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Mixes without basslines? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 13th August 2008
  #61
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phillysoulman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
Producers typically get a few points (which, in case you weren't aware, come out of the artist's income) because they handle everything from hiring sidemen, studios, and engineers, to budgeting EVERY aspect of the record (including minutae such as catering and lunches), in addition to working dozens of hours before hitting the studio to do preproduction tightening lyrics, performances and arrangements, honing performances in the studio, and building overdubs and arrangements into palpable songs before acting as liaison between the mix engineer and mastering engineer in the final steps of the making of the record.

And you wanna give the mix engineer a cut because he pressed a mute button or doubled a chorus?

I think that's a bit unreasonable. I realize it's not uncommon for "celebrity mixers" to get a point or two on mixes, but unless you're at that level, you're being unrealistic.

Also, you gotta be careful when accepting points as a mix engineer (or producer, for that matter). It's often a negotiation strategy to get you to accept less than your usual rate; they say they'll pay you half your mix rate but give you a point. That's great if the song is a smash hit, but in most cases, it won't be, and you won't see an extra dime (remember you don't start getting paid on your points till the record has recouped).
I often wonder just how many beatmakers who call themselves "producers" actually have the KNOWHOW and what it takes to be a producer in the true sense of the word.
Do they know how to go about doing all of the things which you mention above?
Imho, a real producer worth their weight in gold should be able to handle ALL of these aspects..and more in order to qualify earning that title.
It aint just about programming a two bar loop.
Old 13th August 2008
  #62
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysoulman View Post
I often wonder just how many beatmakers who call themselves "producers" actually have the KNOWHOW and what it takes to be a producer in the true sense of the word.
Do they know how to go about doing all of the things which you mention above?
Imho, a real producer worth their weight in gold should be able to handle ALL of these aspects..and more in order to qualify earning that title.
It aint just about programming a two bar loop.
thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup
Old 13th August 2008
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysoulman View Post
I often wonder just how many beatmakers who call themselves "producers" actually have the KNOWHOW and what it takes to be a producer in the true sense of the word.
Do they know how to go about doing all of the things which you mention above?
Imho, a real producer worth their weight in gold should be able to handle ALL of these aspects..and more in order to qualify earning that title.
It aint just about programming a two bar loop.

Its kinda funny (& sad at the same time) that so many folks are clueless when I ask if they are registered as a writer with one of the performing rights organizations. most say "I didnt write the lyrics, I did the beat...I'm the producer"
Old 13th August 2008
  #64
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ryst's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto
Producers typically get a few points (which, in case you weren't aware, come out of the artist's income) because they handle everything from hiring sidemen, studios, and engineers, to budgeting EVERY aspect of the record (including minutae such as catering and lunches), in addition to working dozens of hours before hitting the studio to do preproduction tightening lyrics, performances and arrangements, honing performances in the studio, and building overdubs and arrangements into palpable songs before acting as liaison between the mix engineer and mastering engineer in the final steps of the making of the record.
Most "pro-duce-ahs" would **** their pants if they read this. heh

Quote:
I often wonder just how many beatmakers who call themselves "producers" actually have the KNOWHOW and what it takes to be a producer in the true sense of the word.
Do they know how to go about doing all of the things which you mention above?
Imho, a real producer worth their weight in gold should be able to handle ALL of these aspects..and more in order to qualify earning that title.
It aint just about programming a two bar loop.
AMEN!!!!!!

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Old 13th August 2008
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryst View Post
Most "pro-duce-ahs" would **** their pants if they read this. heh



AMEN!!!!!!

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Ill supply the toilet paper!!
Old 13th August 2008
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic View Post
Its kinda funny (& sad at the saem time) that so many folks are clueless when I ask if they are registered as a writer with one of the performing rights organizations. most say "I didnt write the lyrics, I did the beat...I'm the producer"
Ive had some bozos who said things like.."he write the words and I write the lyrics!!"
and most dont know what publishing is except that its something that "you 'posed to get"
Old 13th August 2008
  #67
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Nahuel's Avatar
 

It's funny cause I've been recording/helping/coaching/ co writing with rappers for mo than 10 years now... but I still consider myself as a beatmaker... cause it's a lot mo cool, ha ha.dfegad
Old 13th August 2008
  #68
I think everybody who wants to become a producer should really consider where those points they think they deserve come from: out of the ARTISTS' pockets.

If you're too ignorant to understand the significance of that, you have no business being paid to work on someone's art.

That's my take on it, at least.
Old 13th August 2008
  #69
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Just because someone expresses a different point of view doesn't mean he falls in some sort of stereotype of the clueless beatmaker.

Anyways, pushing a few buttons on my instrument can make a whole "beat" ( ah ah ah I see you guys coming, I am no beatmaker/producah, ok? ) ... so should I get paid as a hired gun keyboardist or should I get some extra benefits if I contribute extensively to the arrangement of the song?

I am not an engineer but if you bring arrangement and concept ideas to the table doesn't this make you more than just the engineer?
After all, what do I care, my mixing skills are so limited that I wont ever be in this position anyways!
Old 13th August 2008
  #70
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phillysoulman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
I think everybody who wants to become a producer should really consider where those points they think they deserve come from: out of the ARTISTS' pockets.

If you're too ignorant to understand the significance of that, you have no business being paid to work on someone's art.

That's my take on it, at least.
So true..so true!!!
Getting paid for bullcrap...at best.

Any true producer worth his weight in gold should be hands on in every aspect of the fine art of record production.

Any bozo can "make a beat"..but very few have the chops to be a producer.
Old 14th August 2008
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysoulman View Post
So true..so true!!!
Getting paid for bullcrap...at best.

Any true producer worth his weight in gold should be hands on in every aspect of the fine art of record production.

Any bozo can "make a beat"..but very few have the chops to be a producer.
Why do you guys always get your panties in bunch over the use of the word producer? Only on GS have I seen people offended by some kid with fruity loops calling himself a producer. Why the attitude? In the current state of hip-hop and r&b I see alot of engineers wearing the "producer" hat should they start asking for thier cut?
This aint nothing new..... this generation of new cats didn't start the trend of cats calling beat makers producers the games been this way since the 80's. The title "producer" has been bought and sold for longer than that. This game is no worse or better than it has ever been.
Old 14th August 2008
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filterayok View Post
i think the reason everyones turning it into a mix philosophy this is that your STARTING with the assumption that something is INCORRECT or a "PROBLEM" with the track and asking for ways people 'FIX' them, which is sending out a red flag to a lot of people. You as the engineer are really in no place to come to that conclusion..I've seen engineers that take that position, that its THEIR job to FIX the producers mistakes, and show them the way, and those guys are THE WORST to work with... They start changing things without the inherited responsibility of the producer, which is that thousands of dollars are on the line. I think its best to assume the producer thaught/re-thaught/analyzed and re-analyzed every sound in the track, and to act accordingly.
HOWEVER there ARE a select few engineers who are producers at heart who can truly add to the song through production techniques, and if you are one of them, then go for it!thumbsup
If you trust YOURSELF enough, then hell, you can start adding parts, adding sounds, changing sounds and if it TRULY sounds BETTER, i think any producer will say WOW GREAT!! But you better make SURE it sounds better cuz if he hears that you went and changed sounds and the song doesnt sound better for it, hes never gonna work with you again...It comes down to a risk based on how much you think you know how to make something sound BETTER, and since 'better' is subjective, your probably better off sticking to eq's and compressors and reverbs to add what you need.
You can always depend on this man for "REAL WORLD PRO ANSWERS"!!!thumbsup
Old 14th August 2008
  #73
Quote:
Originally Posted by EKG Productions View Post
Why do you guys always get your panties in bunch over the use of the word producer? Only on GS have I seen people offended by some kid with fruity loops calling himself a producer. Why the attitude? In the current state of hip-hop and r&b I see alot of engineers wearing the "producer" hat should they start asking for thier cut?
This aint nothing new..... this generation of new cats didn't start the trend of cats calling beat makers producers the games been this way since the 80's. The title "producer" has been bought and sold for longer than that. This game is no worse or better than it has ever been.
The issue at hand isn't the definition of the word "producer", which, by anyone's standard, is very broad.

The issue is about people feeling entitled to a cut of an artist's record sales when they've done next to nothing to earn it.
Old 14th August 2008
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EKG Productions View Post
You can always depend on this man for "REAL WORLD PRO ANSWERS"!!!thumbsup
haha thanx dude
Old 14th August 2008
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
The issue at hand isn't the definition of the word "producer", which, by anyone's standard, is very broad.

The issue is about people feeling entitled to a cut of an artist's record sales when they've done next to nothing to earn it.

So what you are saying is a "beat maker" shouldn't be entitled to a cut of an artist record sales? Hell if thats the case if I were a "beat maker" I would call myself a producer too. Then I could get in on the cash if thats all it takes...lol
Old 14th August 2008
  #76
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Switchcraft's Avatar
 

Every producer and engineer I work with always has input, both ways. Open communication lines about adding or subtracting to the arrangement is part of the engineer/compose/arranger dynamic or collaborative process.

I always see the relationship as a collaboration, however, the engineer has to collaborate about the arrangement from a sonic stance.

If there is a hole in the sonic character of a song that cannot be filled by studio toys, arrangement needs to change and it is usually the (*experienced) engineer who first notices.

I have tracked and retracked synths, basses and all sorts of parts for weeks on end until the correct sonic arrangement/tone balance is achieved.

Of course, arrangement should be fixed before the toys come to play, but not all producers have a proper sense of arrangement and the first time these issues are noticed is when an engineers keen ears start molding the sonics.
This happens mostly from producers with crap listening environments or headphones.

Speak up!

you could always fill the whole that you hear with whatever sound you see fit and then just deactivate and hide that track in PT or just mute and hide it in Logic.

give it a pass by the producer for a comment on down time.

if you impress him with your ears and additions he will be back for his next project.

My experience is that most people arrangements are too deep. I often have to do a lot of muting and people end up thanking me for it.
\I feel your pain. some cats are more edge about their work than others.

I found that everybody wants their **** betta though!
Old 14th August 2008
  #77
Quote:
Originally Posted by EKG Productions View Post
So what you are saying is a "beat maker" shouldn't be entitled to a cut of an artist record sales? Hell if thats the case if I were a "beat maker" I would call myself a producer too. Then I could get in on the cash if thats all it takes...lol
I'm saying that ANYONE who isn't prepared to put in the WORK to earn a percentage should accept the (often generous) fees they'll receive for their work and move on (whether you're a beatmaker, engineer, or mixer).

There are only so many fractions you can divide an artist's sales into, and not everybody deserves a piece. Sell your beat off for $10k or whatever, quit bitching, and get grinding on the next project. You'll get your point when you earn it.

Maybe folks are confusing points with publishing. Beatmakers absolutely deserve a cut of the publishing. But that's an entirely different ball game. For those that don't understand the distinction, a bit of research is in order.

And to be clear, NO!!! a beatmaker is ABSOLUTELY NOT entitled to a cut of an artist's record sales in the form of points (again, they deserve a cut of the publishing, which is not the same). The artist/label pays a fee to buy the track from the beatmaker for exactly that reason.

If you're a beatmaker and unaware of the difference, you're gonna get screwed. Because you actually stand to make more from publishing (by a lot!!) than you do from points.
Old 14th August 2008
  #78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchcraft View Post
Every producer and engineer I work with always has input, both ways. Open communication lines about adding or subtracting to the arrangement is part of the engineer/compose/arranger dynamic or collaborative process.

I always see the relationship as a collaboration, however, the engineer has to collaborate about the arrangement from a sonic stance.

If there is a hole in the sonic character of a song that cannot be filled by studio toys, arrangement needs to change and it is usually the (*experienced) engineer who first notices.

I have tracked and retracked synths, basses and all sorts of parts for weeks on end until the correct sonic arrangement/tone balance is achieved.

Of course, arrangement should be fixed before the toys come to play, but not all producers have a proper sense of arrangement and the first time these issues are noticed is when an engineers keen ears start molding the sonics.
This happens mostly from producers with crap listening environments or headphones.

Speak up!

you could always fill the whole that you hear with whatever sound you see fit and then just deactivate and hide that track in PT or just mute and hide it in Logic.

give it a pass by the producer for a comment on down time.

if you impress him with your ears and additions he will be back for his next project.

My experience is that most people arrangements are too deep. I often have to do a lot of muting and people end up thanking me for it.
\I feel your pain. some cats are more edge about their work than others.

I found that everybody wants their **** betta though!
Great post.
Old 14th August 2008
  #79
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Switchcraft's Avatar
 

yeah I bet that track was produced in head phones. I have some beyerdynamics and they make every kik drum sound like an earthquake and every snare sound like a phone book hitting the ground. Why would I need an arrangement when I can vibe out to that in my cans all night.

Play the track for him on some aratones, avantones or Fostex 6301bs and see how he feels about the bass line hole. those will make it sound too sparse pretty quick.

Im not dissing your track, I am sure it is dope, but I have fell prey to the 'bad listening environment' (i.e. headphones) arrangement issues many times.

If this kik is not an 808, you may want to key a sine wave to the kik drum with a gate. Add some distortion to that for some harmonic content. However, that probably wont do much with your 100-200hz issue. Sounds like you have enough low frequency content going on as it is, but that is a good way to add a bassline, without adding a bassline..
Old 14th August 2008
  #80
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phillysoulman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EKG Productions View Post
So what you are saying is a "beat maker" shouldn't be entitled to a cut of an artist record sales? Hell if thats the case if I were a "beat maker" I would call myself a producer too. Then I could get in on the cash if thats all it takes...lol
Imho, by todays "standards" the beatmaker is in essence a "co writer" of the composition,just as the melody writer is/was.

So if a lyric writer writes to a beat,then they should share in the songwriting 50-50 and NOT the production.
So , say if the song earns 100,000 dollars,they would get fifty thousand dollarrs a piece.
But of course, from what Ive witnessed,rap and hip hop folks arew some of the GREEDIEST and argumentative on the planet.
Old 14th August 2008
  #81
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
I'm saying that ANYONE who isn't prepared to put in the WORK to earn a percentage should accept the (often generous) fees they'll receive for their work and move on (whether you're a beatmaker, engineer, or mixer).

There are only so many fractions you can divide an artist's sales into, and not everybody deserves a piece. Sell your beat off for $10k or whatever, quit bitching, and get grinding on the next project. You'll get your point when you earn it.

Maybe folks are confusing points with publishing. Beatmakers absolutely deserve a cut of the publishing. But that's an entirely different ball game. For those that don't understand the distinction, a bit of research is in order.

And to be clear, NO!!! a beatmaker is ABSOLUTELY NOT entitled to a cut of an artist's record sales in the form of points (again, they deserve a cut of the publishing, which is not the same). The artist/label pays a fee to buy the track from the beatmaker for exactly that reason.

If you're a beatmaker and unaware of the difference, you're gonna get screwed. Because you actually stand to make more from publishing (by a lot!!) than you do from points.
Sooooo. If a "beat maker" named Dark Child teams up with a "song writer" named Sean Garrett and the end result is Ludas new single feat. Chris Brown, Rodney Jerkins nor Sean Garrett deserve any points on Ludas album? I know they both charged substantially more than 10 stacks.
Old 14th August 2008
  #82
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phillysoulman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
I'm saying that ANYONE who isn't prepared to put in the WORK to earn a percentage should accept the (often generous) fees they'll receive for their work and move on (whether you're a beatmaker, engineer, or mixer).

There are only so many fractions you can divide an artist's sales into, and not everybody deserves a piece. Sell your beat off for $10k or whatever, quit bitching, and get grinding on the next project. You'll get your point when you earn it.

Maybe folks are confusing points with publishing. Beatmakers absolutely deserve a cut of the publishing. But that's an entirely different ball game. For those that don't understand the distinction, a bit of research is in order.

And to be clear, NO!!! a beatmaker is ABSOLUTELY NOT entitled to a cut of an artist's record sales in the form of points (again, they deserve a cut of the publishing, which is not the same). The artist/label pays a fee to buy the track from the beatmaker for exactly that reason.

If you're a beatmaker and unaware of the difference, you're gonna get screwed. Because you actually stand to make more from publishing (by a lot!!) than you do from points.
Its such a damn shame that most of them just dont get it.
And you know what??
If I come off harsh, then so be it.
They'll learn..and hopefully before its too late.
Old 14th August 2008
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysoulman View Post
But of course, from what Ive witnessed,rap and hip hop folks arew some of the GREEDIEST and argumentative on the planet.
Now thats some real talk man!..
Old 14th August 2008
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EKG Productions View Post
Sooooo. If a "beat maker" named Dark Child teams up with a "song writer" named Sean Garrett and the end result is Ludas new single feat. Chris Brown, Rodney Jerkins nor Sean Garrett deserve any points on Ludas album? I know they both charged substantially more than 10 stacks.
In Rodneys case,hes also a producer eg..he is more hands on from what Ive seen, and not just a beatmaker.
Sean is a wordsmith and deserves half of the pub/writers royalty.
Old 14th August 2008
  #85
Quote:
Originally Posted by EKG Productions View Post
Sooooo. If a "beat maker" named Dark Child teams up with a "song writer" named Sean Garrett and the end result is Ludas new single feat. Chris Brown, Rodney Jerkins nor Sean Garrett deserve any points on Ludas album? I know they both charged substantially more than 10 stacks.
I think you're missing my point. Songwriting/publishing/whatever-you-wanna-call-it is not the same thing as points. That's all I'm getting at. Maybe Dark Child and Mr. Garrett both got points, but it'd be more likely that they got publishing. Of course, I have no way of knowing. But I do know that splitting points up on a per-song basis for an entire record is a VERY sticky and complicated business, and if it were done for every dude who provided a beat on a record, plus every mix engineer and producer, there wouldn't be any money left to pay the artist. Do you think a fella as savvy as Luda would let that happen...?

Anyway, I don't know any of the details of that deal, so I really have no business speculating on it. You probably don't either, so specific examples like that (which would be the exception, not the rule) don't really prove anyone's point.
Old 14th August 2008
  #86
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysoulman View Post
In Rodneys case,hes also a producer eg..he is more hands on from what Ive seen, and not just a beatmaker.
Sean is a wordsmith and deserves half of the pub/writers royalty.
This is what I'm figuring, as well...
Old 14th August 2008
  #87
Gear Addict
 

Believe it or not the track went down just the opposite. Garrett did the production RJ made the track. I'm not privy to the terms of the deal but Garrett is a hell of a producer in the classic term. He's a control freak no matter who the beat maker is big or small. I was just playing devils advocate for a sec. I understand the point you guys are making.
Old 14th August 2008
  #88
Quote:
Originally Posted by EKG Productions View Post
Believe it or not the track went down just the opposite. Garrett did the production RJ made the track. I'm not privy to the terms of the deal but Garrett is a hell of a producer in the classic term. He's a control freak no matter who the beat maker is big or small. I was just playing devils advocate for a sec. I understand the point you guys are making.
Believe you me, I'm a big fan of the devil's advocate roleheh, just remember that there are people who DON'T understand these points we're all getting at and your posts could actually perpetuate the very myths I'm sure you're just as keen as us on squashing.
Old 14th August 2008
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
Believe you me, I'm a big fan of the devil's advocate roleheh, just remember that there are people who DON'T understand these points we're all getting at and your posts could actually perpetuate the very myths I'm sure you're just as keen as us on squashing.

One thing I will say though is that everyones situation is different. Get what you can get. Weather you deserve it or not is in the hands of the person with the check book. As always be SMART!
Old 14th August 2008
  #90
Quote:
Originally Posted by EKG Productions View Post
One thing I will say though is that everyones situation is different. Get what you can get. Weather you deserve it or not is in the hands of the person with the check book. As always be SMART!
Get what you can get, but do so with integrity.

THAT'S what I'm saying.
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