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What's the Point of Making Hip Hop Anymore
Old 10th June 2019
  #31
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Supply & Demand Factors

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammynOut View Post
Going on 31 years. Started out at Uncle’s studio at 9 or 10. Him and my aunt were part of a classic r&b group. From there interned at Bad Boy as a teen and moved on in 1995. The artists these days are making more money off shows, sneaker, clothing deals, endorsements, merchandising, social media campaigns, etc. than ever before. They are also invested heavily in tech, startups, and companies such as Lyft and Uber. There is basically no $ in streaming royalties. Labels keep basically all the payouts from the streaming services. The music has become a loss leader to push your brand. It’s all about the brand.

Artists, back in the day as well, never made much $ from record sales. Publishing, yes. But the avenues that are open today are serious money makers. Two trips to Dubai a year can pay off a mortgage or two.

The music has become a loss leader and that trickles down to every one involved in the music making process (producers, engineers, etc.) other than the labels who are getting a combined $20mill a day from streaming services.
Serious money would be equivalent to the 'Majority' of Rappers today earning $500k/annually and that is Not the case when the basic mathematical numbers of saturation factors are presented. Yes, there are lesser Record label control but the Top Artist's on the Billboard Charts are all Backed by Major/Label Distribution. This says a lot more oppose to the indie Rapper on a unknown label reaching these level. Yes, there are a Million and one Rappers today with some popping up daily but the Majority aren't even close to averaging even $50k/year (median salary).
Old 10th June 2019
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammynOut View Post
Going on 31 years. Started out at Uncle’s studio at 9 or 10. Him and my aunt were part of a classic r&b group. From there interned at Bad Boy as a teen and moved on in 1995. The artists these days are making more money off shows, sneaker, clothing deals, endorsements, merchandising, social media campaigns, etc. than ever before. They are also invested heavily in tech, startups, and companies such as Lyft and Uber. There is basically no $ in streaming royalties. Labels keep basically all the payouts from the streaming services. The music has become a loss leader to push your brand. It’s all about the brand.

Artists, back in the day as well, never made much $ from record sales. Publishing, yes. But the avenues that are open today are serious money makers. Two trips to Dubai a year can pay off a mortgage or two.

The music has become a loss leader and that trickles down to every one involved in the music making process (producers, engineers, etc.) other than the labels who are getting a combined $20mill a day from streaming services.
What percentage of artists would you say have clothing deals, do shows in Dubai and have investments in tech startups? How many new indie artists?
Old 10th June 2019
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smccarthy945 View Post
First off I want to say that I love producing music and recording. However, lately I feel like what's the point anymore. If you look on Youtube, music videos get the lowest engagement compared to lame videos like talk shows, top 10 lists, and animal videos. The average music video gets $16k views. Only a small top tier group of artists get millions of views.

I see Hip Hop groups putting out amazing music with incredible videos getting 10k views. Music sales are all but dead and streaming pays next to nothing anymore. People don't seem to appreciate music - especially the younger generations. Everyone who has a laptop thinks they can make amazing beats. Everyone thinks they can rap but the truth is only a small elite can actually do it at a top tier level.

I love making music just to do it but I also do it to see some feedback and appreciation for all your efforts. Musicians like interacting with others and watching what they create have an impact. Now, even albums like Pete Rock's SP1200 album is all but ignored except for a small select few.

So I ask - what is the point anymore if people don't care, people barely listen (even to well known groups - IE. Erick Sermon's latest album), and devote their time to other things outside of music.

Yes, you can make your own music and do it for your own ego but I enjoy doing it so people get enjoyment out of it and like seeing the interaction. If some of the best artists can't even demand attention, why bother anymore?
Anyone in the last 70 years could have written this basic gripe with the music industry. Very few people make a good living from music and reach a wide audience. For every thousand that try, much less than one get real success. It has always been thus. Hip hop is no different to other genres. It’s just really hard to get noticed in music. Yes record sales are way down but in the bad old days before internet, unless u got a record deal (less than one in a thousand) u had no chance of reaching anyone at all. Most signed acts abc then also got nowhere. It’s always been a fraction of a fraction that go on to have serious commercial success. It’s not always fair of course who gets what but that’s just life.
Old 10th June 2019
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
What percentage of artists would you say have clothing deals, do shows in Dubai and have investments in tech startups? How many new indie artists?
Bunch of Indy artist do Dubai. As long as they have an online following and decent songs, they will get there. My nephew books them all the time for shows in Asia, Dubai, Eastern Europe, Africa.

Honestly, Indy artists have had trouble making $ in any era of hip hop. But it’s so much easier to be heard these days, especially if ur social media presence and brand is interesting to the public. More companies are open to doing business with rappers these days than ever before. It’s a much bigger pot available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANR2011 View Post
Serious money would be equivalent to the 'Majority' of Rappers today earning $500k/annually and that is Not the case when the basic mathematical numbers of saturation factors are presented. Yes, there are lesser Record label control but the Top Artist's on the Billboard Charts are all Backed by Major/Label Distribution. This says a lot more oppose to the indie Rapper on a unknown label reaching these level. Yes, there are a Million and one Rappers today with some popping up daily but the Majority aren't even close to averaging even $50k/year (median salary).
You have missed the point. The $ being generated by rappers’ brands have nothing to do with record sales or billboard charts. Indy rappers, with social media followings, go big easier these days than at any time. Many times they r not even good, or even rap on beat. But that thing they people cling onto them for is what drives their success, their shows, their endorsements, etc. Music is the loss leader.
Old 11th June 2019
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammynOut View Post
Bunch of Indy artist do Dubai. As long as they have an online following and decent songs, they will get there. My nephew books them all the time for shows in Asia, Dubai, Eastern Europe, Africa.

Honestly, Indy artists have had trouble making $ in any era of hip hop. But it’s so much easier to be heard these days, especially if ur social media presence and brand is interesting to the public. More companies are open to doing business with rappers these days than ever before. It’s a much bigger pot available.



You have missed the point. The $ being generated by rappers’ brands have nothing to do with record sales or billboard charts. Indy rappers, with social media followings, go big easier these days than at any time. Many times they r not even good, or even rap on beat. But that thing they people cling onto them for is what drives their success, their shows, their endorsements, etc. Music is the loss leader.
I guess I never witnessed the difficulty making $$$ as an indie before. You needed some $$$ to be in the game and record/promote, but a spot on a mix show or in rotation locally would open the door to some consignment and sales. You wouldn't be rich, but if you had something worth hustling with, you'd be able to live and pay bills.
Most guys I know personally started that way, because we werent in a "major" market. And if something blew, by the time majors came around, you were already making $$$. The money was made from the music.

I agree with you that viewing the music as a loss leader is the way. But at least it costs less to take shots today. The costs of recording are nothing compared to what they were.

The old way ain't coming back, but that's not just hip hop. It's most entertainment as technology advances.
Old 11th June 2019
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammynOut View Post
You have missed the point. The $ being generated by rappers’ brands have nothing to do with record sales or billboard charts. Indy rappers, with social media followings, go big easier these days than at any time. Many times they r not even good, or even rap on beat. But that thing they people cling onto them for is what drives their success, their shows, their endorsements, etc. Music is the loss leader.
Actually the OP's Thread is regarding Music alone so isn't that the Point? Branding from Hip hop for Rappers is another business altogether and technically Major Rappers still dominate as for the Majority's with the merch.
Old 16th June 2019
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smccarthy945 View Post
Yes, you can make your own music and do it for your own ego but I enjoy doing it so people get enjoyment out of it and like seeing the interaction.
both same. your own ego.
Old 17th June 2019
  #38
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boombapdame's Avatar
Who @ GrammynOut are your uncle and aunt and what group and who is your nephew?
Old 7th July 2019
  #39
Gear Nut
 

1930-2000 was a strange period in history, where recordings and radio allowed music artists and related professionals to make more money than they normally did. there was an abnormally large "music middle class" in this era.

go back to the 1800s or 1700s, and it was the same then as it is today:
a few top-tier musicians making a living, some quite a good living. the rest were mostly hobbyists and scroungers.

so of about 700 years of known western music history, 70 of them were money years.

welcome to the new era: same as the old era.
Old 9th July 2019
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog007 View Post
Yes record sales are way down
I'm not sure that's totally accurate unless you're talking about physical media (though LP and cassette sales have increased recently). Apparently, 75% of revenue now comes specifically from streaming.
Old 9th July 2019
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atma View Post
I'm not sure that's totally accurate unless you're talking about physical media (though LP and cassette sales have increased recently). Apparently, 75% of revenue now comes specifically from streaming.
I mean record sales, streaming or physical. Subscription Spotify stuff not counting
Old 10th July 2019
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog007 View Post
I mean record sales, streaming or physical. Subscription Spotify stuff not counting
Why doesn't subscription streaming count? From the numbers I've seen, subscription streaming has become the main source of revenue recently.

And just in 1999 they introduced "diamond" record status (something I'd never heard of). Even Eminem has a couple of diamond certified albums, so it seems like music is certainly being consumed, despite the shift to internet streaming as the main source.
Old 10th July 2019
  #43
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atma View Post
Why doesn't subscription streaming count? From the numbers I've seen, subscription streaming has become the main source of revenue recently.

And just in 1999 they introduced "diamond" record status (something I'd never heard of). Even Eminem has a couple of diamond certified albums, so it seems like music is certainly being consumed, despite the shift to internet streaming as the main source.
https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/201...ices-pay-2019/ is subscription streaming some different entity?
Old 10th July 2019
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atma View Post
Why doesn't subscription streaming count? From the numbers I've seen, subscription streaming has become the main source of revenue recently.

And just in 1999 they introduced "diamond" record status (something I'd never heard of). Even Eminem has a couple of diamond certified albums, so it seems like music is certainly being consumed, despite the shift to internet streaming as the main source.
The whole point of my initial point is that steaming is nothing like old school record sales. Artists and record companies now make a fraction of what they used to make. The amount u make through a steamed song on Spotify per view is so tiny. There are absolutely advantages to this new model of course but making a heap of money through subscription services isn’t one of them. I personally prefer these days for a bunch of reasons but it’s much harder to make cash from collecting royalties.
Old 10th July 2019
  #45
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Why @ Moondog007 do you personally prefer these days?
Old 10th July 2019
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
Why @ Moondog007 do you personally prefer these days?
I guess I love the idea that everyone can find an audience without needing gate keepers of record companies radio play etc. In the old days, few people were given a chance. A small percentage of them could make a squilluon on record sales. Today, more people are successful in terms of finding an audience. They can make that work for them financially in creative ways but record sales won’t cut it.
Old 10th July 2019
  #47
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog007 View Post
I guess I love the idea that everyone can find an audience without needing gate keepers of record companies radio play etc. In the old days, few people were given a chance. A small percentage of them could make a squilluon on record sales. Today, more people are successful in terms of finding an audience. They can make that work for them financially in creative ways but record sales won’t cut it.
I can be heard but with no compensation for the
time and mental energy spent to create and hone the craft. Cool for people who only long to be heard. Anyway, music has lost its profit on talent thing IMO. Now it will be more manufactured right from the beginning, like artists with a lot of plays being offered a contract early on.
But music sems to be a nice sideway to build and empower one's brand.
Old 10th July 2019
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
I can be heard but with no compensation for the
time and mental energy spent to create and hone the craft. Cool for people who only long to be heard. Anyway, music has lost its profit on talent thing IMO. Now it will be more manufactured right from the beginning, like artists with a lot of plays being offered a contract early on.
But music sems to be a nice sideway to build and empower one's brand.
I think we are in a way more complex and nuanced situation than this. Love or hate her, I can’t imagine Billie Eilish getting anywhere under the old system. Lots of talented and interesting artists are like this. Granted there’s lots of rubbish as well. There will always be financial compensation for people with large audiences. It just doesn’t predominately come from record sales. It’s also not in the hundreds of millions of dollars as it was a couple of decades ago.
Old 13th July 2019
  #49
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The other downside of "the democratization" of music where potentially anyone can release music is that there's SO MUCH of it, it can be nearly impossible to heard, just statistically.
Old 14th July 2019
  #50
RRL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barryfell View Post
Oh yeah making money from making music is dead for almost everyone. The money is all in performance unless you are one of a few lucky few, and even then, it's only a tiny percentage of performers who are ever going to make a lot of money.

Just gotta make it for the love rather than the money however you can.
The music industry is different now. Instead of using artists to sell music, they use music to sell artists. Someone comes out with a hip hop song that sounds like the last 50 hits with the same drum patterns and same 808 sounds and it generates money from shows and endorsements. Since no one is selling records today and streaming is a scam that only the streamers make any real bank, the labels are making all of their money off 360 deals. So technically, even if an artist has a yard sale selling hundreds of thousands of dollars of their used merchandise, they are owed a percentage of it.

It just isn't about music anymore. It's about instagram followers, winning worthless awards, and fame. I remember hearing artists for the first time back in the day and going months without even knowing what they looked like. Them days are over!!!. No more press kits are needed. If an artists is on tv, has millions of followers on instagram, or has a following to the point that you are called a hater for not liking their crappy music, it's good for a 3 month album run at the max. Because that's about the max time an album keeps the attention of people today. An album drops on March 5 and on march 7th everyone is talking about how great it is and that it's one of the greatest albums ever. By April 1st, kids aren't listening to it anymore because it's old. They are simply in competition with their peers to listen to the newest music first and go on to the next "new" song.

It's a different ball game now. The music industry is 100% marketing and promotion and 0% about the music. Why else would a reality show stripper that can barely talk and doesn't write her own lyrics be called the hottest female rapper in the game?
Old 14th July 2019
  #51
RRL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atma View Post
The other downside of "the democratization" of music where potentially anyone can release music is that there's SO MUCH of it, it can be nearly impossible to heard, just statistically.
Very much true. I remember around 85 or 86, we'd be lucky to have 25 rap albums released for the entire year. In high school around 93, We'd get about 60 releases a year(from well known labels of course) and a lot of them were classics. In 2019, I swear it seems like 10-15 hip hop albums are dropping every week. Everyone has a studio(basically a laptop with a broadcast mic) and labels are spending next to nothing to release these garbage albums knowing they are gonna make their money back on that 360 deal
Old 14th July 2019
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog007 View Post
The whole point of my initial point is that steaming is nothing like old school record sales. Artists and record companies now make a fraction of what they used to make. The amount u make through a steamed song on Spotify per view is so tiny. There are absolutely advantages to this new model of course but making a heap of money through subscription services isn’t one of them. I personally prefer these days for a bunch of reasons but it’s much harder to make cash from collecting royalties.
I don't want to get to mathematical into it but IMO a fraction is a understatement oppose to Record sales. Many hyped up Rappers who were debuting on the charts back in the earlier 2000's were predicted to sell anywhere from 650k - 1M in their first week and those were Hard copy Cd's and Lp's. When putting it into perspective that's $6.5 Million to $10 Million alone by just one week of sales and as they tapered off from eventually 75% of sales the 2nd week, 50% of sales 3rd week etc. Most would accumulate (1.625 Million - 2.5 Million within the 1st 6 Months or $16.25 Million to $25 Million) from only Cd & Album sales not including touring & merchandise. Now putting this into perspective that with Streams averaging $0.0084/stream for a 6 month period of a song/ or songs release 1.935 Billion to 2.977 Billion Streams to equal the same numbers. Besides that the 'Art' from the physical CD/LP, Interludes & over artistic elements of the Cd experience is gone and no longer. Songs are just pushed out without that buildup for the anticipation now a days devaluing the overall vibe of the music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRL View Post
The music industry is different now. Instead of using artists to sell music, they use music to sell artists. Someone comes out with a hip hop song that sounds like the last 50 hits with the same drum patterns and same 808 sounds and it generates money from shows and endorsements. Since no one is selling records today and streaming is a scam that only the streamers make any real bank, the labels are making all of their money off 360 deals. So technically, even if an artist has a yard sale selling hundreds of thousands of dollars of their used merchandise, they are owed a percentage of it.

It just isn't about music anymore. It's about instagram followers, winning worthless awards, and fame. I remember hearing artists for the first time back in the day and going months without even knowing what they looked like. Them days are over!!!. No more press kits are needed. If an artists is on tv, has millions of followers on instagram, or has a following to the point that you are called a hater for not liking their crappy music, it's good for a 3 month album run at the max. Because that's about the max time an album keeps the attention of people today. An album drops on March 5 and on march 7th everyone is talking about how great it is and that it's one of the greatest albums ever. By April 1st, kids aren't listening to it anymore because it's old. They are simply in competition with their peers to listen to the newest music first and go on to the next "new" song.

It's a different ball game now. The music industry is 100% marketing and promotion and 0% about the music. Why else would a reality show stripper that can barely talk and doesn't write her own lyrics be called the hottest female rapper in the game?
I've always said that since that Reality Stripper was putting out music. Its actually extremely pathetic because it is obvious that there is no natural talent there and she was simply placed there (even though the ignorant & belligerent will argue that point..). The Business of Music has been failing for a long time now and it's begun to show within Hip hop since around the 2010 with the lesser quality. Those involved in Music these days are basically doing for themselves because the Supply & Demand factors are presented. 'Streams' are failing big time with the falsified inflated numbers https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.c...de-of-conduct/ From the Bot follows to false streams happening it just seems like one big fake industry altogether!

Last edited by ANR2011; 14th July 2019 at 11:47 PM.. Reason: Missing Info
Old 15th July 2019
  #53
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It @ ANR2011 seems like today's music business is the fakest it has ever been or wasn't there always some fakery/deceit involved?
Old 15th July 2019
  #54
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
It @ ANR2011 seems like today's music business is the fakest it has ever been or wasn't there always some fakery/deceit involved?
Its been from the start. It has been like a water channel excavated and the waterflow driven only where it is needed by the channel administration (not the artist). If an artist blew up, read a new spring, then it would be approached and controlled. In hiphop, recall Beastie Boys. Did they switched from punk to rap just for the funk of it? Doubts.
BTW, have you ever made any tracks/projects since?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #55
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When monetary gain, exploitation, and celebrity status are the primary motivating factors for any art form, how can anyone expect that art form to remain in any way creatively/artistically legitimate? I don't know what the answer is because the logistical complexities involved are way beyond my comprehension, but the bottom line is that hip-hop music has been hijacked and culturally appropriated by the music industry.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #56
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The point is mental relaxation. I'm in my 40s and I make beats just for fun. I just like to listen to 'good old music' from the 60s, 70s and when I hear a part that sounds interesting I like to manipulate it or 'play puzzle' with different samples.
To me thats enough.
But if someone like it I guess that he/she is somehow connected to what I was feeling when creating it. As a human it's always nice to know that someone else is able to feel what I felt or get some other feeling out of it (which is very interesting IMO). Its communication without words just by soundwaves. Isn't that crazy?
To me thats not just a point of making HipHop but any type of music.

peace
Old 2 weeks ago
  #57
Gear Addict
 

Rephrase

Let me rephrase my original post a little bit after giving this some thought. The other issue is that technology has essentially ruined music. It took me years to master turntables and spent my college years DJing clubs and making more money than any adult I knew. Why? Because I was amazing on turntable and knew what music to play to pack crowds into South Beach nightclubs. I paid cash to get through college and made a good living. I would do weddings earlier in the evening and then head to the clubs to make the big money. I actually had a bodyguard I hired all weekend to watch my back because I carried so much equipment and money around.

Now any moron can load Serato and push some buttons. It completely killed the art of learning the skill of using turntables. A trained ape can mix now. The same thing has occurred with music production. Before, you used to have to know how to use a sequencer on an Atari or PC along with a hardware sampler and have a good music collection. It took skill and effort to make dope songs. Now any moron can buy FL Studio and sample packs and chop away.

Before you needed access to 2" tape and a good studio to record. You had to be dedicated and put effort in. You needed a good team of people. Now you just need a laptop with some software and a decent mic and you are off to the races.

My point being is that technology has destroyed any skill required in music now. DJs are a dime a dozen, MCs are all over because everyone has a laptop and software and there isn't much skill barrier required anymore. Yes, talent still matters but those with true talent get buried under the untalented clowns.

Unfortunately, technology has ruined music. Why do you think the new generation of millennials and gen Y don't care about music anymore? Because it's disposable and takes little effort to make a song. I watch people bang out a beat and song in an hour now. If de-values music in general. I know it's an inevitable evolution and can't be stopped but I do miss the days where a good DJ needed to be dedicated and practice for years until they were truly good.

It's not even about the music anymore. It's about how much of an idiot you can make yourself on social media to get attention. Then someone might listen to your song for 20 seconds until they hit stop and ask "when's the next one coming out?" We live in a society of total abundance now where people are bombarded with constant information and entertainment from 24 hour news to nonstop instagram posts.

I guess I just don't like the way society is now in general. I loved when smartphones came out and texting with email was invented. Now I hate smartphones and wish I could magically destroy them all. Nothing is sacred anymore - nothing has value and people have the attention span of a gerbil. People have too much of everything - too much news, information, entertainment. Social media is just a clown circus show.

And in the middle of it all music has been reduced to a low value commodity. You can bust your a$$ now making a dope song that is incredible in every aspect and unless you get on instagram and put on your clown show, no one cares.

I absolutely hate the way the world has turned out. I wish I was back in the 80s and 90s before all this disposable technology.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #58
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It has leveled the playing field, now it's about who's better than the next guy because we all have access to the best tools now. It's no longer an obstacle.

That's just the world we live in today.

I still think true talent will rise to the surface, but the best has already been done before. There is just so much to weed through these days. You can make the most epic beat ever, but that beat sounds like something else already done.

Bottom line yes too much technology has destroyed the scene in a way.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atma View Post
When monetary gain, exploitation, and celebrity status are the primary motivating factors for any art form, how can anyone expect that art form to remain in any way creatively/artistically legitimate? I don't know what the answer is because the logistical complexities involved are way beyond my comprehension, but the bottom line is that hip-hop music has been hijacked and culturally appropriated by the music industry.
Exactly. What's missing is real artists. What's missing doesn't have to be more creative than everything that's ever been done, it just needs to be genuine and a complete artistic statement.

The ultimate problem is that most media in this nation exists to show minorities in a negative light to the majority. (If you look at the history of movies/music/news it's obvious historically speaking, and it will be ovious in the future when we look back at the current era.) The dominant majority has more numbers and more money, so the portrayal of the the minority is usually as some type of maladapted, stereotypical and destructive personality. Hip Hop falls squarely in the middle of this.

Last edited by IM WHO YOU THINK; 2 weeks ago at 03:57 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #60
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Why focalize on mainstream then? Isn't any choice to look elsewhere? I know new technology can make us lazy, but come on it's not that hard to discover new talented artists, listenning to some DJ's playlist from non mainstream radio, even Youtube has some content worth digging. Ok, I know not every people are inclined to take time with music, but here it's pro audio forum isn't it?
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