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man....i really need to get into live DAW Software
Old 22nd August 2007
  #1
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cynic one's Avatar
 

man....i really need to get into live

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what the fuuuuuuuuuuuck.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #2
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I've been telling you guys about this for years.
Live is THAT easy to operate and has a workflow that allows for (creative) spontaneity.
as you can see in these videos, pattern based sequencing is one of its strengths.thumbsup
Old 22nd August 2007
  #3
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i swear man as hard as i try to get into live i cant, its just like logic fits my needs man. I can just copy and past the clips as i needs.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #4
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Was that supposed to look like it's easy?

Go here, go there, go everywhere, then your where you need to be. I just push the asterisk button when I want to record.

I know that Live is a great program, but it's made for a part of my brain I can't access yet! Logic seems to be easier for me! Great video, very talented guy!
Old 22nd August 2007
  #5
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cynic one's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by illynoise View Post
Was that supposed to look like it's easy?

Go here, go there, go everywhere, then your where you need to be. I just push the asterisk button when I want to record.

I know that Live is a great program, but it's made for a part of my brain I can't access yet! Logic seems to be easier for me! Great video, very talented guy!
nah, but looks like he just has the pads mapped out just how he wants em. i was lookin for an overlay the whole time hahaha.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #6
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ryst's Avatar
 

I'm really suprised Live hasn't been embraced more by hip hop producers. I love it. i create all my hip hop tracks with Live and nothing else. You can do some really sick things with that program. Been a user since version 3! thumbsup
Old 22nd August 2007
  #7
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PettyCash's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynic View Post
nah, but looks like he just has the pads mapped out just how he wants em. i was lookin for an overlay the whole time hahaha.
I have tried twice to get into live. I actually still have it installed, and I always ponder about whether or not I should give it another try on many occassions...... but when I really take time to think about it, if Its not something I can easily get into, would it really benefit my work flow?
Old 22nd August 2007
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PettyCash View Post
...... but when I really take time to think about it, if Its not something I can easily get into, would it really benefit my work flow?
that's the same question people coming from cutting tape asked themselves before they turned to using DAWs.

and just because you can't get into it, doesn't mean it IS hard to learn.

just follow the tutorials. if you can't learn the (essential) basics in an hour or two........blame it on the user. heh
Old 23rd August 2007
  #9
jje
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Wow! I didn't know you could do this with a Kontrol...may have to pick one up now. I especially like the way the useable pads/buttons/knobs light up when you switch to that mode. Even if you're still struggling with what each does, at least you know which pads do something and which do nothing.

I had Live sitting on the hard drive for a while too and finally started getting into it. I haven't touched Sonar in about a month. Until learning it, I never realized that Live can do everything a regular DAW can plus a lot of things that they can't. Funny, I always assumed that you HAD to record everything as little loops until I got into it and realized you can just arm tracks and record like a normal DAW or you can record clips and edit them back and forth.

Definitely a program worth spending the time learning.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #10
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PettyCash's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
that's the same question people coming from cutting tape asked themselves before they turned to using DAWs.

and just because you can't get into it, doesn't mean it IS hard to learn.

just follow the tutorials. if you can't learn the (essential) basics in an hour or two........blame it on the user. heh
The difference between this situation, and guys coming up from cutting tape, is that they havent had long time exposure to using any type of DAWs, it was a completely new thing for them.

In this case, programs like Live, arent new things to me, as I have used just about every type of sequencer program you can think of, From Cool Edit Pro, to Cakewalk Home Studio and Sonar, to Cubase/Nuendo, Pro Tools and Logic Pro, and the list can go on for days....

Im always trying new programs and new things to expand how I work. Sometimes when I first come across a program, I will be turned off from using it on the first try, but I always come back and give it a few more tries, and see If the workflow of the program can be useful for what I do.

Ableton Live has been the first program that I have came across in which I cant find any insterest in using what so ever. Its not that I dont know how to use it, any one with as much experience as I have with computer based sequencers could run it effeciently without reading the manual.

What Im saying is that I dont find it to be useful in anyway compared to what I currently use, and what I have used in the past, despite the fact that I still have it install, and I have given it a try on more than one occassion.

It has eye candy appeal, but thats about it for my so far....
Old 23rd August 2007
  #11
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PettyCash's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jje View Post
Wow! I didn't know you could do this with a Kontrol...may have to pick one up now. I especially like the way the useable pads/buttons/knobs light up when you switch to that mode. Even if you're still struggling with what each does, at least you know which pads do something and which do nothing.

I had Live sitting on the hard drive for a while too and finally started getting into it. I haven't touched Sonar in about a month. Until learning it, I never realized that Live can do everything a regular DAW can plus a lot of things that they can't. Funny, I always assumed that you HAD to record everything as little loops until I got into it and realized you can just arm tracks and record like a normal DAW or you can record clips and edit them back and forth.

Definitely a program worth spending the time learning.
I still got mines installed, and thought about trying it again recently, I might go and do just that in a couple of days.

Recently for a mastering session, I gave Samplitude 8 a shot. I bought that program a year ago and installed it. I gave it a preliminary run through but never took the time to really put it in action and try it out, so it just sat on there and slipped my mind.

It actually turns out that I really digg that program. The GUI is really up my alley. Its a lot like taking Nuendo and giving you all the small but significant features that are still missing (like being able to shuffle the order of the inserts on each channel), which would just make your life a bit easier. The POW-R dithering that they included is a nice addition as well.

Right now im wondering how that program would hold up in one of my tracking and/or mixing sessions. Im doing my research on that, and if its worth while I will install it on the comp in the mixing room as well.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #12
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miet's Avatar
 

I just find Live so hungry with third party AU's...... It almost renders it unusable for my needs. (DP 1.8 G5 3gb)
Old 23rd August 2007
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PettyCash View Post
Ableton Live has been the first program that I have came across in which I cant find any insterest in using what so ever. Its not that I dont know how to use it, any one with as much experience as I have with computer based sequencers could run it effeciently without reading the manual.
that's a bold statement. I doubt you've been using Trackers or pattern-based sequencers in the 80s/90s.

why? because if you did, you would know what the Session View is good for and that Live is the only major sequencer offering this.
which of the hosts you used before can show a 16 bar loop, a 4 bar loop and 1 bar one-shot in one lane, represented in a vertical scene?

which DAW/sequencer you were using before had a vertical and a horizontal representation of the song/session?

this is not "eye candy".

I doubt you know a single non-linear, asynchronous, pattern-based environment. and you know why? because there is no other. thumbsup
Old 23rd August 2007
  #14
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I can make a beat twice that nice in the same amount of time with Reason. But than again I have been using Reason since 2000.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuehler View Post
I can make a beat twice that nice in the same amount of time with Reason. But than again I have been using Reason since 2000.
I'm a huge Reason fan too but you cant use your motif/fantom/roland/korg etc....racks using reason like you can with LIVE. And please dont go there how the refills for these modules sound the same cause I have the motif rack and two versions of the motif refills and no, they're not the same. IN MY OPINION that is. Some may think they are. I personally cant deal with the time it takes go from bank to bank on a refill than just a turn of the knob on the rack. That's just besides my issue with the sound difference.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #16
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ryst's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PettyCash View Post

In this case, programs like Live, arent new things to me, as I have used just about every type of sequencer program you can think of, From Cool Edit Pro, to Cakewalk Home Studio and Sonar, to Cubase/Nuendo, Pro Tools and Logic Pro, and the list can go on for days....
None of these programs mentioned are anywhere near Live's potential. I know everyone works differently but Live requires OTB thinking. And once you finally go..."Ahh, I get it!", then you can really do things with audio you never thought possible. Seriously. I would suggest this to anyone wanting to understand Live better: Download the demo and then buy the Computer Music Insider's Guide to Ableton Live. http://www.computermusic.co.uk/page/...der_s_guide_to

Go through every tutorial. Also the tutorials on Ableton's website.
http://www.ableton.com/pages/tips/home
http://www.ableton.com/movies

This is a great way to understand and learn Live's potential. I am still suprised it hasn't been adopted in the Hip Hop community yet. But that's ok because it still means it's a secret weapon for me. heh
Old 24th August 2007
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
that's a bold statement. I doubt you've been using Trackers or pattern-based sequencers in the 80s/90s.

why? because if you did, you would know what the Session View is good for and that Live is the only major sequencer offering this.
which of the hosts you used before can show a 16 bar loop, a 4 bar loop and 1 bar one-shot in one lane, represented in a vertical scene?

which DAW/sequencer you were using before had a vertical and a horizontal representation of the song/session?

this is not "eye candy".

I doubt you know a single non-linear, asynchronous, pattern-based environment. and you know why? because there is no other. thumbsup
Like I said before, its not about me not knowing, its about me not caring....

Other than that, I havent gotten into trying the program far enough to check out all the benefits of using Session View, so dont assume anything about what I may know from what I dont know, especially if I havent mentioned anything relating to that.
And when I mentioned "eye candy" I was talking about liking the appearance of the GUI.

You obviously have a lot more time on your hands to feel and speak so passionately about Live than I do, to the point where you feel like hassling me for not jumping on the Live bandwagon already as you have.

Notice I said that I still have yet to uninstall the program... meaning that I'm not dismissing what it is capable of doing for me, I just dont have time at the moment to sit down with it to see how it could fit into my workflow.

Are you Ableton Lives bitch or something? Are you being pimped?
Lighten up a lil "playa"....
Old 24th August 2007
  #18
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PettyCash's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuehler View Post
I can make a beat twice that nice in the same amount of time with Reason. But than again I have been using Reason since 2000.
Exactly, cause you spent a long enough time with that system and have your work flow worked out flawlessly around it. Live may or may not be something that you will find worth dabbling in....
Old 24th August 2007
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PettyCash View Post
Like I said before, its not about me not knowing, its about me not caring....

Other than that, I havent gotten into trying the program far enough to check out all the benefits of using Session View, so dont assume anything about what I may know from what I dont know, especially if I havent mentioned anything relating to that.
so what is it? you don't care or you don't know, because you haven't tried?
but you can use it without knowing it? (or for that matter, reading the manual and knowing what sets it apart from all the software you've used before?)

and what I pointed out was (being as friendly as I could be), that you are simply talking out of your ass.

it doesn't matter if I'm "just a user", someone working for them or a guy writing his own software - I bring in experience and knowledge, not an opinion based on assumptions and prejudices. thumbsup
Old 24th August 2007
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MERC476 View Post
And please dont go there how the refills for these modules sound the same cause I have the motif rack and two versions of the motif refills and no, they're not the same. IN MY OPINION that is. Some may think they are. I personally cant deal with the time it takes go from bank to bank on a refill than just a turn of the knob on the rack. That's just besides my issue with the sound difference.
**** NO! Reason sounds like **** man!!!

I export the midi and redo it all in PT and make it sound slicker.

I think most people making beats don't realize it is better to get your inpiration down and spend the time making it better later. Sometimes the inspiration comes from great sounding samples to be sure, I just think it is better to work out melodies and rhythms in a small way with crappy sounds and make it big later.

Get it out of your soul before your soul moves on to the next song!

Also, if it sounds good in Reason it is going to sound REALLY good in Pro Tools when I am done with it.

True this method won't give you instant gratification like the one above but I actually find that instant gratification is what kills songs. If I can rework them too fast it is a bad thing. You know what I mean?

I actually make 5 beats and I think it is 1 and I wonder why it sounds too complicated....

I could compose a sick beat on a gameboy and later work it out on Pro Tools...whatever.....For me it goes like this:

1. Hear mental beat, rhythm, melody

2. Compose, sketch, print ideas

3. Find samples, find intruments that fit

4. EQ, compress et cetera.

5. Master, bounce.

Of course I try and sample myself for everything so that also changes my flow. If I could just snip off records all day I could use a workflow like the one above but I try and play everything and make it sound like it is off vinyl.

Also, if you can't hear the full beat in your head before you begin than you haven't been doing this long enough.

Rarely does random ****ing around lead to anything good.

All this is just me.....maybe.

Sorry to hijack this thread!
Old 25th August 2007
  #21
ind
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Hey, can't watch the vids more then a few seconds cause I live in the woods dialup style. I am a nobody, for sure. I have been a nobody for awile though. I have been making music on computers since I first noticed you could. Started out with octamed, still could fire up amithlon and remember how to use it I'm sure. Then I jumped to the whole screamtracker/impulse/ft2/velvet studio/etc thing. Then I started using a program called buzz (awesome, unstable, free, hard to use). Then I messed with cubase for awile, went back to buzz. Worked in nuendo for awile back before it got as tech as it is these days, went back to buzz. Then I used live for a little. Hated it, went back to buzz. But I ended up jumping back to live every once and awile. Started out just doing mixes and things (mix tape style, I have never claimed to be a dj for a second). It grew on me.

This is where I am now. I am like 95% using live for making music. Sometimes I have to go somewhere else for something strange (pd/synthedit/mammut/spear) but I do most of my sequencing/editing in live.

Quick sidenote, anyone else ever check out spear?!? Its a bit tech but man, can anything else do this type of resynthesis? SPEAR Homepage

Anyway, what Live is to me is a very minimal sequencer. I can't speak about things I dont know about, like how everyone else works. But I just fly in live. I first thought I would be doing everything in the session view, seemed neat at first. At this point I feel like its a waste of time though, if you spend that much time setting up follow actions and all that, then you play it live and fire off scenes in realtime? Eh, to each thier own. I sit in arrangement view and use it alot like any other sequencer.

There are some things that feel a little strange in live, like doing lots of strange complex routing. A few other things. Its not the most cpu efficient sequencer out there. I cant get the auto delay compensation thing to work to the sample (its in like .00ms accuracy I think). To me the gui works well, lack of eye candy. Wish the little meters on the right of all the tracks were a little bigger and more functional.

I was going to try to stick up for Live I think, but I cant realy think of how or why I should. I like it alot, I use impulse even quite alot. Its a solid little 8 sample drum machine. If your bored you can stack like 4 on top of each other and use midi note filters to split a single midi track to controll them all. I dont use simpler too much but its pretty solid when I want to use a sample as a pad or something. It realy shines when you start cutting up audio though. I can cut up audio in live faster then I can anywhere else. The key is controll-j for me. I dont just mean cutting up a drum loop or something, I mean where you have just hundreds of edits in a measure.

I just feel good using live for hours and hours and hours at a time. No real reason. To each thier own and all. Just try it, the demo lets you do everything but save. I think my favorite part about it is there are lots of limits to it. No crazy special smart transpose, no crazy groove mapping. I would much rather drop the grid snap and go in and move drums by hand. I like a much more direct approach. Isn't that why people still swear by mpc's?

Oh:
I think most people making beats don't realize it is better to get your inpiration down and spend the time making it better later. Sometimes the inspiration comes from great sounding samples to be sure, I just think it is better to work out melodies and rhythms in a small way with crappy sounds and make it big later.

I think most people making beats seem to think the method they have spent years refining for themselves is what defines how they work, and forget all the time spent figuring out the workflow that works best is realy what made you what you are. The time spent screwing around and doing the wrong thing is why your learning. Whats better for you is better for you. Personaly, I'd rather work on a beat solid for hours. Very often I work left to right, no roughing out of anything. Do what works. If you dont know what works listen to what everyone else says and then disregard all of it. Figure it out yourself, I always thought that was the fun part.

What was my point?
Old 25th August 2007
  #22
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PettyCash's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
so what is it? you don't care or you don't know, because you haven't tried?
but you can use it without knowing it? (or for that matter, reading the manual and knowing what sets it apart from all the software you've used before?)

and what I pointed out was (being as friendly as I could be), that you are simply talking out of your ass.

it doesn't matter if I'm "just a user", someone working for them or a guy writing his own software - I bring in experience and knowledge, not an opinion based on assumptions and prejudices. thumbsup
You have taken the time to get into Live and see its potential, so you can spit experience and knowledge about it all you want. I cannot, and Im not even trying to do that, I stated my first opinion based on my first two initial looks into the software. I am not bashing the software, infact I mentioned thinking about taking some more time for learning how it could benefit me...... so get the hell up off my back.

How Is what I said talking out my ass? fuuck Talking out your ass means you are either faking facts, talking complete bull****, or making overstatements..
Quote:
PettyCash
I have tried twice to get into live. I actually still have it installed, and I always ponder about whether or not I should give it another try on many occassions...... but when I really take time to think about it, if Its not something I can easily get into, would it really benefit my work flow?
where is the faking of facts, bull****, or overstatements in that comment huh? Where is there a reason in that comment for you to even have said anything to me? You probably just wanted to make up for whatever balls you are lacking and boost your ego by trying to talk down to someone who doesnt know as much about Live as you do.
I dont take kindly to ppl trying to act like a smart ass with me when I did nothing to bring that onto myself. tutt
Quote:
just because you can't get into it, doesn't mean it IS hard to learn.

just follow the tutorials. if you can't learn the (essential) basics in an hour or two........blame it on the user. heh
I never said it was hard, I didnt even mention whether or not I went as far as to follow the tutorials, which I didnt, I only went into it twice just for an overview of how the GUI was, and how the layout of the GUI would be in easily allowing me to fit it in with how I am use to working.

That being said, You can go jerk off in your studio...heh

Imma try and say it for you one last time, so hopefully your thick skull can take it in. WHEN I CARE about learning how LIVE can fit into MY WORK FLOW, I WILL LEARN about all it can do and see about utilizing its strengths.

What the **** are you arguing with me about? If I want to use live, I will use the damn thing, if I dont want to use it, I just wont use it.....

Get a life and get out more, instead of trying to push facts and **** on ppl who didnt ask you anything in the first place....thumbsup
I didnt go through the **** I went through, to get where I am today, just so that some internet bitch can try to pick an argument with me over ****.

I dont have anything personally against you, but if you have a problem with what Im saying and you are going to continue bothering me about it, PM me and we can continue this outside this thread you are distrubing.
Old 29th August 2007
  #23
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daillman's Avatar
I gave it a try a couple of times and didn't like it maybe the interface just looks cheesy to me,but after reading some of these posts i think I'll give another try.
Old 29th August 2007
  #24
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i wonder if flaming pms are going back and forth. new headlines "internet beef in the rap + hip hop engineering & production forum ends in double homicide" for more cont. on page 131E.
Old 30th August 2007
  #25
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So, marcus...

So, Marcus you are the live genius around, and I 've checked your comments on live b4, so I am curious.
You can only do this kind of MIDI controlling with tha pad thing on Live? is that it? Because the padkontrol is a mere MIDI controller, but there he almost uses it as freaking mouse. So, WTF is that? Is that what it is? LIve acts as a HUGE VSTi? With inserted VSTi's and you can control the whole crap with MIDI?
I got to admit that I was never very geeky with the softwares I used, I could do all kinds of editing, recording, quantizing but never got to ddeep on automating stuff . Even I know I never did it, that seems too HARDCORE to me! The level on MIDI controlling. IS that one of the big LIVE catches ! or I am simply lazy... As I suspect? Do people do this king of controling with say, cubase or Logic? I never heard of it...
Old 30th August 2007
  #26
jje
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I'm not the Live expert, but I think I can answer a few of your questions.

After seeing the videos I looked into the guy who made them and what he was doing. It seems that what you see on the video is a combo of automapping (so when he opens an effect or instrument the knobs/pads automatically map to control the thing opened) as well as key command macros when something isn't open or when he pushes some sort of 'shift' or 'alt' type control on the pad controller.

So, in other words, he's already preprogrammed (using some other MIDI mapping program) that "Ctrl E - down three spaces (which makes a new menu) down five spaces (to create a new track or something) - enter" is the same as pushing pad#1 which controls MIDI CC# whatever. Sounds complicated, but he basically took the time to program all necessary keystrokes as single midi codes so he can maneuver without needing a keyboard as everything he needs to do (make new tracks, undo/redo, effects scrolling and choosing, vst choosing, etc.) are all a one or two button push.

In other words - he took a loooooong time in programming to make it do all those things.
Old 30th August 2007
  #27
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ryst's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fontenele View Post
So, Marcus you are the live genius around, and I 've checked your comments on live b4, so I am curious.
You can only do this kind of MIDI controlling with tha pad thing on Live? is that it? Because the padkontrol is a mere MIDI controller, but there he almost uses it as freaking mouse. So, WTF is that? Is that what it is? LIve acts as a HUGE VSTi? With inserted VSTi's and you can control the whole crap with MIDI?
I got to admit that I was never very geeky with the softwares I used, I could do all kinds of editing, recording, quantizing but never got to ddeep on automating stuff . Even I know I never did it, that seems too HARDCORE to me! The level on MIDI controlling. IS that one of the big LIVE catches ! or I am simply lazy... As I suspect? Do people do this king of controling with say, cubase or Logic? I never heard of it...
I'm not Marcus but I have used Live since version 3. Almost all of Live's parameters are midi assignable and controllable. You also can assign multiple parameters to one controller like a slider or knob. It can get pretty crazy if you want it to.

You cannot control other programs he way you can with Live. It was originally made for live performance but has grown basically into an instrument DAW. A DAW that you can literally play. If you can think of something cool to do, you can probably do it with Live.
Old 30th August 2007
  #28
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that's what I thought

Quote:
Originally Posted by jje View Post
I'm not the Live expert, but I think I can answer a few of your questions.

After seeing the videos I looked into the guy who made them and what he was doing. It seems that what you see on the video is a combo of automapping (so when he opens an effect or instrument the knobs/pads automatically map to control the thing opened) as well as key command macros when something isn't open or when he pushes some sort of 'shift' or 'alt' type control on the pad controller.

So, in other words, he's already preprogrammed (using some other MIDI mapping program) that "Ctrl E - down three spaces (which makes a new menu) down five spaces (to create a new track or something) - enter" is the same as pushing pad#1 which controls MIDI CC# whatever. Sounds complicated, but he basically took the time to program all necessary keystrokes as single midi codes so he can maneuver without needing a keyboard as everything he needs to do (make new tracks, undo/redo, effects scrolling and choosing, vst choosing, etc.) are all a one or two button push.

In other words - he took a loooooong time in programming to make it do all those things.

that's what I thought... Just wanted to make sure I was not whacking out ! It was a genius break then. I did not know that, I was already about to give it a try, so for sure I will try at some point. Nice !

Thank ryst and jje
Old 30th August 2007
  #29
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hey fontenele,

you can set up midi-to-key software to act as a keyboard or a string of keys/commands.

Live by itself has nice midi mapping features; to control it they way it was shown in the videos (or going beyond that), you need some 3rd party midi-to-key software.

what are the benefits of it? "hardware" guys often complain about not being able to use their DAWs intuitively, thus being forced to stare at a screen and use the mouse all the time.

by using your midi-controller as a "command station", you are way faster editing your sequences or recording takes.
and it works the same way as you'd be using a "hardware" module: you learn a couple of commands and play away. no need to jump back and forth between your modules/controllers and your workspace.

another benefit of such a setup in combination with Live is, that you can not only edit on the fly, you can also arrange your tracks live.
the session view (as was shown in the videos) is perfectly suited for such a workflow; Ableton Live is pretty unique in this respect.

there are other environments, like Reaktor or even Max/MSP, with endless possibilities and options; Live though, has almost no learning curve.
it's limited in its features, that's true - but when it comes to creating hip hop/house/sample-based music in general, that's not a negative thing at all.thumbsup
Old 1st September 2007
  #30
Lives for gear
wooooo i got the hang of live and let me say after you get round the menu's and stuff its actually pretty neat. So big thumbs thumbs up!

SoundClick song info: My 1st Ableton Live 6 Beat by DaRKitekt - Song info page with free MP3 music downloads
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