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Hip-hop production and cultural appropriation
Old 5 days ago
  #181
Quote:
Originally Posted by DomiBabi View Post

I’m going to sit my pink ass down, turn on my Elektron Octatrack, and sample the hell out of everything. I’ll find a riff I like, and find a way to use it without anyone ever knowing where it came from. Then I’m going to write lyrics that are the exact opposite of whatever the vocalist was spewing on about. When it’s all done, I’m going to make a fortune, never credit the original musician, and perform it at his Black daughter’s 18th birthday party. She will happen to be into white guys, love my style, and have my children. I’ll have beautiful mixed babies, and give them Chinese names just to piss you off. I’ll teach them to play Indian tabla and the banjo in my pointer sisters cover band.



...Brilliant ha ha

career goals right there bro

Quote:
Originally Posted by DomiBabi View Post

Listen man, music is love. If I can get some white washed kid in middle America to appreciate something different, that’s one step closer to the kid seeking out similar vibes. Every one of us here has built a music career off of the folks that came before. No one is immune to that, and I promise none of us would see eye to eye with many of the greats. Some of the greatest musicians I know are pretty ****ty people.
....i fully fully agree with you bro....


and yet at the same time i think there's a real value for us all as musicians to point to a very clear and important line between young musicians naturally mimicking the musical behaviour of their heroes (as a part of their natural musical growth )

and those artists and execs today who are still lifting forms of music and making millions while giving nothing back to the communities they take from


i am fully in support of sampling ...and aware that in truth everything is handed down musically ...inspiration becomes interpretation becomes (hopefully) original work.

and I can tell from your post though that you defo know all this......

so just to move along to my view of where we are at as an industry and a culture with contemporary music today...that troubles me.....and why I've got involved with this thread....


In the UK our two major vocal artists are caucasians performing music of black origin

Adele ...and Ed Sheeran.

Aretha Franklin/Marvin Gaye light IMO

...now as a musician i respect and love their artistry , especially ed sheerans robotic ability to churn out songs


...however i can tell you there are far far more talented british caribbean and british african artists consistently writing and performing music of black origin here in our major cities who do not get the support.


Every week theres an open mic night in great soul club here in London and honestly 80% of the musicians who get up and perform absolutely wipe the floor with big mainstream artists. Theres an exceptional abundant pool of talent in the culture here that just does not receive the support from the british music industry the way that straight out of talent school
artists (adele , amy winehouse ) get support.

its all very bouji, still

One of our greatest recent r and b artists of my time (Craig David) , at the same time that he was on the cover of Vibe magazine in the states , alongisde usher , diddy and Mary J......back home here in the UK he was the subject of derision and white comedian/blackface caricatures of him....which in later years he admitted trashed his self confidence and turned his carrier into a national joke.

that i found very sad......

....and not to even mention lynden david hall...who very few people outside of the culture here have probably ever heard of.


and looking "over the pond" in the US, I'm aware theres a long running argument in the culture as to how many execs in the hip-hop part of the music industry do not come from the community from whom their company is deriving huge profits.

Lyor Cohen of course is one of the main figures for criticism in this aspect.

Its long been the complaint of people like chuck d ...and spike lee...and more recently damon dash....that people like lyor cohen see the dollar signs available to them via the exploitation/monetisation of another communities culture than theirs...and engage with the talent they find, but with an agenda that creates real and negative consequences for the community .

Often when selecting which artists from the community they support and invest in....it is done with an agenda....only certain artists promoting a certain message that the executives are looking for gets promoted.

So as with lyor cohen (who of course now works at youtube and presumably would be involved in the bias reinforcing algorithms that selects what we all see on our YT feeds)....

...there is complaint that executives , like lyor, who do not come from the hip-hop community choose to promote only controversial/player player/street soldier artists as this will defo sell to the suburban/international audiences....

but the more broader representative of the "culture" artists (im thinking dead prez ) will not see the same support.

And to compound this lyor cohen as an example, draws these artists into exploitative deals like his 360 deal.....which essentially is just a money grab.....


....and all the community is left with , is a stereotype broadcasted misrepresentative message of their community spread across the states and internationally, that influences the image and view other communities build of them, simply from music videos....

put simply, suburban communities with little day to day experience of inner city communities are brainwashed into thinking all young males knocking about in the city are carrying and up to no good, the fear this breeds has a consequence which we are all witnessing blowing up all over the world in righteous protests now right?

Some blame the attitude of people like lyor for perpetuating this....and i can dig it.

i think its a fair criticism of people like lyor cohen to say that he has entered into the rich pool of talent of the hip-hop community (which of course is to say the fruit of the labour of the ingenious/inventive talented young people of the bronx in the late 70's/early 80's......)

from his own community.....

and as a business man has made millions from doing so.....which of course then moves into his community ..(via his own family wealth and spending etc )

but what do people like lyor return to the community.

?

They sell a skewed, mis representative image of a section of a community that simply mis informs a wider society as to the actual issues , feelings and values of a community and fails to expose the real genius and talent and balanced outlook thats actually easily found in many cities across both the uk and the states.


Damon dash recently went furthest in (IMO fairly ) criticising him and his exec pals to say that they rush to promote artists who are involved in "beef" and conflict ...before they promote artists who speak empowerment and political unity.


i'm aware that lyor cohen started out as RUN DMC's european tour manager and has an ingenious ability to turn a penny into a pound ( a cent to a dollar ) ....

and im sure many people feel the beastie boys and lyor cohen at def jam are foundation hip-hop...but when you look at it .....

not hating on the beasties but they weren't serious they were talking absolute rubbish in their rhymes "fight for your right to party?" .....they weren't serious ...up until pauls boutique/ill communication they were a punk band............you could argue they epitomised appropriation

and of course they are manhattan right? how many bronx artists have their level of wealth and profile still years later?

anyhooooo.....


i can tell from what you've said i know you know all this bro, and i agree fully with what you've said...completely...and i feel im just adding to your points not debating them



im just posting this as a perspective that ive come across and perhaps others might share...or it might be of interest to a few other GS folks when considering all this





its just a really important area of discussion in the music industry still today i think


We may not be quite so far as we might like to think from the days of mainstream money and success for:


elvis as opposed to chuck berry

or benny goodman as opposed to duke ellington

or eric clapton as opposed to b b king


john meyer vs gary clarke jr.....

etc etc





Overall:

....i do believe any musician has the right to be inspired by and create music from any genre...thats healthy....and we all should aspire to the greats.....but there is a real social responsibility that should be acknowledged in the selling of culture and musical works.....and its as badly disregarded by the music execs today as it was a hundred years ago....its just better disguised IMO.

and to clarify:

i do believe talent rises to the top, i am fully supportive of people like adele (my son attends the same arts school she did ) and i embrace people from all backgrounds entering into music genres that their own communities may not have given birth to....

but id argue that if you REALLY love the music, a major part of that can and should be learning what gave birth to the music, where it came from....what is the story of the people behind it....and with so much of modern western music....

(ragtime, jazz, blues, gospel, soul, reggae, hip-hop , rock and roll , funk...trap...)

you're talking about music that comes directly from the struggle related to the african diaspora .

...and that needs to be respected and understood and if you're profiting from the incredible forms of music i just named....you should be responsible and make sure you're supporting the community one way or another....whether you're just a fan or a musician loving the music ....or an exec selling the sh out of it to kids all over the globe.


When miles davis refused to speak with eric clapton when they both happened to be in the same exec lounge mid transit at an airport ......it was apparently about all this "appropriation stuff"....and i can't say i could criticise miles for doing so.

what matters to me, is seeing the best talent come through and the right people rewarded and supported...i just think we still have a very long way to go to be able to say thats the case, both in the uk and the states... (eg. Tekashi 69 ? )


thankfully the kids are going independent and doing very well

i should mention stormzy here

and in the states, coach k and p's artists on quality control...these are all examples of what should be going on IMO, independent artists still in their communities making successes

anyhoo, thats my two cents , one pence worth......not designed to offend or exclude anyone...only to inform / discuss with others

and Overall, still.....you said it best bro. respect

Quote:
Originally Posted by DomiBabi View Post

Listen man, music is love.
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Old 5 days ago
  #182
Beautiful post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostman View Post


...Brilliant ha ha

career goals right there bro



....i fully fully agree with you bro....


and yet at the same time i think there's a real value for us all as musicians to point to a very clear and important line between young musicians naturally mimicking the musical behaviour of their heroes (as a part of their natural musical growth )

and those artists and execs today who are still lifting forms of music and making millions while giving nothing back to the communities they take from


i am fully in support of sampling ...and aware that in truth everything is handed down musically ...inspiration becomes interpretation becomes (hopefully) original work.

and I can tell from your post though that you defo know all this......

so just to move along to my view of where we are at as an industry and a culture with contemporary music today...that troubles me.....and why I've got involved with this thread....


In the UK our two major vocal artists are caucasians performing music of black origin

Adele ...and Ed Sheeran.

Aretha Franklin/Marvin Gaye light IMO

...now as a musician i respect and love their artistry , especially ed sheerans robotic ability to churn out songs


...however i can tell you there are far far more talented british caribbean and british african artists consistently writing and performing music of black origin here in our major cities who do not get the support.


Every week theres an open mic night in great soul club here in London and honestly 80% of the musicians who get up and perform absolutely wipe the floor with big mainstream artists. Theres an exceptional abundant pool of talent in the culture here that just does not receive the support from the british music industry the way that straight out of talent school
artists (adele , amy winehouse ) get support.

its all very bouji, still

One of our greatest recent r and b artists of my time (Craig David) , at the same time that he was on the cover of Vibe magazine in the states , alongisde usher , diddy and Mary J......back home here in the UK he was the subject of derision and white comedian/blackface caricatures of him....which in later years he admitted trashed his self confidence and turned his carrier into a national joke.

that i found very sad......

....and not to even mention lynden david hall...who very few people outside of the culture here have probably ever heard of.


and looking "over the pond" in the US, I'm aware theres a long running argument in the culture as to how many execs in the hip-hop part of the music industry do not come from the community from whom their company is deriving huge profits.

Lyor Cohen of course is one of the main figures for criticism in this aspect.

Its long been the complaint of people like chuck d ...and spike lee...and more recently damon dash....that people like lyor cohen see the dollar signs available to them via the exploitation/monetisation of another communities culture than theirs...and engage with the talent they find, but with an agenda that creates real and negative consequences for the community .

Often when selecting which artists from the community they support and invest in....it is done with an agenda....only certain artists promoting a certain message that the executives are looking for gets promoted.

So as with lyor cohen (who of course now works at youtube and presumably would be involved in the bias reinforcing algorithms that selects what we all see on our YT feeds)....

...there is complaint that executives , like lyor, who do not come from the hip-hop community choose to promote only controversial/player player/street soldier artists as this will defo sell to the suburban/international audiences....

but the more broader representative of the "culture" artists (im thinking dead prez ) will not see the same support.

And to compound this lyor cohen as an example, draws these artists into exploitative deals like his 360 deal.....which essentially is just a money grab.....


....and all the community is left with , is a stereotype broadcasted misrepresentative message of their community spread across the states and internationally, that influences the image and view other communities build of them, simply from music videos....

put simply, suburban communities with little day to day experience of inner city communities are brainwashed into thinking all young males knocking about in the city are carrying and up to no good, the fear this breeds has a consequence which we are all witnessing blowing up all over the world in righteous protests now right?

Some blame the attitude of people like lyor for perpetuating this....and i can dig it.

i think its a fair criticism of people like lyor cohen to say that he has entered into the rich pool of talent of the hip-hop community (which of course is to say the fruit of the labour of the ingenious/inventive talented young people of the bronx in the late 70's/early 80's......)

from his own community.....

and as a business man has made millions from doing so.....which of course then moves into his community ..(via his own family wealth and spending etc )

but what do people like lyor return to the community.

?

They sell a skewed, mis representative image of a section of a community that simply mis informs a wider society as to the actual issues , feelings and values of a community and fails to expose the real genius and talent and balanced outlook thats actually easily found in many cities across both the uk and the states.


Damon dash recently went furthest in (IMO fairly ) criticising him and his exec pals to say that they rush to promote artists who are involved in "beef" and conflict ...before they promote artists who speak empowerment and political unity.


i'm aware that lyor cohen started out as RUN DMC's european tour manager and has an ingenious ability to turn a penny into a pound ( a cent to a dollar ) ....

and im sure many people feel the beastie boys and lyor cohen at def jam are foundation hip-hop...but when you look at it .....

not hating on the beasties but they weren't serious they were talking absolute rubbish in their rhymes "fight for your right to party?" .....they weren't serious ...up until pauls boutique/ill communication they were a punk band............you could argue they epitomised appropriation

and of course they are manhattan right? how many bronx artists have their level of wealth and profile still years later?

anyhooooo.....


i can tell from what you've said i know you know all this bro, and i agree fully with what you've said...completely...and i feel im just adding to your points not debating them



im just posting this as a perspective that ive come across and perhaps others might share...or it might be of interest to a few other GS folks when considering all this





its just a really important area of discussion in the music industry still today i think


We may not be quite so far as we might like to think from the days of mainstream money and success for:


elvis as opposed to chuck berry

or benny goodman as opposed to duke ellington

or eric clapton as opposed to b b king


john meyer vs gary clarke jr.....

etc etc





Overall:

....i do believe any musician has the right to be inspired by and create music from any genre...thats healthy....and we all should aspire to the greats.....but there is a real social responsibility that should be acknowledged in the selling of culture and musical works.....and its as badly disregarded by the music execs today as it was a hundred years ago....its just better disguised IMO.

and to clarify:

i do believe talent rises to the top, i am fully supportive of people like adele (my son attends the same arts school she did ) and i embrace people from all backgrounds entering into music genres that their own communities may not have given birth to....

but id argue that if you REALLY love the music, a major part of that can and should be learning what gave birth to the music, where it came from....what is the story of the people behind it....and with so much of modern western music....

(ragtime, jazz, blues, gospel, soul, reggae, hip-hop , rock and roll , funk...trap...)

you're talking about music that comes directly from the struggle related to the african diaspora .

...and that needs to be respected and understood and if you're profiting from the incredible forms of music i just named....you should be responsible and make sure you're supporting the community one way or another....whether you're just a fan or a musician loving the music ....or an exec selling the sh out of it to kids all over the globe.


When miles davis refused to speak with eric clapton when they both happened to be in the same exec lounge mid transit at an airport ......it was apparently about all this "appropriation stuff"....and i can't say i could criticise miles for doing so.

what matters to me, is seeing the best talent come through and the right people rewarded and supported...i just think we still have a very long way to go to be able to say thats the case, both in the uk and the states... (eg. Tekashi 69 ? )


thankfully the kids are going independent and doing very well

i should mention stormzy here

and in the states, coach k and p's artists on quality control...these are all examples of what should be going on IMO, independent artists still in their communities making successes

anyhoo, thats my two cents , one pence worth......not designed to offend or exclude anyone...only to inform / discuss with others

and Overall, still.....you said it best bro. respect
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Old 5 days ago
  #183
Gear Head
 

On another point, there is a lot of scam with the marketing ethic attitude, like planting a tree in Africa for some amount of sales, I mean how can we verify?
Seems like musicians get always more or less scammed anyway (givers vs takers)
Old 4 days ago
  #184
Lives for gear
 
boombapdame's Avatar
 

You @ ghostman and @ DomiBabi may be interested in Keith Harris' open letter at https://www.billboard.com/articles/n...music-industry

and Ronald E. Sweeney's open letter at https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.c...t-in-the-room/
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Old 4 days ago
  #185
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
You @ ghostman and @ DomiBabi may be interested in Keith Harris' open letter at https://www.billboard.com/articles/n...music-industry

and Ronald E. Sweeney's open letter at https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.c...t-in-the-room/
...good looking out bro, thats definitely exactlly what i was on about.


Its very real......

I hadn't actually heard of those guys and Ronald Sweeney's suggestions to remedy things are great IMO.


have a good day fella
Old 3 days ago
  #186
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jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostman View Post
...good looking out bro ...


have a good day fella
Uhh... she ain’t your bro, fella.
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Old 3 days ago
  #187
Lives for gear
OK,

So, to whoever complain in this regard: I propose that if you give up EVERYTHING "White" culture has produced. All of it, medical, technological, (That includes musical technology....like RECORDING in any format.) Architectural GIVE IT ALL BACK......I never said you could borrow it. Surrender your iPhone and close all your social media accounts cease to use to the internet, stop driving you car, stop seeing your doctor, stop seeing your dentist.

...And I will give up anything identified as originating from a "Black" source.

Deal?

.......Hmm.....Although it didn't originate from "White" people, why don't you take "Cultural Marxism" as part of the divorce......It's all yours since you seem to like it so much.
Old 3 days ago
  #188
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
OK,

So, to whoever complain in this regard: I propose that if you give up EVERYTHING "White" culture has produced. All of it, medical, technological, (That includes musical technology....like RECORDING in any format.) Architectural GIVE IT ALL BACK......I never said you could borrow it. Surrender your iPhone and close all your social media accounts cease to use to the internet, stop driving you car, stop seeing your doctor, stop seeing your dentist.

...And I will give up anything identified as originating from a "Black" source.

Deal?

.......Hmm.....Although it didn't originate from "White" people, why don't you take "Cultural Marxism" as part of the divorce......It's all yours since you seem to like it so much.
that's not reasonable nor what appropriation means, there isn't anything in your list that false credit has been taken of or legitimate credit suppressed! Next you'll be telling white people to give back everything they've taken from Africa.

C'mon man.
Old 3 days ago
  #189
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jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain 8 View Post
that's not reasonable nor what appropriation means, there isn't anything in your list that false credit has been taken of or legitimate credit suppressed! ...
like i said before, that’s not what it means either.

c’mon, man.
Old 3 days ago
  #190
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
like i said before, that’s not what it means either.

c’mon, man.
if appropriation under the context we are speaking of is not defined as taking without compensation or accreditation then what is it?
Old 3 days ago
  #191
Lives for gear
 
jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain 8 View Post
if appropriation under the context we are speaking of is not defined as taking without compensation or accreditation then what is it?
like i said:

"A common example of cultural appropriation is the adoption of the iconography of another culture, and using it for purposes that are unintended by the original culture or even offensive to that culture's mores."

under what context are we speaking of?
Old 2 days ago
  #192
Gear Head
 

Iconography appropriation diverts from the real issue: the exploitation. IMHO the debate shouldn't be about people haircuts or taste in music, it's about monopoly that an elite builds on other people back. Like when they sent SWAT to shutdown mixtape production or pay big money in court judgements to abolish musical sample usage (while borrowing is fine in other art forms). Once a culture is money worthy, it will be abused
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Old 2 days ago
  #193
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
You @ ghostman and @ DomiBabi may be interested in Keith Harris' open letter at https://www.billboard.com/articles/n...music-industry

and Ronald E. Sweeney's open letter at https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.c...t-in-the-room/
whoops, my bad

apologies for incorrectly guessing your gender....and have another good day sis
Old 2 days ago
  #194
Quote:
Originally Posted by keefaz View Post
Like when they sent SWAT to shutdown mixtape production or pay big money in court judgements to abolish musical sample usage (while borrowing is fine in other art forms).
for real! the swat response to mix tapes....wow...its hard to believe.


and in regards to sampling....its a crazy story

my understanding is

... Sampling was born from an ingenious response by the kids in the bronx to the new york state school board in the late 70s removing funding for all music classes (and provision of musical instruments) in the poorer boroughs ....



no longer could the children of musical parents (and grandparents who migrated from the south to new york and chicago, bringing their instruments and blues and jazz with them......) .....no longer could they learn musical instruments and go on to make a living in the city as talented instrumentalists like their parents ....



so instead young musicians-to-be had to look to home for new ways to make music ......and their parents record collections and turntables....

and so began the art of turntablism and the birth of hip-hop.....as a direct response to state school funding cuts in the bronx in the late 70s/early 80s.


So hip-hop was born as a result of another opportunity for an income being removed by the people in the political realm from a community.....


But even thats not good enough, because then people come along and tell the same folks that samplings a crime.....




at every turn....

and the foundation community still even now can't get any executives on the board of the biggest labels for the genre of music it created....

...
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Old 2 days ago
  #195
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jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostman View Post
Sampling was born from an ingenious response by the kids in the bronx to the new york state school board in the late 70s removing funding for all music classes (and provision of musical instruments) in the poorer boroughs.

no longer could the children of musical parents (and grandparents who migrated from the south to new york and chicago, bringing their instruments and blues and jazz with them) learn musical instruments and go on to make a living in the city as talented instrumentalists like their parents.
lol, that's some modern revisionist bullshit if i ever heard it. "a direct response to state school funding cuts in the bronx in the late 70s/early 80s"? most blues and jazz musicians didn't learn how to play in school to begin with (obviously, education for most black and poor white children was even worse back in those days). they mostly learned first from the people around them, and further by getting out there and busting their asses playing anywhere they could. same with the white country and rock musicians.

Quote:
So hip-hop was born as a result of another opportunity for an income being removed by the people in the political realm from a community.
you act like there weren't a million other people from this "community" that were making a living making music during this time and after. if "opportunity for an income" was removed it was because blues and jazz were basically out of style at that point, and young black kids didn't seem to be too interested in making rock music (or any music for that matter ??).

even in schools that did have musical education, i don't think it made much difference as far as career choices or income. most of the musicians in popular rock bands that came up through the 70s/80s/90s simply got themselves a cheap guitar and played along to their favorite records. if anything, poverty as a whole is the real factor here.

thankfully Kool Herc didn't start just another jazz or reggae band like all the other "educated" guys. where would we be if Grandmaster Flash was stuck playing second chair violin in some orchestra?

what sampling and electronic instruments (synths, sequencers, drum machines, etc) did was gave kids who had no real interest in making music to begin with an opportunity and motivation to do so. my own "musical education" in school did nothing for me. my education was simply listening to music. buying a cheap synth and drum machine is what made me a "musician" years later.

Quote:
and the foundation community still even now can't get any executives on the board of the biggest labels for the genre of music it created.
let's face it, most of these guys were never exactly "executive/board member" material to begin with. not too many white rock/pop stars in those positions either.
Old 2 days ago
  #196
Bullshit ?

Okaaaayyy , there’s too much in your post and tone to respond to directly

It’s certainly argumentative and I’m not fussed with that

So I’ll leave ya to your opinion : perspective Have a good evening
Old 2 days ago
  #197
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boombapdame's Avatar
 

You @ ghostman must remember that those who are oppressed can exploit their own just like their oppressors can. Black execs (Gordy, Combs, etc.) have done/do the same as Lyor Cohen.
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