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Which compressor to chain to my Alan Smart C2 for 2 buss mastering/limiting duties?
Old 10th June 2007 | Show parent
  #31
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4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIZ Records View Post
Hey Thrill, thanks for the help.


So you dont think the API 2500 would be a good combo with the C2 on the buss for more colour and better overall sound?
Nope.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RIZ Records View Post
What do you think about the new SSL X-Rack Eq's? ( if you tried them ). Also, the Neve 8803 dual eq?
The Xrack sound like the 9K EQ's. Clean and efficient but powerful.

Haven't tried the 8803 and am not really looking forward to it either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RIZ Records View Post
Im making a track right now, and i got the drums goin through the GTQ2, using a bit of the eq on it, and the C2, and honestly its sounding pretty damn good, kick is banging without losing bass or distorting,ect,
but comparing it with mastered tracks, there's something over them that im missing. Im guessing it has something to do with mastering. They are richer or something, and sounds like the instruments have more of their own space too. There's more sonic goodness over them that doesnt have anything to do with the way im mixing. Thats why i was wondering about adding the 2500 to the chain for more colour/richness, and mabye a rich EQ for the buss would help a lot aswell? I definetly getting closer, but im not quite there yet.


Thanks.
Its not the just the mastering its the mixing and production as a a whole.

And it has a lot to do with your mixing/production prowess.

In mastering yeah they can squeeze out a little more width and size out of your mix but those things have to be there to begin with. You can't add whats not there in mastering without it affecting everything. That's why the best mastering engineers will go out of there way not to fukk up all the hard work you've done for months. Its the worst feeling to hear back something that came back from an ME session and it sounds totally different than what you did because they decided to play with it.

Again if you want width, size, beef, fatness, thickness, power(every over used adjective in terms of sonics used) you have to bring it first in your production than your mix. If you can't bring it look at first your skill set as an arranger/producer, than as a recording engineer and lastly as mixing engineer. Where ever you are weakest it will show down the line in the overall sound. If you are a better producer than engineer find someone to track it for you. If you feel you can track than find some one with the mixing prowess and a sound you like. But if you aren't the greatest producer/arranger than all bets are off because without the clay you can't make the Venus De Milo.
Old 10th June 2007 | Show parent
  #32
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Stitch333's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelvetGoatmine View Post
Everyone that sells gear to others.
Seems like more and more of the content is for just that purpose

(except for Binary Bob, keepin it real as always)



In general, if you tracked and mixed your music competently, a little comp on the 2mix will go a long way.
Old 10th June 2007
  #33
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🎧 15 years
Thanks guys, good points.


However, im not really having a problem with phatness or thickness, and im messing with the gear and getting damn good sounds out of it. Comparing it with commercial tracks i like and the drums,ect, are bangin just as hard and as phat.


But im lacking in colour. Mabye its colour over the 2 track mix im after or noticing that im lacking compared to the commercial ****. Nothing to do with phatness or whatever, just colour or some sonic footprints or richness that is over these tracks that my gear wont provide. I dont know if its them mixing on a ssl console has anything to do with it either. Like i if brought my seperated tracks to a studio and they ran them through each channel on a ssl console,ect, if that would impart more colour or sonics, closer to what im hearing that im missing. Dre and them top dawgs must be doing some gain staging no?



So, if i simply wanted to add more colour, or sonic sweetness just by passing my 2mix through and doin a little tweak or whatever, what would be good?
Old 10th June 2007 | Show parent
  #34
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Stitch333's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIZ Records View Post
Thanks guys, good points.


However, im not really having a problem with phatness or thickness, and im messing with the gear and getting damn good sounds out of it. Comparing it with commercial tracks i like and the drums,ect, are bangin just as hard and as phat.


But im lacking in colour. Mabye its colour over the 2 track mix im after or noticing that im lacking compared to the commercial ****. Nothing to do with phatness or whatever, just colour or some sonic footprints or richness that is over these tracks that my gear wont provide. I dont know if its them mixing on a ssl console has anything to do with it either. Like i if brought my seperated tracks to a studio and they ran them through each channel on a ssl console,ect, if that would impart more colour or sonics, closer to what im hearing that im missing. Dre and them top dawgs must be doing some gain staging no?



So, if i simply wanted to add more colour, or sonic sweetness just by passing my 2mix through and doin a little tweak or whatever, what would be good?
This has character
Old 10th June 2007 | Show parent
  #35
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🎧 15 years
RIZ..your setting were the issue on the C2. Learn your gear. The distressor is an awesome piece of gear for vocals. The c2 imparts an SSL like character to it, and is used as a sub for the SSL (read, not the real thing), but it is a damn good bus compressor.

For color, you need to add distortion. There are many ways to do that, but u could print stuff through the distressor if u wanted. A lot of guys just use their MPC or an sp12.

Anyway, Thrill is right. Your mix skills are what you need to work on more then anything. You have good gear.
Old 10th June 2007 | Show parent
  #36
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heathen's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
As Australias top mastering engineer is constantly reminding people that what he does you can not do at home, he is absolutely correct. A little home mastering though never hurt anyone its just that doing it yerself is not proper mastering and will most likely never give you that commercial slick sound.

As Thrill said if you have a great mix or series of mixes, an experienced mastering engineer will take it to that next level of sonic excellence.

The mastering engineer I was referring to has mastered around 8000 albums, countless singles and started as a vinyl cutting engineer at the age of 15. When you have a serious track that sounds damn good why **** it up yourself, take it to someone like the above mentioned guy and his $1,000,000 mastering suite, if your mix already sounds good, they will make sure it sounds superb everywhere on nearly any playback environment. A mastering engineer is a master of thier profession as well, if they are not they are just messing around.

No one here is trying to say this or that about your mixing skills, but it is generally the place to start, mastering is not a magic cure for a poor mix, especially when done yourself. Mastering is'nt really expensive anyway really, maybe $250 an hour, that equals 20 mastered tracks or 1 piece of new gear which may or may not work for you.
Old 11th June 2007 | Show parent
  #37
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🎧 15 years
Thanks a lot guys, all your advice and help is really appreciated.


Thrill, was just wondering if you can tell me the difference between how the SSL X-Rack compressors handle drums, compared to the C2. Does one have more mojo or colour than the other, and which one can punch up drums harder. Basically which one sounds better on drums.


I think the C2 is amazing at making drums hit hard.



Thanks a lot.

Old 11th June 2007 | Show parent
  #38
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andrewj's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
The Alan Smart is nice on overheads or a reverbed drums-2track that is seperately driven through the C2 with fast attack and that sexy squash button turned on!

heh

With low ratio, slow attack and not too much make up gain you get great results with the C2 on the final 2-track (as many guys mentioned here!).

heh

I needed some time to get what I want from my C2 on the buss! But this great unit works.

However it is never a bad idea to invest into additional compressors/limiters! The API was laso on my list before! Also the Drawmer 1968 ME!

I finally bought a Ted Fletcher Channel Strip because of it's versatile good sounding comp and use that one a lot.

My personal dream machines for buss compression (on my holy wishlist!!!):

Drawmer S3

TubeTech SMC 2BM

Crane Song STC 8

Vintage Design Neve Style Comp Another Neve Style unit could fit also, if it sounds as good!

There are definatly more nice tools on the market, but I think that one of them will be my next add on!
Old 11th June 2007 | Show parent
  #39
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIZ Records View Post


Thrill, was just wondering if you can tell me the difference between how the SSL X-Rack compressors handle drums, compared to the C2. Does one have more mojo or colour than the other, and which one can punch up drums harder. Basically which one sounds better on drums.


I think the C2 is amazing at making drums hit hard.



Thanks a lot.


If i want drums to hit hard i never:

1) Rely on compression on a track to do it.

2) Rely on one compressor to do it.

I hope this helps.

On the X-Rack/ C2 question they all have the "SSL thing" going for them just different flavors of it. You pick and choose if its the right flavor for the right job.

That's all.

Mixing is not about a couple of pieces of gear that work all the time the same on everything its about making the right choices in the moment to maximize what you are feeling in that specific moment.

Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 15 years
Thanks Thrill and andrew, i appreciate the help.
Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #41
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🎧 15 years
Thrill, one last question i forgot to ask you.


I know this isnt a practice for you, but is there anything else i can use with the C2 over my 2 mix to add more colour, richness, dimension, gloss, whatever you wanna call it to the whole track? Something you can recommend wheather it be another Compressor or EQ or something?



Thanks a lot.
Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #42
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andrewj's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Sorry for answering without being asked, but if you wanna add something for some glue, color and richness and you don't wanna think of a Pre or a EQ the only thing that comes in mind for me is a great converter like the:


Crane Song HEDD 192


or the


UAUDIO 2192


I got plenty recommendations for both units. Personally I would take the Crane Song perhaps, because you control the amount of colour yourself.

I do not know what thrill things about that, but to me a great converter like the ones above would be a great investment on your way to the big boys sound! heh
Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #43
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Syki's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathen View Post
You beat me, I new your attack was about 1 if your losing bottom end. Also threshold is an irrelevant setting unless we know the level of the track your sending through it, A little C2 goes a long way and I find myself usually only hitting it a max of about 1-2 db GR for stereo buss duties.
Exactly I only use from 2 to 4 db ( 4 being max for a desired effect) on the Mix Bus.......ahh but added a Crane Song Ibis with it....wow talk about fixing any issues!!!!
Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #44
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🎧 15 years
Thanks a lot for the help guys, will definetly look at the Hedd.


What about the Manly Vari-Mu in series with the C2? Would the Vari-Mu take away from the agressive, hard sound the C2 provides? I want something that when i put my 2 mix through im really going to hear a nice sonic improvement with richness, depth, more glue,ect.


Azriel_7, thanks for the input i appreciate it, but at this point i just do, its a personal preferance that i feel i need, as i want to do my own home mastering or whatever you wanna call it right now to get my point across even better, and add an enhancement to my tracks. I mean i'll have a version of my track where i dont do any mastering aswell, but i deinfetly want something more for the 2 mix right now.
Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #45
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIZ Records View Post
Thanks a lot for the help guys, will definetly look at the Hedd.


What about the Manly Vari-Mu in series with the C2? Would the Vari-Mu take away from the agressive, hard sound the C2 provides? I want something that when i put my 2 mix through im really going to hear a nice sonic improvement with richness, depth, more glue,ect.


Azriel_7, thanks for the input i appreciate it, but at this point i just do, its a personal preferance that i feel i need, as i want to do my own home mastering or whatever you wanna call it right now to get my point across even better, and add an enhancement to my tracks. I mean i'll have a version of my track where i dont do any mastering aswell, but i deinfetly want something more for the 2 mix right now.
dude, you are focusing so much on this that it's crazy. Overdrive your pres if they are good..use an sp12 or MPC..get a distressor, but you dont want to stack a bunch of **** on the 2 buss. Its not going to do what you want anyway. I mean, you didn't even have the C2 set right. Learn to mix first man..seriously, learn your gear...you dont need to keep buying gear. The c2 sounds very "gluey" if your mix is right from the beginning.

Plus you are probably listening and comparing to professionally mastered mixes. Do you have any idea what a great mastering job can do to a great mix? I have unmastered mixes released that sound like....great mixes. They dont get "that sound"until after mastering. You will not be able to replicate this unless you want to dedicate years of your life and a lot of money to being a mstering engineer.

So in short:

Color your sounds BEFORE they hit the 2 bus. This is done by learning how to mix and using the right gear for the job. (sp12 for example on drums..distressor on vocals...just examples)

Learn your gear inside and out. Learn how to set up a mix compressor and mix through it.

Make a great mix.

Get it mastered by someone else...meaning ..not you.
Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #46
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Methlab, man, i just got the C2 hooked up last week, and you keep talking this **** about me making 1 wrong setting on the C2, big friggin whoop man the next day i was making kicks and snares bang harder then some mastered tracks i was comparing them to, but thats a different thing that im not talking about here. That was the very first time i ever put something through the 2 mix with the C2, and then i listened after noticing what i did. So stop telling me to learn my gear man, i am learning my gear and pretty fast at that. Its not rocket science man you twist the knob untill it sounds good, i have good ears. Its more about the actual art of mixing itself that's the hard part. The majority of my gear is DI's pres, and well you just turn the gain up, not much choices and option for different sounds there.



Yes im comparing my **** to Dre tracks that are obviously mastered, probabbly not an ideal thing to do but ohwell. The C2 is very gluey yes, i love it, the differance it makes is pretty big, but i want more richness and depth sprinkled over my whole 2 mix, know what im sayin? Its possibly something over the 2 mix by a mastering guy or something that im hearing, mabye its something to do with the mix, i dont know man i cant explain it. Mabye its a real SSL EQ that im hearing, its probabbly that. Mabye its the sound of summing on an SSL console, although many people have said that summing your 2 track through a analog line input gives the same results.


For example a mastering engineer like Chris Athens said he sometimes uses his Neve EQ without the EQ engaged, and it adds to the sound on a good way, this is what im talking about man.


A quote from Chris Athens


"For example, putting my Neve EQ in line without even switching the bypass off changes the sound! That can be really nice, adding to the sound in a subtle but important way. I guess it's the transformers or something, but putting stuff in line can often be enough to do what you want."



Tell him not to add colour to the 2 mix.


Well duh man if i wanted to send my **** to a mastering Engineer then well i would!, but i dont, the mastering i wanted to do was mabye some slight EQ, limiting, and something like a Neve EQ for added richness and depth to the 2 mix. It has a different effect when you put something over the 2 mix versus individually right? Mabye i want the effect on the 2 mix on not on individual sounds.
Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #47
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Azriel_7, thanks again for your input.


I think what im missing the real hardware SSL EQ's and dynamics, but mostly the EQ. I mean like i said the majority of my gear is DI's/Pre's, and one pair of Avedis EQ's. Im getting the drums to bang the way i want with the C2, but the Duende Eq's just dont have that sound im hearing. Ive tweaked the knobs one million different ways, its like trying to get blood from a stone. Hardware is hardware, and software is software. when your boosting a signal/frequency and saturating the sound, software doesnt have "that" real sound like hardware. Plus ive talked to a few people who say that the X-Rack hardware is really killer. Im pretty sure what im hearing is that saturation a real EQ gives when boosting a frequency and turning the gain up.



But this whole "learn your gear" thing is the wrong advice for my situation. Not much i can do/choices with DI's/Pre's, and like i said im getting drums to really bang with the C2. Its an EQ thing im hearing im missing. Most of these tracks im refering to are mixed on SSL's, and Duende just cant produce that sound no matter what you do. Sure you can EQ the same way, but it wont sound that same way because real hardware EQ's saturate when you turn the gain up on frequencies, and it sounds really good. Im not bashing Duende as its great if your looking for that type of sound, but im looking for that real hardware sound.



I think the best solution would be to look into the X-Rack filled with 4 EQ's and 4 dynamics. I guess i could make my drum pattern, mix the drums first, or atleast phatten them up a lot, then that would leave me with the gear to mix/phatten up the instruments as i go add finish the rest of the track off.
Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #48
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🎧 15 years
Ok..yeah because RIZ you IMd me on AIM all the damn time about this ****, and I said the same thing I am saying now. You can take it personal and say what I'm saying is bull****, but it's not personal, just how I see it.

You had the C2 for 1 week now and you are saying you learned it. Cmon man, be real about it. It takes a long time to learn gear, and the worst thing you can do is keep buying more of it before you know what you are doing.

You are saying you have good ears and then your unmastered mix though the c2 sounds better then pro masters. I doubt this for some reason.

Everyone in the thread has said the same thing, and I have said the same thing on AIM like 5000 times.

Anyway, Chris Athens does more then just run a 2 track through a piece of gear. Those guys KNOW THEIR ****. They have used it for a long time. But hey, just go buy the Neve Eq and run your mix through it if that will make you happy. I just don't think you know what you really want yet. Whatever.
Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #49
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🎧 15 years
And the last post you are now talking about individual tracks again. Which is exactly what I was saying...the color comes from the hardware EQs, or the transformers from the sampler...not the 2 bus. So you now are agreeing with what we are saying it seems.
Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #50
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🎧 15 years
Agreeing with what methlab? You never once said in your posts in this thread that the colour im looking for is coming from hardware EQ's, i figured that out for myself and from listening. You mentioned that it probabbly wasnt a mastering thing, but you didnt mention the EQ thing either.


I didnt say that i mastered the C2 dude, i said im learning it fast, atleast for what im focusing on right now at the moment, which is how to make drums punch through the speakers without distorting in a bad way. Im sure there are going to be other things im going to need out of the C2 other than getting drums to bang, but im a quick learner. I can figure out if the gear is able to give me what i want fairly quickly, i mean just turn the knobs and use your ears. its not like i have a manley massive passive which has on billion knobs. Sure i still have to learn and experiment with parallel compression, and other techniques for things,ect, but that is a different issue that im not talking about hear.


And i didnt say that my mix sounds better through the C2 than mastered tracks, read it again, i said as far as getting drums to bang.


Thanks for the advice though.
Old 12th June 2007 | Show parent
  #51
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🎧 15 years
I mean single channels were effected and not the 2 bus. Just buy Colortone pro and stick that on the 2 bus and **** with it..there's your color..game over.

Im making like UFC and tapping out of this thread.
Old 15th June 2007 | Show parent
  #52
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GYang's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIZ Records View Post

when i put my 2 mix through im really going to hear a nice sonic improvement with richness, depth, more glue,ect.

.
Thermionic Phoenix does it here
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