) based on the pure (intended) form of the music and/or performance arts which include all of the things you guys talked about. True hip-hop seems to be enlightning and much more positive and creative. I gotta find some real hip-hop artists and stop dealing with these idiots who call themselves that. After reading that paper I could immediately equate that to the culture of jazz, and how true jazz artists feel about it's commercial direction. It was the "seperate from the music" comments that threw me off. Athough the art (graffitti) styles are unique and seperate from the music, true hip-hop (at it's base) seems to be about the musical styles and the honesty and creativeness of the performances and the performers.

Thanks to you all. I meant no harm, people told me hi-hop is a movement or something. Many had described hip-hop culture to me like the hippies of the 60's who, while certainly tied to certain musical styles, had moved as one to try and change the world. Or at least their government's way of thinking. What I was searching for was the hip-hop belief system. I found it. Keeping the true forms of the art alive irregardless of the mainstream's media negative portrayal of it.

If I offended anyone by my comments I apologize. I learned something. That's always good. Sometimes painful but always good.

Lawrence



great to hear lawrence!!! No offense taken here. I'm glad you took the time to enlighten yourself. The music is definitely not seperate from hip hop culture, whoever told you that was talking out their ass. Your on the right track now though, good luck on finding some true hip hop music that you like.
Old 8th August 2005
  #51
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Hip Hop

I think Hip Hop culture extends Beyond music, but I wouldnt say it was a separate entity. It began with the language,dress, mannerisms of hip hop artists/dancers/etc... So to attempt to discuss it without naming an artist is pretty futile
Old 8th August 2005
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELI-173
I hate new radio hip hop. There is an occasional cool track. But it's all micky mouse music to me now. Useless, throw away songs. One after the next. It's not the same, and the soul is not there. I almost never hear anything interesting being said. Gimme some Eric B and Rakim and I'm happy.


Rappers like Rakim would make you think a lot about what they were saying. The message being sent to kids in the hood now is: You should have this car, and these diamonds. Thats what life is all about. It's so sad I don't even know where to start.
Old 8th August 2005
  #53
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this thread is like a jungle sometimes... it makes me wonder how i keep from goin under
Old 9th August 2005
  #54
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Hiphop will never die....evolve...yes....change...yes....re-define itself...yes...but never die. Rock has come a long way, it sure as hell doesn't sound anything like it did 40 years ago...but its still rock...it evolved....just like hiphop will!!! at least I hope !! If and when rap isn't the flavor of the moment and rappers stop being the ultimate representation of pop culture and corporate America leaves the music alone it may get in touch with its roots and revert back to being a deep and incredible music....!!!
just my 0.02 cents....
Old 9th August 2005
  #55
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The great thing about Hip Hop in 2005 is that the producer is stepping into the forground alongside and many times eclipsingthe rappers on the track. This is a very good development. Inteligent important raps will work it's way back into the mainstream at some point, if only to compete with the seriousness of the super-producers.
"Back in the Day I knew Rap would never Die!"
Old 9th August 2005
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gb-jazz
The great thing about Hip Hop in 2005 is that the producer is stepping into the forground alongside and many times eclipsingthe rappers on the track. This is a very good development. Inteligent important raps will work it's way back into the mainstream at some point, if only to compete with the seriousness of the super-producers.
"Back in the Day I knew Rap would never Die!"
.

It's a good point, but one I respectfully dissagree with as being good. Now a days the artist is just a label on the can. I think the reason the producers are being coming more into play is because the artists are becoming less and less talented or perhaps less and less needed as a producer can just do everything alone and find some artists laky who will be the spokesmodel for their music. This makes the artist nothing more than a marketting *tool*. No one is in the wrong, but it's all about becoming part of the machine. If more producers started caring about the quality they put out rather than the bottom line check, THEN maybe important raps will work their way back. Unti then it will continue to be a clown show.
Old 10th August 2005
  #57
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyclueless
.

If more producers started caring about the quality they put out rather than the bottom line check, THEN maybe important raps will work their way back. Unti then it will continue to be a clown show.
Correct and I can only speak for myself when I say that the quality and content of rapping will improve as the producer becomes more prominent. I feel like having the producers becoming more and more important than say the A&R can be helpful to rap's future as legitimate soul music. But you are right, first the producer needs to start reconsidering the art instead of just the bottom line. It all comes down to producers having the conviction/principles as well as the incentive to start making records that are not just disposable pieces of expensive garbage on the side of this super highway called the music industry. Do we have the balls to try and make a "Classic" every time we write a new song or does it have to be a "Hit"? As long as the hip-hop/rap music industry continues to require hits but not classics, it will stay disposable. Luckily with todays technology these desicions are slowly being taken out of the Record Execs hands and placed directly into the consumers. Only time will tell if I'm right or wrong about this, but one thing's for sure, Hip-hop is not dead. Ima do what I can to live up to my high expectations of making classics, what about the rest of you?
Old 10th August 2005
  #58
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I saw "Style Wars" recently.

For those who don't know, its a documentary of Hip-hop in New York at the very beginning. If you haven't seen it, see it now. Its AMAZING.

The intellegence and talent of some of the kids in that movie is astounding. A level unmatched by anyone in commercial hip-hop nowadays. I see this movie, and then turn on mtv to compare, and I am truely sad at the potential that's been wasted. What the hell happened? Besides money...or is that what happened? Or mabye the freshness and innocence is gone for good? I'm just asking.
Old 10th August 2005
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Generic
I saw "Style Wars" recently.

For those who don't know, its a documentary of Hip-hop in New York at the very beginning. If you haven't seen it, see it now. Its AMAZING.

The intellegence and talent of some of the kids in that movie is astounding. A level unmatched by anyone in commercial hip-hop nowadays. I see this movie, and then turn on mtv to compare, and I am truely sad at the potential that's been wasted. What the hell happened? Besides money...or is that what happened? Or mabye the freshness and innocence is gone for good? I'm just asking.


yea, i think money had a lot to do with it. It lost the hunger. But its still there if you look at the underground. Its the corporate MTV side of it thats ****ing it up, but that goes for all music in general.
Old 10th August 2005
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gb-jazz
Correct and I can only speak for myself when I say that the quality and content of rapping will improve as the producer becomes more prominent. I feel like having the producers becoming more and more important than say the A&R can be helpful to rap's future as legitimate soul music. But you are right, first the producer needs to start reconsidering the art instead of just the bottom line. It all comes down to producers having the conviction/principles as well as the incentive to start making records that are not just disposable pieces of expensive garbage on the side of this super highway called the music industry. Do we have the balls to try and make a "Classic" every time we write a new song or does it have to be a "Hit"? As long as the hip-hop/rap music industry continues to require hits but not classics, it will stay disposable. Luckily with todays technology these desicions are slowly being taken out of the Record Execs hands and placed directly into the consumers. Only time will tell if I'm right or wrong about this, but one thing's for sure, Hip-hop is not dead. Ima do what I can to live up to my high expectations of making classics, what about the rest of you?
I agree with you. hope I didn't come off as saying "producers are bad" or something. lol! Actually any fault I place now I would place on the labels, not so much the producers. Producers are jsut trying to do their thing. But one of the current problems is that the "sounds" become that of the producer and not the artists. So the artists have no real identity other than marketting. And because the labels don't know anything about anything, they just try to jump on whatever the hottest current name is and run every arist through that producer like a factory. Then every artist ends up sounding exactly like everyone else. While I respect the neptunes, I think they have indirectly hurt music. Now they just like what they do and like anyone else are just trying to do their best. But the fact that the labels are having pretty much everyone do neputnes songs makes everyone sund like the neptunes and to be honest, it's boring me to death. No matter how good a producer is, if EVERYONE sounds exactly the same, it's gonna be a bad thing. Right now one of the compounding problems is that many current producers are ALSO jumping on that bandwagon. So now almost every song on the radio (since we're only really talking about commrcial music) sounds exactly the same. It may be a cool sound, but it lost its cool after the 1st 100 artists came out with the same song. After Britney came out with "slave For You", pretty much everything has been the same song.

I guess this has been a pretty common theme throughout music history, but this time HipHop and R&B (which are now pretty much the same thing lately) have fallen victoms of it (which was inevitable). I don't think there is a whole lot we or producers can do, I just think the labels need to start learning about HipHop & R&B and start taking more chances so that people will buy music again.

PS - I am currently working with an R&B group who I feel is how it should be (group of singers, and diverse music (some programmed, some live, some combos, etc)), but I have a feeling it will go nowhere simply because they aren't following the machine format. It just makes me kinda sad I guess.
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