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MPC ?? (Hey it's high end if you do hip hop) Drum Machines & Samplers
Old 16th December 2002
  #1
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MPC ?? (Hey it's high end if you do hip hop)

Does anyone notice a drift when synced to ptools via midi clocks
I mean drifts in succesive passes to tape.

I was over on the DUC and one guy complained alot about it. I ask because I'm considering buying a high quality stereo converter set and dropping 2 tracks at a time to tape. Am I making a mixtake not droppng several at once?

If there is a drift is it bad enough to have to record a stereo pass from the machine and then nudge the separate tracks till they line up??

Anyone?
Old 16th December 2002
  #2
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That's the exact reason that I asked you if the goal of your purchase of the AD16( on your 1622 post) was to reduce the number of passes you need for midi dumps. When you are doing highly syncopated stuff like Hip Hop, it is vital that midi timing is perrfect. Especially when working with the MPC. Doing 2 channel passes to tape while hoping to keep the same groove you got out of the MPC is going to be a challenge, I don't care how much nudging you do or what sync device you use. In effect, what your are doing is defeating the purpose of the MPC itself. The MPC is know for its powerful sequencing abilities and its "groove factor". When you start disecting your sequence in 2 channel pieces and dumping to tape, you're going to find that some of what you sequenced is lost, in terms of feel. There is going to be some delay, no bones about it no matter how you sync the two together. Sure you can fix this by nudging, but that was really a pain for me and took me away from my creativity. Nor was I ever able to truly recreate the feel that I got on the MPC. For other kinds of music, this delay is not really an issue since most sequence-less work with live instruments is not really about exactness. .

To make a long story short, what I would do is go ahead and get the AD16 and do all of the drum tracks(kick, snare, hh, shaker, samples hits. etc) on 1 pass and print that to tape to make sure that you capture the original feelof the MPC. Then you can overdub the other stuff(synths, keys, guitars) and nudge where you need to. The most important element as you know is getting the beat tight.
Old 16th December 2002
  #3
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You may call me crazy for this, but I got a much better groove out of my old Roland R8 back in the day than any other machine. (It sounded like **** ) but at least It could groove. I'm surprised they never got with Linn and made that into a sampling machine. probably cause Akai already has the market

I remember that post of yours. That was when I was asking about importing the sounds into SSC. My theory was that if sample cell would keep all of the delays constant then droping from there would have been easier. And the sequence and groove would still be coming out of the MPC. But you're right. (plus I'd miss out on the MP filters). The MP mainly quantizes a little bit different from other machines that's where the groove comes from

HELL I USED TO LIKE CUBASE ON ATARI. WHAT DO I KNOW
Old 16th December 2002
  #4
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Don't sleep on the R8. Many cats, especially in Hip Hop still use it religiously, just in a different way. The 808 samples it has are phatter than any I've heard. Alot of 808's (kicks, hh's and snare) you hear on a lot of stuff out there has come from the legendary R8, but just being triggered by the MP.

You might want to pull that one out of the closet and peep it again.
Old 16th December 2002
  #5
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Na, I got midi on my 808

But honestly I've sampled it in Soft sample Cell and it sounds wayyy better than the R8. (24 bits make a difference)
Old 18th December 2002
  #6
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This Sample Cell thing has really sparked my interest. I also notice that digi isn't going to support it in HD. I wonder why? Do you notice a difference in sound quality over the MP? Do you have the the TDM version that allows you direct inputs into PT?
Old 19th December 2002
  #7
jho
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The software version Soft Sample Cell is what is now supported in HD.
Old 1st August 2005
  #8
Welcome to August 2005!
Old 2nd August 2005
  #9
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hey well i'd like to know if anybody has actually tried this and checked it out scientifically...

in other words, record the mpc 2 at a time, then record it all 8, and check and see how it lines up...

i'm getting ready to bounce a song right now... when i track it, i'll use the mpc as the master clock... if i flip it back around and play the newly recorded audio w. the mpc, they should phase cancel, more or less...

are you guys saying you've tried it and it doesn't work?
Old 2nd August 2005
  #10
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I´we had this problem exactly, I sugest u try with a rimshot sound or similarly
record it an play back.

I have found out that old recordings that I have made of the MPC2000 as master
the first bar is untight after that it stabalize, you will notice if you try to loop the first bar on the daw.

Also if you record in loopmode (for some reason) that is a major risk of loosing sync.

Currently I´m working alot with the sp 1200 and would like to sync keyboards and
audio parts to it (just to have something to program the drums around) but this
is impossible to get to work, I´m thinking about getting an atari for this as it never have let me down on sync, it´s possible to find them for almost nothing nowdays..
Old 2nd August 2005
  #11
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Pro Tools 5.1 and 6.2 seem to slip a few samples of MIDI time-code sync. when it gos into record so it may well slip MIDI sync as well. I don't know about later versions.

There's a lot to be said for recording everything at once. One thing you could do is record everything in a mix and then conform the individual elements. Not exactly fast but precise. A lot of people don't realize how accurate timing needs to be in order to NOT sound mechanical.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #12
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik
I´we had this problem exactly, I sugest u try with a rimshot sound or similarly
record it an play back.

I have found out that old recordings that I have made of the MPC2000 as master
the first bar is untight after that it stabalize, you will notice if you try to loop the first bar on the daw.

Also if you record in loopmode (for some reason) that is a major risk of loosing sync.

Currently I´m working alot with the sp 1200 and would like to sync keyboards and
audio parts to it (just to have something to program the drums around) but this
is impossible to get to work, I´m thinking about getting an atari for this as it never have let me down on sync, it´s possible to find them for almost nothing nowdays..
right, well i always put a blank measure or two before the actual sequence gets started.

are u saying you noticed drift after the first measures?
Old 2nd August 2005
  #13
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No it wasn´t any drift I think, but the space between the drums in the first bar
seemed to be closer, as if the mpc neded one bar to stabilize.

It´s no harm done really as i can edit this stuff but it can be good to know.

I dont know if this has to do with the mpc or the sync..

I mentioned it in the same post as it might intrest anybody who are working in a similar way, it wasnt anything I expected for sure.


But as far as drift, My experince tells me that sync is not tight enough to do overdubs from one sequenser to a daw. It´s´not really drift either it´s very random.

I would say that the sync might be stable enough to record the drums on top of
keys in one pass.


As far as the science, just try 8 tracks of rimshots in 8 separate takes for yourself and see if it work´s..
Old 2nd August 2005
  #14
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audioez's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson
There's a lot to be said for recording everything at once.
Bob you couldn't have said it better!!! words to live by for any engineer
Old 2nd August 2005
  #15
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audioez's Avatar
 

Thing to remeber when trying to achieve referenced sync.....Their needs to be a common among all playback devices; video burst or word clock...The MPC2000(which is the most common among MPC) has no facility for video or word clock. Hence the reason this thread started, and I'm getting a headache just thinking about it.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #16
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Ok, but in protools doesn´t it make a difference if the audio is tickbased as opposed to samplebased, I´m thinking like this, the samplerateclock does it´s own thing and the app just makes shure that the regions start on the tick that´s graphically represented. I´m not shure though..

How does all this relate to midiclock however? the sp 1200 that i have sends no
timecode, but it´s still a problem (depending on the application) the most stable
DAW for this in my setup has been ableton live & reason, although those are a bit peculiar in their own right, I would like protools or logic to be able to handle it..

What can be the drawbacks of recording everything at once, if there´s no sync involwed and everything is sequensed?
Old 2nd August 2005
  #17
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MPC3000 used to be my mian tool form 96-jan 2005. that point i became a gigsampler and reason convert and hav't looked back yet. Use same samples i built in mpc and keep it movin. Alot of producers are moving to those tools becuase of the portability and speed. On the road a laptop w/ a few ext harddrives, a usb keyboard, and an mbox and i'm good.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #18
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I don´t think it´s fair to compair MPC 3000 and reason, to me it´s two different things entirely.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik
I don´t think it´s fair to compair MPC 3000 and reason, to me it´s two different things entirely.
i run my pc w/ gigasampler/reason thru the same neve preamps into protools as I did my mpc w/ the same drum sounds as i did my mpc. after 9 years of mpc it is an upgraded style of working for many of us producers who travel alot.

timbaland been using gigasampler for quite some time now as well.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #20
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I think it´s two different way of working, there´s´still lots of hardware boxes being made and you can buy what you prefeer.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #21
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The trick or me and syncing to pro tools, with my mpc or any keyboard for that matter is to put it in sync mode, press rewind and then press play, (machine will say waitng for midi) then record. Every time Im going to the next take, I repeat the process.
No problems here.


Also I make sure my buffers are as low as they will possibly go.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik


But as far as drift, My experince tells me that sync is not tight enough to do overdubs from one sequenser to a daw. It´s´not really drift either it´s very random.
that would be the worst...

but, what midi interface/sequencer do you use? i wonder if this could be a factor?
Old 3rd August 2005
  #23
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grouphome's Avatar
i've got an smpte card in my mpc
i use that when tracking
i've got the smpte output going to my midiinterface and my Rosendahl nanosync
i've got it setup so the smtpe coming in is the reference of the wordclock signal
my midi interface is converting the smpte to mtc
in protools i set the transport to mmc (after ive put the tracks in record, sync on and pushed the record button) and set the mpc so it receives mmc commands and spitts out smtpe signal
hit space/start in protools
never had drifting problems
Old 3rd August 2005
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
that would be the worst...

but, what midi interface/sequencer do you use? i wonder if this could be a factor?

Keep in mind that I don´t´use the MPC, I used to have one but sold it when the display broke. I´m using the sp1200, the internal sequenser is kinda loose + it only generates midi clock, but from what I understand midiclock suppose to be more stable than mtc (more like smpte in a midicable)

My midi interface is an midisport 2x2 and the sequenser logic 7 since protools wont let me sync with midi clock (I have to check out these midi intefaces with converters)

I´ve had experinced good sync with ableton live though thumbsup , maybe not good enough for drumoverdubs though.

I dont know if it could be a problem in general aswell if one for example slave the daw
to an external sequencer and later, after the recording is done, switch to the internal clock sorce in the daw to do more overdubs or what ever. If there is a difference in how the to sequencers interpret (say 90 BPM) then there might be gaps at edit point
etc.

Thinking about it I would sugest that the most stable transfer (at least timingwise) would be to record all outputs at the same time without sync for a long time preferably the length of the song, edit the startpoint and end point of the whole pass and do the "identify beat" comand in pro tools..
Old 3rd August 2005
  #25
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Particular MIDI interfaces and serial port chips have a fixed latency that you need to offset in order to get MIDI time code frame roll-overs right on the sample.

Pro Tools, unlike every other application I've used for this, moves around when it goes into record. It doesn't drift but each track will be randomly offset by 5 or 6 samples. This is with a running start. The frustrating thing is that you can use the very same hardware with, for example, Sound Designer-II and it will be spot on the money every single time.

I haven't been following this stuff closely for around 10 years but I've never heard of anything MIDI-driven that people think sounds as rhythmically solid as a dedicated drum machine.
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