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Damn ! How to get kicks like these ? Hitmaka,Jeremih,Chris Brown Studio Monitors
Old 11th June 2018
  #1
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Thread Starter
Damn ! How to get kicks like these ? Hitmaka,Jeremih,Chris Brown

I have been literally freaking out from last two days.Kicks on these songs are so loud ,"In your face" , and the body and the punch etc. I would really love to learn from knowledgeable people here about how I can get close to kicks like these?

Things I have already done -
1) Used these tracks as reference tracks and tried to achieve the same sound in different frequency regions . Like divided 0-100Hz,200-500Hz,500hz-16k and tried to replicate the the same punch. Failed miserably.
2) Layered my kicks.
3) Used compression,Transient Designers , Added saturation but I was just messing around and firing in the dark.

I really love this community. You people are awesome.

Here are the links to the songs.
Cards Right - Jeremih



Old 11th June 2018
  #2
Gear Maniac
 

You'll probably get better / more constructive advice if you post clips of what your kicks are sounding like now, but the one thing that I don't see in #3 is "EQ". Experiment with subtractive EQ to make sure nothing is competing in the same frequency ranges as your kick samples (not just in the overall arrangement of the track, but also within any layered samples you're using), and then use an EQ to boost certain thump ranges on top of that.
Old 11th June 2018
  #3
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Thread Starter
I forgot to mention that but yes I tried subtractive eq and also make sure that layered drums are not occupying the same frequency region.
I took three kicks and assigned them 0-100,100-250,-250-16k frequency regions respectively.
I want to know if there are any other techniques which I am not aware about or should I focus my energy on achieving the results using methods I have mentioned in my post.
But That kick though in Jeremih track :(
I am obsessed.
Old 11th June 2018
  #4
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I can easily get kicks that loud. The question is do I WANT them that loud. The kick on the Jeremih song is pretty insane and I personally would not mix a kick that loud unless the client forced me to. You'll notice also that there clearly were issues in mastering because when the track gets really dense and there's a lot more low and low-mid info coming in, the kick comes down a lot more. I wasn't there, but I suspect in mastering it was causing too much distortion which is a problem with the longer wave lengths. The Chris Brown track the kick doesn't seem so crazy.

Main thing about getting loud kicks without causing major problems in mastering is 1) don't go stoooopid on the low end and make sure there's plenty upper mids/high end and plenty of attack. 2) put a limiter or clipper of some kind on them so that at least you have control over how things distort (and make it an unnoticeable, or at least pleasing, way) so that in mastering the kick won't cause other instruments (like the bassline) to distort when it hits. There's lots of other things you can do to help, but those are probably the biggest.
Old 11th June 2018
  #5
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The key to this stuff has nothing to do with the B.S cut n' boost BS all the kids talk about.

It is rooted in music theory and arrangement, hint: It starts with the key to your song and making sure that key leaves bass and kick frequencies that work well together to begin with, you don't torture them int shape with a digital eq after the fact ewww!

Your going nowhere until you start tuning your drums and understanding that having a "Massive kick" is mostly caused by there being NOTHING ELSE HAPPENING WHEN IT HITS,
Old 11th June 2018
  #6
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FreshProduce's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rameet47 View Post
I forgot to mention that but yes I tried subtractive eq and also make sure that layered drums are not occupying the same frequency region.
I am obsessed.
Sooo what exactly did you do in terms of subtractive EQ specifically under 100 Hz? (where it matters most)
Old 11th June 2018
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
The key to this stuff has nothing to do with the B.S cut n' boost BS all the kids talk about.

It is rooted in music theory and arrangement, hint: It starts with the key to your song and making sure that key leaves bass and kick frequencies that work well together to begin with, you don't torture them int shape with a digital eq after the fact ewww!
Sounds like great advice in theory, pretty much non-applicable in practice.

If you're layering sampled kicks there's a 90% chance you'll have unwanted harmonic overlap that needs to be addressed or things aren't going to sound as tight as they could.

The arrangement is definitely important (this is why I asked to actually hear the track in context), but if your kick doesn't even sound right soloed the lightest arrangement in the world isn't going to help any.
Old 11th June 2018
  #8
Gear Nut
You guys are working too hard. Way back when we would just sample kiks/snrs off instrumentals of records that were out, that we liked. We would also solo’d drum hits, from the 2”, off finished projects. For the past decade there have been a bunch of seriously great hip hop drum sound collections on the market. All processed and ready to go.
Old 12th June 2018
  #9
Gear Nut
choose the right sound, parallell it, also midrange stuff, the punch doesn't just come from bass it comes from hearing the sounds clearly so clear the midrange, eq the musical instruments to sound good but get out of the kicks way, but dont make things sound dead, compression can sound good too, fast attack (not on the kick on the other sounds), you really have to experiment w random ass frequencies, and balance your kick n bass so that u clearly hear what you like from the kick sound, usually then the bass will sound too low, so work the sounds around the kick until it sounds good
Old 13th June 2018
  #10
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
I can easily get kicks that loud. The question is do I WANT them that loud. The kick on the Jeremih song is pretty insane and I personally would not mix a kick that loud unless the client forced me to. You'll notice also that there clearly were issues in mastering because when the track gets really dense and there's a lot more low and low-mid info coming in, the kick comes down a lot more. I wasn't there, but I suspect in mastering it was causing too much distortion which is a problem with the longer wave lengths. The Chris Brown track the kick doesn't seem so crazy.

Main thing about getting loud kicks without causing major problems in mastering is 1) don't go stoooopid on the low end and make sure there's plenty upper mids/high end and plenty of attack. 2) put a limiter or clipper of some kind on them so that at least you have control over how things distort (and make it an unnoticeable, or at least pleasing, way) so that in mastering the kick won't cause other instruments (like the bassline) to distort when it hits. There's lots of other things you can do to help, but those are probably the biggest.
True I noticed the same thing. There were issues when a alot of low mid info started coming in.
Can you please elaborate your 2nd point ?
Putting a limiter on the kick bus ? I was in notion that limiter should only be used for getting that loudness on master bus.
Old 13th June 2018
  #11
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshProduce View Post
Sooo what exactly did you do in terms of subtractive EQ specifically under 100 Hz? (where it matters most)
I will definitely put up the kick I have achieved once I am back in the studio.
In terms of eq I tried to sweep around the region with a medium Q and found the pleasant and unpleasant frequencies .. Boosted and subtracted them respectively.

Do you think that lack of referencing ( using Adam a5x & KRK KNS 8400 headphones) is hindering my progress?
I am totally in a notion that equipment matters a lot but I don't want to limit myself and give myself an excuse for not working hard. That's why I rely heavily on reference tracks.
Old 13th June 2018
  #12
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They're both simple Roland 808 kicks, tuned right around the middle with the release set long and attack short. They're actually both the same kick at the source, so good ear there, be proud of that. The first one sounds like there is a deep sine wave sub bass note tuned to it, but not that loud. It's also compressed slightly but overdriven, probably by Schepp's 1073 model by Waves or similar. The second video is the same 808 kick, it's simply compressed with a little analog grit. The reason they're so in your face is because they're both turned up rather loud in the mix, and slightly distorted/overdriven, probably with a Neve-ish preamp modeling plugin. Not really EQd at all except for the attack and release settings on the 808. Most rap kicks are based around the 808 kick, and layered from there with things like floor stomps, real kick drums, any percussive or sub bass sound cut short really. Not too difficult once you get yourself a good 808 model. Propellorhead RB338 Rebirth was the best software 808 I've found. But the Roland GrooveSynth DX has all those sounds as well, but you can't tune them or sequence the beats the same way as ReBirth.

<mod snip>

Last edited by Bender412; 13th June 2018 at 06:00 PM.. Reason: Not the place to solicit services
Old 13th June 2018
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rameet47 View Post
I forgot to mention that but yes I tried subtractive eq and also make sure that layered drums are not occupying the same frequency region.
I took three kicks and assigned them 0-100,100-250,-250-16k frequency regions respectively.
I want to know if there are any other techniques which I am not aware about or should I focus my energy on achieving the results using methods I have mentioned in my post.
But That kick though in Jeremih track :(
I am obsessed.
The videos you posted had other sounds over it, but this is the backbone sound you want, no?

Old 17th June 2018
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rameet47 View Post
True I noticed the same thing. There were issues when a alot of low mid info started coming in.
Can you please elaborate your 2nd point ?
Putting a limiter on the kick bus ? I was in notion that limiter should only be used for getting that loudness on master bus.
You can put limiters on anything. As long as you don't do it for a stupid reason or in a way that makes things sound worse, then it's fair game.
Old 17th June 2018
  #15
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Owen L T's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rameet47 View Post

Do you think that lack of referencing ( using Adam a5x & KRK KNS 8400 headphones) is hindering my progress?
I have the A5Xs myself, and while I like their overall sound, they do start to roll off noticeably somewhere around 60Hz - enough so that, down around 40Hz, they really aren't letting you hear what's going on. That's important for a couple reasons: (1) You can properly hear how loud the sub energy is in things like an 808, which have a lot of energy in that region; (2) You can't properly hear how LONG your kick is sustaining. Things like an 808 have a pitch decay envelope, which starts high, and ends up low. Frequently, very low. If you have speakers that themselves roll of up around 60, then you're not really hearing the tail of that kick. The envelope of kicks like these is a hugely important component of the sound.

And that's why I would up getting a Sub 7, as well, so I could actually hear that bottom octave.

As for layering of kicks: yeah, a lot of people do it. But the people who are good enough to do it really well can also get a single kick drum sounding pretty awesome; meanwhile, if you start trying to construct your kick out of three separate layers, and particularly if your monitors aren't quite full range, then you're more likely to introduce phase cancellation issues than to wind up with an awesome kick.

That said, there is a lot of mileage to be had from a 2-layer approach: a kick-synth bottom end (Sonic Adaemy's "Kick 2" or D16 Group's "Punch Box" spring to mind) that allows you to tightly construct and control the bottom end, plus a sample that has the character of everything that happens above 200Hz.

I think of it this way: if you take a mix, and put a 24dB/octave low-pass filter on it at 200Hz, then what you hear is ... a bunch of low end. But here's the thing: for the most part, you can hear how MUCH the kick and/or bass are walloping out at 50-100Hz, but the character of that low end - at least to me - is much harder to determine. Hi-pass a kick at 100Hz, and you can hear right away the difference between an acoustic kick and an 808. Low-pass that same kick at 100Hz ... not so much.

Hence why a kick-synth for the bottom, plus a sample for the top (which you can hi-pass pretty brutally, to make sure it does nothing to mess with your low end) makes a lot of sense, and is unlikely to cause the kinds of issues that can happen when you try to hi-pass and low-pass multiple intersecting kick layers.

None of those are Words of Wisdom - it's just what I've found, so far, on my own journey.
Old 17th June 2018
  #16
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atma's Avatar
 

For technical low-end stuff, I actually prefer using really good headphones with Sonarworks Reference for correction/sub bass extension. Easier than dealing with a sub in most cases (if your room isn't exceptionally well bass-trapped, or it's simply a small space, etc.; it's fairly difficult to even get near an accurate sub bass response).

With my HD-800s (with Reference), I get a very flat response and extreme bass extension down towards 20hz, with no room reflections or interference.
Old 1 week ago
  #17
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ChaChaMalone's Avatar
These records are mixed by Jaycen Joshua. He is the king of knock and low end. He's mixed some records I've produced and I must say, it's pretty difficult to get the drums knocking like this without his ear and access to his outboard equipment. Lavry Gold converters, Drums ran through vintage Neve 1073's, Blueface 1176 for parallel comping the drum bus, UAD shadow hills mastering compressor. With some of these listed, on my mixes, I've gotten close but not quite there. Cutting and boosting, transient designers are fundamental, but will not get you the punch you're looking for without the right distortion. Study Jaycen. He leaves clues on his instagram, pensado's place interviews, etc.
Old 1 week ago
  #18
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ChaChaMalone's Avatar
Also, the right samples to begin with, are important too!

Peace
Old 1 week ago
  #19
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Easy truly does it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaChaMalone View Post
These records are mixed by Jaycen Joshua. He is the king of knock and low end. He's mixed some records I've produced and I must say, it's pretty difficult to get the drums knocking like this without his ear and access to his outboard equipment. Lavry Gold converters, Drums ran through vintage Neve 1073's, Blueface 1176 for parallel comping the drum bus, UAD shadow hills mastering compressor. With some of these listed, on my mixes, I've gotten close but not quite there. Cutting and boosting, transient designers are fundamental, but will not get you the punch you're looking for without the right distortion. Study Jaycen. He leaves clues on his instagram, pensado's place interviews, etc.
Man, I can make kicks like that with just Logic's plugins and samples grabbed from Splice and make them sound as good if not better in the mix. You can use whatever gear you want, I would not make it that complicated if unnecessary.
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