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layering multiple heavy sub 808s issue.
Old 1st April 2019
  #1
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layering multiple heavy sub 808s issue.

So I'm layering a bunch of 808's but I want to get the pitch on each of my samples to be as close to each other as possible otherwise I might get some phase cancelation from the changing pitch of 1 of the samples.

Is there a tool or method I can use to align the sub freqencies so they match up and don't phase each other out when layered?

Some of the 808's have a pitch evelope at the begining to give it more of a kick sound but this is kinda playing havoc. So far im using pitch evelopes to flated the pitch automation but far from perfect. Any ideas?

Thanks
Old 1st April 2019
  #2
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by complex View Post
So I'm layering a bunch of 808's but I want to get the pitch on each of my samples to be as close to each other as possible otherwise I might get some phase cancelation from the changing pitch of 1 of the samples.

Is there a tool or method I can use to align the sub freqencies so they match up and don't phase each other out when layered?

Some of the 808's have a pitch evelope at the begining to give it more of a kick sound but this is kinda playing havoc. So far im using pitch evelopes to flated the pitch automation but far from perfect. Any ideas?

Thanks
Don't layer 808s. It's really that simple.
Old 1st April 2019
  #3
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i think i'd need to hear what exactly you're doing to be of any help.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #4
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there is a plugin called autoalign - Auto-Align: The Automatic Phase Alignment Plug-in | Sound Radix - let me hear what you do with it!
Old 2nd April 2019
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
Don't layer 808s. It's really that simple.
Seconded. There is no reason (or benefit) to layering 808s.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #6
Thirded.
Old 3rd April 2019
  #7
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I will add to the list of people saying you shouldn’t layer 808s or any sub frequencies in general. Not sure what ur going for exactly here. But I guess like the guy said above auto align is probably the best tool for phase alignment there is. But seriously why in the world are you layering 808s?
Old 3rd April 2019
  #8
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it's the new style; it's all the rage—polyphonic, tuned 808s! The sub-bass chords literally explode sound systems (and eardrums)!

It's all about making bass music that hurts people on purpose! Perfect for all the sadist producers out there
Old 3rd April 2019
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atma View Post
it's the new style; it's all the rage—polyphonic, tuned 808s! The sub-bass chords literally explode sound systems (and eardrums)!

It's all about making bass music that hurts people on purpose! Perfect for all the sadist producers out there
Lol wait is this post a April fools joke? Lol
Old 5th April 2019
  #10
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i got a bass theory that violates bass law, i say layer, layer young man!
Old 5th April 2019
  #11
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one thing I would say is that it would be quite a bit easier to layer 808s that you've synthesized yourself, (i.e., Roland's VSTi, etc.) as you'd have quite a bit more control.

you can also simply edit your samples' envelopes so that you're only using the tail of one of them, and the attack/knock of another, etc.

in general, you can get away with layering kick drums together—at least the attack portions that contain all the higher frequencies—but there isn't really any necessity to have multiple layers of different sub "booms" underneath.
Old 6th April 2019
  #12
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The most important thing while layering these is to have them each other not cancelled by its own phase between samples. It's not exactly about pitch at all, because you can heavilly low pass such layered stuff and get as a result just "bassy depth" that will fit to almost any pitch in whole composition. If you're working on FL, set PDC delay off an then add every layer on its own channel, load limiter on these and manipulate with attack time to get the most perfect arrangement between each sample (in time), watching waveform on the bus channel or master for not getting any "holes" or loss in spectrum.

But as stated above, its more simple and effective just with one sample, but - properly effected (e.g. with distortion) or some mid-sounding sample for getting the desired effect.

Best, Doc.
Old 6th April 2019
  #13
Gear Nut
So it seems the people advising against layering 808s don't actually listen to Rap Music (atleast current rap). This has been very prevalent for the past 5 years.

Layered 808s:
Drake - God's Plan
Cardi B - I Like It
Post Malone - Wow

Polyphonic 808s that Overlap
Post Malone - Rockstar
Migos - Stir Fry
Ariana Grande - Thank U Next


Unorthodox methodologies tend to separate the superproducers from everybody welse. Besides layering 808s, there's alot of weirder and counter-intuitive stuff going on:

Off the top of my head:
-On Future's latest album, he has several tracks where the adlibs are pitched up a full 2 octaves. Even when the Chipmunk stuff was popular (2000-2004) they would only pitch it up a half octave at most.

-10 years ago, if you would have told me people would be doing pitched hi-hat rolls I probably would have laughed. But evidently, someone figured out how to do it.

-People are pitching down 808s almost a full 2 octaves below the normal range. (Khalid/Normani - Love Lies)

-For breakdowns, people are slowing tracks down from 70 BPM to 35 BPM (Jay-Z - Tom Ford)(SZA - Love Galore), (J Cole - Power Trip)

-9 Years ago, Waka Flocka "Hard In Da Paint" shocked people, nobody would've thought to silence the beat for 4 entire bars. Nowadays, people will leave the drums muted for 12-16 bars (Sam Smith - Too Good At Goodbyes, Iggy Azalea - Fancy, Fetty Wap - Trap Queen).
Old 7th April 2019
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren1975 View Post
So it seems the people advising against layering 808s don't actually listen to Rap Music (atleast current rap). This has been very prevalent for the past 5 years.

Layered 808s:
Drake - God's Plan
Cardi B - I Like It
Post Malone - Wow
None of these examples have layered 808, at least distorted in way that it gives such feeling different than clear sine wave. In "WOW" there's a synth going with 808 but it has almost any bass in it.
Old 9th April 2019
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocSlow View Post
None of these examples have layered 808, at least distorted in way that it gives such feeling different than clear sine wave. In "WOW" there's a synth going with 808 but it has almost any bass in it.
Yeah that guy has honestly no idea what he’s talking about. He probably thinks the kick is another 808 being layered because it also has low frequencies. that is not the case at all. And most the time engineers will fix the phasing problems between the 808 and kick, and sometimes they won’t depending on how it sounds.

I think most producers have learned how to manage phasing issues between the kick and 808 unlike back in the day when some zaytoven beats were just terrible sounding. If you want to hear true layering of 808s and bad stuff like that you should listen back to those songs.

But in 2019 most producers know how to get clean sounding mixes and ur most likely not going to get layered 808s or sub frequencies that sound nasty like that. His examples had no such sign of layered 808s.

I actually know for a fact that post Malone’s producer/engineer will Roll off the low end of his synths when the kick and 808s come in, then bring them back when the kick and 808s stop. It’s actually a pretty defined Post Malone sound at this point and happens quite a bit in his music (candy paint is a good example where you can hear it happening clearly). It’s a pretty good trick that is used all over the board in so much music nowadays. It allows you to keep that low end energy present where it otherwise wouldn’t be without the need for 808 or kick. Or some producers might just add a synth with subharmonic frequencies and layer it with their other synths/keys/etc whenever the 808 and kick isn’t present. It a Very popular trick used nowadays.

Also when it’s just the kick alone without any 808 he will add bx_subsynth to get more low frequencie oomph from his kicks while the 808 isn’t present.

there’s some popular producers who do the famous “gliding 808s” which is a popular technique that gained traction a couple years back. Basically the FL studio piano roll gives you the option to slide notes. This means when you overlap some notes a tiny bit it will slide up to the next note rather than just jump to the next note. But this is in no way similar to “layering” 808s and it’s not exactly “polyphonic” either
Old 9th April 2019
  #16
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ill be that guy...

look mate, if you need to layer samples to get the sound you want, then you need to use a better sample to start with lmao.

just saying. laying bass is nice when you are able to eq them so they dont clash... bass and kick, no problem. four 808's all sharing 20-80 hz? lmao ... wtf dude?

In light though, you can layer samples as long as you are controlling the dynamics. I layer two - three kicks, basslines, for example. but each has its own track, each being eqed specifically for its own band of range, they never share the same space.

The only time I layer 808 and kick is for like psytrance or trap, dubstep type ****. I usually hit 125 hz on my kick so they never share the same space. I never layer two or three 808's simply cause I never had a need to do so. I use a good sample and process each sample correctly, gain staged, layered effects yes, but not layed 808's.

I guess you can do it, should one 808 on its own track be at 80 hz and say another target 60 hz and anotehr for 40hz... but each 808's slope would be pretty steep. but something tells me it will sound like ****. Just use one sample, modulate that single sample to sound like you want as if they were the other samples you are trying to layer.
Old 9th April 2019
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natifix View Post
ill be that guy...

look mate, if you need to layer samples to get the sound you want, then you need to use a better sample to start with lmao.

just saying. laying bass is nice when you are able to eq them so they dont clash... bass and kick, no problem. four 808's all sharing 20-80 hz? lmao ... wtf dude?

In light though, you can layer samples as long as you are controlling the dynamics. I layer two - three kicks, basslines, for example. but each has its own track, each being eqed specifically for its own band of range, they never share the same space.

The only time I layer 808 and kick is for like psytrance or trap, dubstep type ****. I usually hit 125 hz on my kick so they never share the same space. I never layer two or three 808's simply cause I never had a need to do so. I use a good sample and process each sample correctly, gain staged, layered effects yes, but not layed 808's.

I guess you can do it, should one 808 on its own track be at 80 hz and say another target 60 hz and anotehr for 40hz... but each 808's slope would be pretty steep. but something tells me it will sound like ****. Just use one sample, modulate that single sample to sound like you want as if they were the other samples you are trying to layer.
A good trick I learned from Jaycen Joshua is he sidechain compresses the lower frequencies of the 808 or bass whenever the kick hits. Lately I've been a bigger fan Trackspacer which can do the same thing but easier and uses a 32 band dynamic EQ that analyzes the frequency spectrum of the sidechain signal instead. It's an amazing plugin and I'd really recommend checking it out.

What I like to do is use Ozone Imager to keep the low frequencies of the bass in mono then spread the mid-higher frequencies, then I keep my whole kick in mono, then when I sidechain with Trackspacer I can choose to only sidechain the low end/mono signal with the kick and bass. This way I don't need to sidechain the mid-high frequencies as well since I spread them with ozone. By doing this you don't need to roll so much lows off your kick since in most trap/hip hop styles they want that low end oomph. I'm sure most people know about his trick by now but some newbies might not. This is the best way to keep all the frequency spectrum of both the kick and 808 without having to EQ off any lows/ mids or highs.

To make it short and simple, basically whats happening is the low end of the bass (which is in mono) is ducking whenever the kick hits (which is also in mono) while the mid-high frequencies of the bass (spread/widened) remains with the mid-high frequencies of the kick (mono)

Only thing I'll say is you need to be careful with the imager to make sure you don't overdue it. I only widen slightly just to get the mid to higher frequencies it out of the way from the kick.

Here is the only video I can find on Youtube that explains it the basic old way of doing it. My way is a lot better to me but any way works better than having the kick and 808 clash.

YouTube
Old 9th April 2019
  #18
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Sidechain is cool, too much and it stands out so much to me, it tends to break up the continuity. I guess it depends on what music ya make, different eq curves and points, layers of effects vary from genre to genre. I make my kicks for dnb or jungle slightly different, but even more different from that of dub techno or electro breaks. I also use Ozone 8 Advanced. Its really powerful.

I prefer to program the kick to hit when the bass is silent or when its in its tail after the initial velocity of the bass hit.

I stick to a few ideals:

separate the bass and kick

make a hole in the bass for the kick

occupy three - four elemtents at any given time, no more

I keep things pretty quite, and only turn things up when I need a surgical listen.

it keeps things simple for me.
Old 9th April 2019
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natifix View Post
Sidechain is cool, too much and it stands out so much to me, it tends to break up the continuity. I guess it depends on what music ya make, different eq curves and points, layers of effects vary from genre to genre. I make my kicks for dnb or jungle slightly different, but even more different from that of dub techno or electro breaks. I also use Ozone 8 Advanced. Its really powerful.

I prefer to program the kick to hit when the bass is silent or when its in its tail after the initial velocity of the bass hit.

I stick to a few ideals:

separate the bass and kick

make a hole in the bass for the kick

occupy three - four elemtents at any given time, no more

I keep things pretty quite, and only turn things up when I need a surgical listen.

it keeps things simple for me.
Clearly didn’t read my post all the way throughout. Yes sidechain sounds funky with kick and 808, that’s why I said the trick jaycen joshua taught us was to only sidechain the lower frequency of the bass. Maybe read my post all the way through as I explain quite in depth what I’m talking about.

And when using trackspacer it’s basically just simpler, quicker, and more organic sounding way of what you do separating the bass and the kick but only in the low frequencies so the mid and high frequencies aren’t being sidechained at all. But the only thing I do that’s different is I use ozone imager to widen the mid to high frequencies of the 808 as well just to move it even further away from the kick.

And by the way, trackspacer actually isn’t sidechain compressing at all. What it’s doing is it’s analyzing the frequency spectrum of the sidechain signal input (in this case the kick) and using 32 bands of dynamic EQ to duck based on the input from the kick. So if the kick has a ton of 60hz and the bass has a ton of 60hz then trackspacer will analyze that and duck 60hz on the bass/808 whenever the kick hits. But it’s 32 bands and it’s bacically AI as it’s analyzing the sidechain input and ducking based on the frequencies that are causing phase issues. You can also control the amount it will duck, you can control the low and high cut of the specific frequency spectrum you want to sidechain, you can control the attack and release, and control whether you want to only sidechain the mid or side. It’s very cool.

it’s a sidechain dynamic EQ, not a compressor. Although this trick works well with sidechain compression as well, I just find trackspacer far more organic sounding with much simpler and quicker control over the sound.
Old 9th April 2019
  #20
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I did read your post all the way through. I just didnt reply on trackspacer because I have never used it... lol

try to not assume what other people do... ? Id appreciate it. After I do some research on what I read in your post, I may form an opinion, but not really till then. Other wise it would be pretty prejudice of me.

Old 9th April 2019
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by natifix View Post
I did read your post all the way through. I just didnt reply on trackspacer because I have never used it... lol

try to not assume what other people do... ? Id appreciate it. After I do some research on what I read in your post, I may form an opinion, but not really till then. Other wise it would be pretty prejudice of me.

Well I’d definitely look into trackspacer it’s extremely handy and saves up a ton of time. It’s way more organic than sidechain compressing and is the best tool I’ve used when trying to handle phasing issues. It works really well with vocal delays as well when using the vocal as the sidechain input. Since it’s not a compressor but a dynamic EQ it’s just reading the input of the sidechain and ducking based on the frequencies that are causing phase issues. But my favorite part of how it works is if I only want to sidechain the lower frequencies of the bass when a kick hits or only sidechain the mid and not the sides I can do that with trackspacer. It’s a really cool plugin.
Old 10th April 2019
  #22
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I’ll go through and chop the kicks and 808s so when the kick ends the 808 starts. Layering gets pretty hairy but a lot of records have a bass and higher bass for presence. I take notes from mike dean (distort the f*ck out of my 808s) and Jaycen Joshua’s manual editing technique (he talks about doing this a lot with mike will’s beats plus treating 808s almost like a guitar ((badass imho)) so yeah).
Old 10th April 2019
  #23
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The way that we were dealing with this in the 90's was just shifting 808s in time around 30-40 ms after the kick (or slightly different timing, depending on the kick's lenght), then compression on bus with these... and basically that's all. You can do just volume automation on the beginning of the 808, same effect, it's that really simple
Old 10th April 2019
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocSlow View Post
The way that we were dealing with this in the 90's was just shifting 808s in time around 30-40 ms after the kick (or slightly different timing, depending on the kick's lenght), then compression on bus with these... and basically that's all. You can do just volume automation on the beginning of the 808, same effect, it's that really simple
This “sounds” easier but is actually very tedious. With the tools we have today and in the day in age where we need to throw together fast mixes I don’t see the point in doing it this way anymore. Using trackspacer, like I was saying, is a way quicker and more natural sounding way to make space for the kick when colliding with an 808. Although trackspacer “sounds” complicated the way it functions, it’s actually really quite simple to operate and saves a lot of time and tedious work you’d have to do otherwise.

In theory considering it’s a sidechain dynamic EQ, it’s really just a faster way of doing what you just said, ducking the 808 when the kick hits. But since it’s analyzing the frequency spectrum of the sidechain input of the kick it’s only ducking the frequencies that are needed to be ducked in relation to the kick. If that makes any sense....

To me this sounds far more natural because ur not really turning down the whole beginning of the 808 or moving it in time, rather just turning down the frequencies that are colliding with the kick using a 32-band dynamic EQ. You should do some research on trackspacer and watch videos on it or read the demo because it could explain it better than I could.

I’m just not the biggest fan of moving an 808 over or cutting or turning down the beginning of it. It just doesn’t sound natural to me whenever I do it that way. There’s a lot of stuff there in the beginning of the 808 that I want to keep which is why I reach for trackspacer just to duck the frequencies needed to duck in relation to the kick. Also, you never really need to duck the mid to higher frequencies of the 808 anyways so turning them down using automation wouldn’t make any sense to me.

trackspacer allows you to low and high cut what you want to sidechain. So basically, I’m only really sidechaining the lower sub frequencies and leaving the mid to high frequencies alone.

But like I said, I’m using ozone imager to spread only the mid to high frequencies of the 808 just to get it a little bit more out the way of the kick, but that’s completely separate from sidechaining with trackspacer. Trackspacer is ONLY being used to sidechain the low end.
Old 11th April 2019
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocSlow View Post
None of these examples have layered 808, at least distorted in way that it gives such feeling different than clear sine wave. In "WOW" there's a synth going with 808 but it has almost any bass in it.
I was thinking the same thing... same with the overlapping poly 808 examples as far as i can tell.
Old 11th April 2019
  #26
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Also I def agree that Trackspacer can be an amazing tool for very precision sidechain dynamic EQing. Way back, there used to be a very similar plug called SpaceBoy; I'd been waiting for years for either an update or someone to recreate a more modern version.. it's about time!
Old 11th April 2019
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atma View Post
Also I def agree that Trackspacer can be an amazing tool for very precision sidechain dynamic EQing. Way back, there used to be a very similar plug called SpaceBoy; I'd been waiting for years for either an update or someone to recreate a more modern version.. it's about time!
By more "modern" what do you mean? I feel like the way it functions is very specific and there isn't really THAT much they can do to improve. At least with the way I use it, I don't really need many more function than it already has. Maybe they could improve the way it reacts when analyzing the sidechain input as well as adding more bands but besides that it works pretty well as it is. I don't use it for anything really besides phase issues with kick and bass, and ducking vocal delays and stuff like that. I guess anything that I need to create space for within the frequency spectrum it works very well in that regard. It's honestly a tool I cant imagine living without as it sounds so natural a lot of times and is very quick and easy to use.
Old 11th April 2019
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodakell View Post
By more "modern" what do you mean? I feel like the way it functions is very specific and there isn't really THAT much they can do to improve. At least with the way I use it, I don't really need many more function than it already has. Maybe they could improve the way it reacts when analyzing the sidechain input as well as adding more bands but besides that it works pretty well as it is. I don't use it for anything really besides phase issues with kick and bass, and ducking vocal delays and stuff like that. I guess anything that I need to create space for within the frequency spectrum it works very well in that regard. It's honestly a tool I cant imagine living without as it sounds so natural a lot of times and is very quick and easy to use.
No, sorry—I was referring to the ancient "SpaceBoy" plug, which was the exact same concept as TrackSpacer, it's just been discontinued and is fairly archaic, so I was saying I've been waiting for years for someone to make a modern version of it (i.e., TrackSpacer).
Old 12th April 2019
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodakell View Post
This “sounds” easier but is actually very tedious. With the tools we have today and in the day in age where we need to throw together fast mixes I don’t see the point in doing it this way anymore. Using trackspacer, like I was saying, is a way quicker and more natural sounding way to make space for the kick when colliding with an 808
No offence but your posts about this VST sounds like they were sponsored or something. Why does it sound tedious? For me this VST sounds too complicated or overthought - what's the purpose of making space for the kick cutting bass from the 808 and leaving mid's and highs frequencies which theoretically are at least a few % of the whole 808 sample? Even if this is hardly distorted 808, leaving mid's and highs while kick hits will make it sounds sh**ty, as these frequencies might (and they usually will) clash with the kick - even if they're OK by the phase, their presence will make kick sounds quieter and less dominant after any compression, eg after mastering. Its usually better for kick just leaving whole available space in 808 (frequencies + any amplitudes, to a complete silence) than making some unnecessary things with some strange plugins, seriously.

-doc
Old 12th April 2019
  #30
DAH
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I doubt all the golden hits used any of that ducking ****.
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