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The Beginning of Hip Hop: Who was there (Engineer)? Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 2nd September 2008
  #1
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The Beginning of Hip Hop: Who was there (Engineer)?

Hello Geraslutz-Community,

I asked myself serveral times, what thought the Engineers in the late 80's and early 90's, when a Producer (like Pete Rock) or a Crew (Bomb Squad, etc) came to the big and expensive Studios with there Turntable and 12-Bit Sampler and present that muddy-dirty sound of allready mixed sounds (samples)?

What have they done with that material? Yes, I can imagine: the put eq', compressor on it and put it on studer-tape. But to be honest, I don't know!! I mean, the Sound on the CD was still dirty and not only because of the "12Bit Samples".. it seems that some mixes have only lows and mid-lows!

For example: does they use Reverb for depth-scaling, or whatever?

It would be very interesting for me, to hear whats going on back in the days in the studios, when the rap-kids came up, with the muddy sounds?

Thank you guys!
-Jermaine
Old 2nd September 2008
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermaine View Post
Hello Geraslutz-Community,

I asked myself serveral times, what thought the Engineers in the late 80's and early 90's, when a Producer (like Pete Rock) or a Crew (Bomb Squad, etc) came to the big and expensive Studios with there Turntable and 12-Bit Sampler and present that muddy-dirty sound of allready mixed sounds (samples)?

What have they done with that material? Yes, I can imagine: the put eq', compressor on it and put it on studer-tape. But to be honest, I don't know!! I mean, the Sound on the CD was still dirty and not only because of the "12Bit Samples".. it seems that some mixes have only lows and mid-lows!

For example: does they use Reverb for depth-scaling, or whatever?

It would be very interesting for me, to hear whats going on back in the days in the studios, when the rap-kids came up, with the muddy sounds?

Thank you guys!
-Jermaine
Some of the hip hop oriented engineers back then were Rod Hui at Greene Street studios where the first Run DMC stuff was recorded.
Jimmy Bralower was the drum programmer.
Later,they used John King at Chun King studios.
of course,Premier and his bunch used D and D studios alot.

Bobby Nathans Unique Studios became huge insofar as having avery drum machine,sampler,keyboard, you could name and millions of sounds in his library.
Bobby of course, later started URS plugins.

What is "depth scaling'???
Old 2nd September 2008
  #3
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thank you very much for the kind answer! i will search in the web, for the names!

with "depth-scaling" i'm mean, thedifferentiation of the sounds/instruments in the depth (like panning, but not left/ right, I mean: "front" "behind") with reverbs. do you know what i mean?
Old 2nd September 2008
  #4
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Look on YouTube for Run-DMC stuff. Their "King of Rock" album has quite a bit of reverb textures.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermaine View Post
thank you very much for the kind answer! i will search in the web, for the names!

with "depth-scaling" i'm mean, thedifferentiation of the sounds/instruments in the depth (like panning, but not left/ right, I mean: "front" "behind") with reverbs. do you know what i mean?
Back then,they used alot of the AMS RMX 16 with the 1.5 second reverb time setting, or there abouts.
You can kind of hear it on "Its Like That" by Run DMC.

They also used other gated and non lin reverb efx.
Sometimes they would use the studios EMT plate and gate the return to their liking.
That was kind of an "eighties thing" at the time.
Listen to Let The Music Play" by Shannon which was recorded and mixed at grene Street studios by Rod Hui.
Chris Barbosa did the drum programming and I believe that there was a Linn LM1 along with an 808 snare mixed in with that gated plate thing.

Planet Rock was recorded at Inter Galactic studios and John Robie did the programing on probably the first 808 based hit record.
I believe that it was mixed at Unique.

BTW.the Lord-Alge bros got their start at Unique!!
Old 2nd September 2008
  #6
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thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and let us look behind the beats of that era!

but what's with that early 90's stuff; like pete rock & cl smooth, black moon and other ny stuff. i think it was very difficult to mix those muddy and dirty instrumentals, with 99% sampled stuff and no electronic sounds/ keyboards (maybe on 808 under the kick)?
Old 2nd September 2008
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysoulman View Post
BTW.the Lord-Alge bros got their start at Unique!!


a LOT of people got their start at Unique! Great place to be back then.

Bobby Nathan is a real nice guy too.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #8
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many engineers made their mark back then. I've got to give a particular shout out to Tony Maserati. I was just getting to NYC in 1993 and i assisted him many times. He did alot of big records back then, but most notably i'd say he was most responsible for helping craft the sonics of Bad Boy Records and Uptown Records early on. Certainly one step past the early Run DMC and Pete Rock years but worth a mention. Tony is still one of the very best in the biz.

Bob Brockman was also one of those guys very busy in the early 90's mixing those records.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #9
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I worked in Tommy Uzzo's studio (mirror image) and he used to tell me about the old days with EPMD , redman, keith murray, coolio and many others. He told me that he approached hip hop mixing as he would anything else except he turned the bass and kick up 4db more then he usually did and they liked it. He also said they were very respectful of his opinion and let him guide them as to what sounded good or what sounded too muddy. To this day all of the above artists have incredibly good ears and they know how to express what they want properly to an engineer.

http://tommyuzzo.com/client.htm
Old 3rd September 2008
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
many engineers made their mark back then. I've got to give a particular shout out to Tony Maserati. I was just getting to NYC in 1993 and i assisted him many times. He did alot of big records back then, but most notably i'd say he was most responsible for helping craft the sonics of Bad Boy Records and Uptown Records early on. Certainly one step past the early Run DMC and Pete Rock years but worth a mention. Tony is still one of the very best in the biz.

Bob Brockman was also one of those guys very busy in the early 90's mixing those records.
thumbsupthumbsup
Old 3rd September 2008
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
many engineers made their mark back then. I've got to give a particular shout out to Tony Maserati. I was just getting to NYC in 1993 and i assisted him many times. He did alot of big records back then, but most notably i'd say he was most responsible for helping craft the sonics of Bad Boy Records and Uptown Records early on. Certainly one step past the early Run DMC and Pete Rock years but worth a mention. Tony is still one of the very best in the biz.

Bob Brockman was also one of those guys very busy in the early 90's mixing those records.
Tony Maserati is also the engineer on most of those Full Force/Lisa Lisa records.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
a LOT of people got their start at Unique! Great place to be back then.
I started out as an electro DJ back in 82/83.

The electro records done at Unique always had a huge sound. Very well produced. thumbsup

I loved Herb Powers Jr's mastering on that stuff too... plus his mastering on many disco-boogie tracks.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #13
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not quite sure but I think in the early days of hip hop we had:

Fred, Lamont, Grady, Bubba, Esther, & Uncle Woodrow heh
Old 3rd September 2008
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk D View Post
I started out as an electro DJ back in 82/83.

The electro records done at Unique always had a huge sound. Very well produced. thumbsup

I loved Herb Powers Jr's mastering on that stuff too... plus his mastering on many disco-boogie tracks.

Actually alot of the early 80's electro records were cut at the old Vanguard studios by Mark Berry and Andy Wallace.

This would include all of the early productions by Arthur Baker/John Robie like-Soul Sonic Force (Looking For The Perfect Beat), Planet Patrol (Play At Your Own Risk), Awesome Foursome (Funky Soul Makosa), New Edition (Candy Girl), Jellybean, Arthur Baker, Freeze (AEIOU), Eddie O’Loughlin (Next Plateau), John Robie, C-Bank (One More Shot), Tommy Silverman (Tommy Boy Records), Importe 12 Records, Man Parrish (the groundbreaking Hip Hop Be Bop) and many more.

Most of the famous Unique stuff actually came more mid 80's and on.

Lots of people don't know that Unique started out as a rehearsal studio first & lots of bands that rehearsed there wanted to record as well, so they kinda built the studio as they went eventually becomng exclusively a recording studio.

In terms of the early 90's hiphop sound the most influential studios were Greene Street, Power Play, Firehouse & probably Chung King. John King owner of Chung King was a smart guy in that he saw the potential financially that Rap could do and in exchange for studio/development time he got points on alot of rap records that eventually sold millions. Also like many who have worked in the studio business for more than 20 years dealing with Rap entourages has always been a problem, even back then in the 80's. Basically the hi end studios stopped taking rap artists as clients since their posses would either trash the studio, steal equipment or wreak havoc on the neighbors.

He found a way around it by setting up a wall in Chung King itself that all artists and their posses could tag up instead of destroying the studio or the property around it. Being the eclectic downtown artists that he is, this wall became pretty famous because of the names that are on it.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #15
In terms of mastering engineers i think probably Howie Weinberg over at Masterdisk had the most influence.

Here is a great interview with him speaking his mind:

Red Bull Music Academy - Video Archive - Howie Weinberg
Old 3rd September 2008
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
Actually alot of the early 80's electro records were cut at the old Vanguard studios by Mark Berry and Andy Wallace.
DAMMIT!!!! you beat me to it!! Yeah, Andy also used to make Disco Records! (for those of you who do not know who Andy Wallace is, turn on any modern rock radio station in the country and at least 1 of every 4 mixes you hear is probably Andy Wallace)

Damn, thrill Factor, you just blew my mind mentioning Power Play and Firehouse. Power Play was the first studio i ever interviewed at for a job in NYC. They didnt hire me. I never did sessions there. grudge maybe heh And Firehouse, wow, whata dive. i did some of my early freelance work there around 1995. I remember the Tag wall at Chung King, but had totally forgotten it til mentioned. Did anyone mention D&D yet?

I came up thru Soundtrack Studios in Manhattan in 1993 - 1995. Man, so many hip hop LEGENDS came thru there. Biggie made his first album there. and just about every known artist in rap came thru there at one time or another. My first week on the intern shift at Soundtrack, i remember having to carry LL Cool J 2" Reels from one building to another and just thinking "WOW, i'm carrying LL's Master Tapes!!!" what a rush back then.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
DAMMIT!!!! you beat me to it!! Yeah, Andy also used to make Disco Records! (for those of you who do not know who Andy Wallace is, turn on any modern rock radio station in the country and at least 1 of every 4 mixes you hear is probably Andy Wallace).
You know what's funny about AW is he engineered Mtumes "Juicy Fruit" and Oran Juice Jones "Walking in the rain" as well as Nu shooz "I Can't wait".

But Hiphop wise he engineered/mixed and co produced probably the song that broke rap into the pop mainstream Run DMC/Aerosmith "Walk this Way" over at Chung King.

Just to have those on a Discography would be enough for some of us but of course he went on to do Nirvana's "Nevermind" and Jeff Buckley's "Grace" so i guess it wasn't enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
Damn, thrill Factor, you just blew my mind mentioning Power Play and Firehouse. Power Play was the first studio i ever interviewed at for a job in NYC. They didnt hire me. I never did sessions there. grudge maybe heh And Firehouse, wow, whata dive. i did some of my early freelance work there around 1995. I remember the Tag wall at Chung King, but had totally forgotten it til mentioned. Did anyone mention D&D yet?.
Yeah i freelanced at Power Play more towards the end and after he relocated it( Eric B & Rakim "Paid in Full" & EPMD "Unfinished business" "Business as usual" was cut at Power Play).

Firehouse in alot of ways to me was what the project studios would eventually become. There was all kinds of crazy outboard gear and a ****ty Peavey mixing board. Yoram's idea was to track through and mix through the outboard and leave as little as possible for the Peavey. Firehouse & Such a Sound studios( i think both owned by the same guy) was also famous because that's where artists like Gang Starr,Wu Tang Clan, Masta Ace Inc cut their early hit records.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
I came up thru Soundtrack Studios in Manhattan in 1993 - 1995. Man, so many hip hop LEGENDS came thru there. Biggie made his first album there. and just about every known artist in rap came thru there at one time or another. My first week on the intern shift at Soundtrack, i remember having to carry LL Cool J 2" Reels from one building to another and just thinking "WOW, i'm carrying LL's Master Tapes!!!" what a rush back then.
SOundtrack is another studio with a big history in the world of hiphop/R&B.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
You know what's funny about AW is he engineered Mtumes "Juicy Fruit" and Oran Juice Jones "Walking in the rain" as well as Nu shooz "I Can't wait".

But Hiphop wise he engineered/mixed and co produced probably the song that broke rap into the pop mainstream Run DMC/Aerosmith "Walk this Way" over at Chung King.

Just to have those on a Discography would be enough for some of us but of course he went on to do Nirvana's "Nevermind" and Jeff Buckley's "Grace" so i guess it wasn't enough.
Dude, you just blew my mind again!! i had no idea Andy did that "WALK THIS WAY" record! GEEEZ UUSSSS. Andy did alot of his mixing and production at Soundtrack starting in 1994, so i was around for alot of it. I engineered on Soul Asylum's "Let Your Dim Light Shine" album which Andy was mixing down the hall as i was tracking in the API room. That was the first record he and Butch Vig made together since Nevermind. And before that, Andy did all the O/D's and mixing for Buckley's Grace in the API room at Soundtrack. I didnt work on that record but always saw Jeff wandering the halls or the lobby and chatted with him from time to time. what a classic album Grace was!

Butch Vig told me that Cobain hand picked Andy to mix Nevermind out of about 30 discographies because Andy had mixed Slayer!!!
From Disco, to Hip Hip to Slayer to Nirvana, to Sheryl Crow Linkin Park to 500 other records. That guy is simply a genius, and a super nice guy too. showed me a bunch of mixing stuff when he was mixing the Soul Asylum album.

Yeah, Soundtrack was a really great place to be in the early to mid 90's. Andy Wallace making rock records and a gazillion other hip hop and R&B sessions going on all the time in every room. My how things change. Actually i think Andy still works out of there, but their record clients have mostly dried up. they do alot of film and TV work nowadays.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
You know what's funny about AW is he engineered Mtumes "Juicy Fruit" and Oran Juice Jones "Walking in the rain" as well as Nu shooz "I Can't wait".

But Hiphop wise he engineered/mixed and co produced probably the song that broke rap into the pop mainstream Run DMC/Aerosmith "Walk this Way" over at Chung King.

Just to have those on a Discography would be enough for some of us but of course he went on to do Nirvana's "Nevermind" and Jeff Buckley's "Grace" so i guess it wasn't enough.



Yeah i freelanced at Power Play more towards the end and after he relocated it( Eric B & Rakim "Paid in Full" & EPMD "Unfinished business" "Business as usual" was cut at Power Play).

Firehouse in alot of ways to me was what the project studios would eventually become. There was all kinds of crazy outboard gear and a ****ty Peavey mixing board. Yoram's idea was to track through and mix through the outboard and leave as little as possible for the Peavey. Firehouse & Such a Sound studios( i think both owned by the same guy) was also famous because that's where artists like Gang Starr,Wu Tang Clan, Masta Ace Inc cut their early hit records.




SOundtrack is another studio with a big history in the world of hiphop/R&B.
Wasnt Juicy Fruit recorded at EARS in East orange,NJ??
That was Mtumes home base before Sigma NY.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #20
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Lets not forget Blank Tapes near the Limelight ,Sorcerer, and that little studio down near Wall street where Keith Sweat did I Want Her , as well as his first two albums,and where alot of the Sleeping Bag stuff lke Joyce Sims etc was recorded.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #21
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don't forget hank shocklee who did lot's of public enemy stuff.

also, Bob Power worked a lot w/ A tribe called quest.

both of them have been written up in various mags in recent years. there's a funny story somewhere about shocklee locking madonna out of the studio when mixing.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #22
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Lets definetly not forget Bob Powers...Tribe records were trully classic especially in sounds....and of course don't forget Troy Hightower....especially when you mention Mirror Image Studios....in my opinion probably the best hiphop mixer...and a great mentor..
Old 3rd September 2008
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westward728 View Post
Lets definetly not forget Bob Powers...Tribe records were trully classic especially in sounds....and of course don't forget Troy Hightower....especially when you mention Mirror Image Studios....in my opinion probably the best hiphop mixer...and a great mentor..
Troy Hightower did a ton of of early to mid 90's hip hop. I assisted him on alot of it and he taught me alot too when he was staff engineer at Soundtrack. He was certainly my biggest early influence in hip hop.

Bob Powers is from some other planet. the things he does with sound i just cant figure out. Angela Piva certainly warrants a big mention. She did alot of Naughty By Nature and a ton of other records of that era. Rich Travali, Bill Esses, Rich July, Paul Logas all warrant mention.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #24
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Eddie Sancho (DJ Premier), and Michael Patterson (Puffy, Biggie, etc...)...i assisted Michael for a long time and learned a great deal from him. People don't give him the credit he deserves but lets not forget "Life After Death" and how amaazing it sounded....and yes i know others mixed on it as well but he did the majority.....kudo's to him!
Old 3rd September 2008
  #25
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In the early eighties,I did a lot of stuff with Jimmy Douglass when he was at Atlantic and I was producing some artists over there.
Dennis King was mastering engineer.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
Rich Travali, Bill Esses, Rich July, Paul Logas all warrant mention.
Rich Travali was and may still be my fav. the combo of his mixes and herb powers mastering is unbeatable.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #27
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enough of this memory lane crap answer the original question
Old 4th September 2008
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermaine View Post
For example: does they use Reverb for depth-scaling, or whatever?

It would be very interesting for me, to hear whats going on back in the days in the studios, when the rap-kids came up, with the muddy sounds?

Thank you guys!
-Jermaine
usually an MPC 60 or SP1200 patched directly into SSL E series mic pre's, or in the other studios, whatever they had, D&D had a Harrison, old Neve's were around, but alot of E series SSL's. occasionally into line inputs but i always brought them into mic pre's. thru the large fader, maybe some EQ and compression to tape, maybe not. Analog 2 inch tape running at 30 ips. no noise reduction.

mixes would be a very similar situation, a whole lot of mixing on SSL E Series and then G Series boards from 2 inch tape mixed to half inch tape for a mixdown medium, with backups to DAT.

some people used a mountain of outboard, guys like Troy Hightower used very little outboard. Nearfields were almost always NS-10's and alot of the hip hop guys also liked Tannoy DMT 12's to suppliment. Mains were usually Tannoy DMT 215's or Urie 813's. rarely ever saw subwoofers in studios. Genelec nearfields were kinda popular with some freelancers.

most of the reverbs used back then would be Lexicon 224, 480L, PCM 70's and PCM 60's. sometimes Yamaha Rev 5's and Rev 7's. AMS Reverbs. real plates. almost every room had either Lex PCM 41's or PCM 42's. alot of Pultec's, API, Neve, Lang outboard EQ's in alot of rooms.

almost always a turntable or two in the room to sample from or scratch on. everything locked up using SMPTE. tape machines locked together with SMPTE and SMPTE fed to the MPC 60 locked that, and the MPC would spit midi out to the keyboards if you were using any of those.

I almost never engineered a hip hop session where an MPC or SP1200 wasnt involved. We'd sometimes use Akai S 900, 950, or S1000's too. typical rap mic was a U87. occasionally we'd use U67's or U47's, but the 87 was the main go to mic of the time in most studios. C12's rarely.

there ya go.
Old 4th September 2008
  #29
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YOu speak the truth Ken....the good old days.....lets not forget the good old Lynx that we used to lock them puppies up.....the good old days of splicing....

-Ariel-
Old 4th September 2008
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
usually an MPC 60 or SP1200 patched directly into SSL E series mic pre's, or in the other studios, whatever they had, D&D had a Harrison, old Neve's were around, but alot of E series SSL's. occasionally into line inputs but i always brought them into mic pre's. thru the large fader, maybe some EQ and compression to tape, maybe not. Analog 2 inch tape running at 30 ips. no noise reduction.

mixes would be a very similar situation, a whole lot of mixing on SSL E Series and then G Series boards from 2 inch tape mixed to half inch tape for a mixdown medium, with backups to DAT.

some people used a mountain of outboard, guys like Troy Hightower used very little outboard. Nearfields were almost always NS-10's and alot of the hip hop guys also liked Tannoy DMT 12's to suppliment. Mains were usually Tannoy DMT 215's or Urie 813's. rarely ever saw subwoofers in studios. Genelec nearfields were kinda popular with some freelancers.

most of the reverbs used back then would be Lexicon 224, 480L, PCM 70's and PCM 60's. sometimes Yamaha Rev 5's and Rev 7's. AMS Reverbs. real plates. almost every room had either Lex PCM 41's or PCM 42's. alot of Pultec's, API, Neve, Lang outboard EQ's in alot of rooms.

almost always a turntable or two in the room to sample from or scratch on. everything locked up using SMPTE. tape machines locked together with SMPTE and SMPTE fed to the MPC 60 locked that, and the MPC would spit midi out to the keyboards if you were using any of those.

I almost never engineered a hip hop session where an MPC or SP1200 wasnt involved. We'd sometimes use Akai S 900, 950, or S1000's too. typical rap mic was a U87. occasionally we'd use U67's or U47's, but the 87 was the main go to mic of the time in most studios. C12's rarely.

there ya go.
Ken, I luv you!! thats exactly what I want to know!

Thanks to all the other guys, that posted! especially tonyscarbones!!

I want to hear more about the old days! Its very interesting for me, that these "two worlds" collide.. one one site the professionel engineer with his knowledge and experience and than the "kid from the block" with his sampler and without that background background.

awesome post, ken! thank you!!
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