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Do today's hip hop instrumentals even require mixing? Metering & Analysis Plugins
Old 18th December 2016
  #1
Gear Head
 

Do today's hip hop instrumentals even require mixing?

It seems that the beats that become popular and the beatmakers which are most successful for Internet sales know very little about mixing! One popular youtube producer claimed "I don't use eq nothing like that" and it got me thinking that the average listener seems to prefer a raw sounding mix where the 808 is way too loud and all over the place for example. It also seems that the louder drums are, the more successful beats are. Some are ear piercing and you can barely hear the melody underneath!

I thought I would try and do as little as possible to my mixes after coming to this realisation but I just can't do that. I'm quite an advanced mix engineer these days and can get a crispy clean mix but somehow I think that lowers sale possibility in today's community. Leaving it 'unmixed' is just too difficult to do though when you've learnt how to mix properly.

Thoughts?
Old 18th December 2016
  #2
Gear Maniac
 

I think this is because a lot of the vsts deliver sounds that already mixed and sound great at least as far as eq and compression. When I use nexus or kontakt the only thing I do is add gain and maybe some parallel distortion.
Old 18th December 2016
  #3
Gear Head
 
Tempertemper's Avatar
 

That's horrible to hear and quite disturbing. It's almost a paint by numbers scenario smfh.
Old 18th December 2016
  #4
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempertemper View Post
It's almost a paint by numbers scenario smfh.
Heh.... almost?

See: EDM

It IS paint by numbers. But you have to look good and be popular on social media, there's the rub.
Old 18th December 2016
  #5
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempertemper View Post
That's horrible to hear and quite disturbing. It's almost a paint by numbers scenario smfh.
It's very frustrating. I do a clean mix and I'm like mann it sounds too clean. Then I try and scale it back a bit but I just can't take it being muddy. The average listener seems to hear a horribly distorted really loud 808 and they're like "ooh this sh*t bangs!"
Old 18th December 2016
  #6
Gear Head
 
Tempertemper's Avatar
 

That's why it's so difficult, for me at least, to get mix clients because everyone think they are adept at it. Not trying to knock the person that is really trying to learn how to tweak frequencies, but to the poser that diminishes this craft. The music business is a tougher nut now....
Old 19th December 2016
  #7
Lives for gear
Of course, this all depends on what your mixes sound like.... your taste might not be the same as someone else's and your idea of a killer hip-hop mix might be outside the mainstream.
Old 19th December 2016
  #8
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
Of course, this all depends on what your mixes sound like.... your taste might not be the same as someone else's and your idea of a killer hip-hop mix might be outside the mainstream.
Thanks for reiterating what I just said...
Old 19th December 2016
  #9
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PettyCash's Avatar
 

Unfortunately, "advanced mixing engineers" often tend to "over think" their mix and get the vibe of it completely wrong, because they're more focused on using every single technique that they know on a single mix in order to make things sound right to them from a "technical" standpoint, so they can go off and pat themselves on the back for a job well done, rather than focusing on doing a mix that actually reaches out "emotionally" to its listeners. The beats that are going to draw the most attention are the ones that get people moving/rapping the moment they hear them. A simple, raw "fader mix" can sometimes yield better results than having some "mix engineer" who doesn't know what they're doing beat the pulp out of stuff that doesn't need much treatment in the first place, thus destroying the sound of the beat out of sheer ignorance. Once an actual song gets recorded, a more in-depth mixing job can be done, but before that, the approach should be to mix for the vibe and feel of the track.

If the rhythm is the star of the instrumental, the drums and maybe the bass should be the most upfront elements in the mix, especially if the rest of the music isn't really doing anything that suggests it needs to even be prominent, which in that case you would put those even further back in the mix, because when the artist(s) hop onto the track, that stuff is only going to be there to lightly support the vocals and rhythm elements, and should be used to create a greater sense of depth in the track, rather than pushed more upfront as something integral and make the mix sound more crowded than it should be.

Also, the one thing I can't stand seeing with some people is how little they think of the average listener when it comes to judging things from a sonic standpoint. Most people have the ability to tell a really good mix from a really bad one. Where things get lost is with the stuff that falls into the middle... average mixes that aren't doing anything special aside from trying to balance all the elements in the mix to achieve a clean, basic sound. Sometimes the moment a listener hears something peak out of a decent mix like that in an unconventional way (the drums being a little more loud and punchy, in a way that flatters the vibe of the beat), their ear gets immediately drawn to it because it sounds different than the last few beats that they listened to where everything was balanced in a bland sort of way. A basic, clean mix sets up the foundation for you to get creative and unconventional and start breaking some rules, if you want the stuff that you mix to standout from all the other average mixes. This is where "advanced mix engineers" graduate into being "mindfully useful" mixing engineers. That could just be my opinion of it though.
Old 19th December 2016
  #10
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PettyCash View Post
Unfortunately, "advanced mixing engineers" often tend to "over think" their mix and get the vibe of it completely wrong, because they're more focused on using every single technique that they know on a single mix in order to make things sound right to them from a "technical" standpoint, so they can go off and pat themselves on the back for a job well done, rather than focusing on doing a mix that actually reaches out "emotionally" to its listeners. The beats that are going to draw the most attention are the ones that get people moving/rapping the moment they hear them. A simple, raw "fader mix" can sometimes yield better results than having some "mix engineer" who doesn't know what they're doing beat the pulp out of stuff that doesn't need much treatment in the first place, thus destroying the sound of the beat out of sheer ignorance. Once an actual song gets recorded, a more in-depth mixing job can be done, but before that, the approach should be to mix for the vibe and feel of the track.

If the rhythm is the star of the instrumental, the drums and maybe the bass should be the most upfront elements in the mix, especially if the rest of the music isn't really doing anything that suggests it needs to even be prominent, which in that case you would put those even further back in the mix, because when the artist(s) hop onto the track, that stuff is only going to be there to lightly support the vocals and rhythm elements, and should be used to create a greater sense of depth in the track, rather than pushed more upfront as something integral and make the mix sound more crowded than it should be.

Also, the one thing I can't stand seeing with some people is how little they think of the average listener when it comes to judging things from a sonic standpoint. Most people have the ability to tell a really good mix from a really bad one. Where things get lost is with the stuff that falls into the middle... average mixes that aren't doing anything special aside from trying to balance all the elements in the mix to achieve a clean, basic sound. Sometimes the moment a listener hears something peak out of a decent mix like that in an unconventional way (the drums being a little more loud and punchy, in a way that flatters the vibe of the beat), their ear gets immediately drawn to it because it sounds different than the last few beats that they listened to where everything was balanced in a bland sort of way. A basic, clean mix sets up the foundation for you to get creative and unconventional and start breaking some rules, if you want the stuff that you mix to standout from all the other average mixes. This is where "advanced mix engineers" graduate into being "mindfully useful" mixing engineers. That could just be my opinion of it though.
nah i do agree with you. i used to be like that about two years ago.. try and throw every plugin under the sun on every sound. I'll admit i do like the kind of raw, only leveled mixes. While they dont hit as hard as they could and not all the sounds are completely distinguishable, they do sound very full. That is kind of the modern hip hop vibe as you said. I think what I'm trying to say is that it's difficult to not get all OCD and leave the mix like that, knowing that 'technically' it could be better. I guess the great mix engineers know when to leave things alone though.
Old 19th December 2016
  #11
Lives for gear
 

A producer probably wont eq as to leave it for people like me to mix it. I mixed alot of songs that needed lots of eq on instrumentation and having nothing eqed is best. Nothing needs to be eqd unless it needs too be eqd. I mixed Alot of Atlanta artists songs from r&b to rap and Alot of beats are not eqd, compressed as to leave that to the mix engineer.
Old 19th December 2016
  #12
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PettyCash's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by diaz209 View Post
nah i do agree with you. i used to be like that about two years ago.. try and throw every plugin under the sun on every sound. I'll admit i do like the kind of raw, only leveled mixes. While they dont hit as hard as they could and not all the sounds are completely distinguishable, they do sound very full. That is kind of the modern hip hop vibe as you said. I think what I'm trying to say is that it's difficult to not get all OCD and leave the mix like that, knowing that 'technically' it could be better. I guess the great mix engineers know when to leave things alone though.
One of the most important lessons I've learnt when it comes to mixing is that what you don't do can be just as important, if not more important as what you decide to do on any given mix. It's way too easy to over think stuff and do things that aren't actually necessary because they seem like common practice.

The approach I like to take to avoid that is to focus on cleaning up all the obvious things first for each track, then work on "massaging" each sound "in context" of the full beat until I achieve something that starts to sound "groovy" lol, then from there I continue onward by incorporating further enhancements that reinforce that current feel and add some more polish to the sound of the beat.
Old 19th December 2016
  #13
Lives for gear
I will be honest, I have been writing live instrumental jazz/hip hop with sampled drums and I never mix anymore beside high passing. It doesn't come out as clean as a beat that has been mulled over and processed to death, but it also makes things all about creating the music instead about engineering and mixing.

I think you have to draw a line in the sand and decide what you want to be. Not saying people can't be engineers and make hot beats too, but it makes sense for me to put all my energy into one thing and then if I have fire, I can let somebody else handle the mix.
Old 19th December 2016
  #14
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
I will be honest, I have been writing live instrumental jazz/hip hop with sampled drums and I never mix anymore beside high passing. It doesn't come out as clean as a beat that has been mulled over and processed to death, but it also makes things all about creating the music instead about engineering and mixing.

I think you have to draw a line in the sand and decide what you want to be. Not saying people can't be engineers and make hot beats too, but it makes sense for me to put all my energy into one thing and then if I have fire, I can let somebody else handle the mix.
Yeah it's easy to forget that electronic samples sound the way they do because they've been mixed and created by someone else before they found themselves in your library. I try to keep it instilled in my brain that I chose to use a certain Snare sample for example because I liked the sound of it when I played it. So why change it?
Old 19th December 2016
  #15
Gear Addict
 
Dimmy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by diaz209 View Post
a raw sounding mix where the 808 is way too loud and all over the place for example.


Quote:
It also seems that the louder drums are, the more


Quote:
ear piercing and you can barely hear the melody underneath!


Quote:
Thoughts?
Old 19th December 2016
  #16
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by diaz209 View Post
It seems that the beats that become popular and the beatmakers which are most successful for Internet sales know very little about mixing! One popular youtube producer claimed "I don't use eq nothing like that"
Yeah, but you're talking about internet beats and youtube producers... 99% of those beats won't be mixed at all.
So it's not like a beat buyer has the choice like, "shall I buy the super clear mixed beat... or the raw, unmixed beat?" because they're almost ALL unmixed. They're not choosing to buy unmixed beats instead of mixed ones... unmixed beats are pretty much the only beats they can get.

They will just go with whatever they think sounds the coolest from the few beats they check out online... and they will usually just check out whoever has the best promotion because those will be the first ones they come across.

Anything actually popular, like "on the radio, on a major label" popular has been mixed and most listeners prefer the mixed records, but they don't have access to that kind of mixing for their own projects.
Old 19th December 2016
  #17
Lives for gear
 

The Digital era has changed things a lot in regards to properly mixed instrumental beat tracks and I'm noticing that the majority newer generation isn't as particular as the older veterans in the business. I still feel that some degree of mixing instrumentals is a necessity but of course Alot of the Music heard today and especially beats are played/streamed online and I rarely see artist's who purchase the beats caring about the level of the mix besides asking for it to be louder. Most don't understand the difference of the beat being compressed, individual tracks being processed with various Vst's or possibly don't care. Many are just asking can you make a beat like 'this famous rapper' or ' that famous rapper'..etc.

I believe that displaying beats online for streams licensing possibilities should have a mandate towards some form of a mix. An over abundance of Distorted beats don't sell.!

Last edited by ANR2011; 19th December 2016 at 08:58 PM..
Old 19th December 2016
  #18
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boombapdame's Avatar
@ANR2011 who are/were Hip Hop producers who didn't/don't mix super loud?
Old 19th December 2016
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
@ANR2011 who are/were Hip Hop producers who didn't/don't mix super loud?
There were plenty from the 80's and 90's generation of Hip hop songs that weren't mix super loud..actually to much to mention really. As for selling their beats alone I really don't know because that goes to who ever wanted beats in the pre production stages.

For most seasoned Producer's out their most understand Beats that Distorted oppose to mixed louder there is a difference. For those who don't the Engineers who work on their tracks when a beat is being Remixed for the artist's vocals usually ask for nonprocessed stems of the beat for a proper mix.
Old 19th December 2016
  #20
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Antagonist's Avatar
That's why music is dispensable these days... FYI any good producer I've ever bought tracks from has sent me a fully mixed beat as well as stems that I can mix myself. I would never spend money on a beat that was just "Thrown together" online quickly. Listen to any "major" project and everything tends to be balanced, even most mixtapes are mixed well these days... atleast better than they were 5-10 years ago. I refuse to downgrade my product to appease the limited attention span of the average listener today. I'd rather put my best foot forward on every track, beat, or song I release...whether it takes longer or not.
Old 20th December 2016
  #21
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3rd Degree's Avatar
 

What range are we talking about? I know you can sell an instrumental however many times by "leasing" it but plenty do a good job of creating a good product. I don't agree with the model, per say, but if I know people are spending $10 or less, I wouldn't mix my beats down the same way I do for the work I get.

On the flip side, not processing very much isn't a bad thing when the results sound good. I personally don't use 808 or do "modern" rap/hip hop but if it sounds good, it sounds good. No need to fine polish it here, especially if you don't have the monitors and room to get it perfect. I know cats who mixed off Koss headphones and though not perfect, it still sounded great in my last 3, home built but purpose built studios. Now I am on headphones and I might get 80% at best of what I used to mix at and nobody misses it really. The 20% isn't lack of something contributing to the instrumental, I do that the same way, just talking about the mix alone. Some sound really good on reference though, I don't trust my low end, I don't trust my extreme highs, and it sounds balanced, the music is more important than the mix, and it wouldn't be hard to correct in a better room, I just don't have that anymore.

Some of the favorite versions of the songs I got on are the rough. They are just leveled and not polished but have a raw feel I like, mixed with my instrumental, cleared of FX, only leveling. It doesn't translate well to everything (and moreo everybody) but I like the sound.

However, at the end of the day, if it's a cat just doing his thing, cool. He may have 100,000 of views or much more and it's not clean enough. That's not what everyone loves. At the same time, even there, it's not direct and easy to monetize so just because someone has a following, doesn't mean they are doing it right or wrong, they just have people who feel what they do (which I think is WAY more right than wrong).
Old 20th December 2016
  #22
Lives for gear
I think 3rd Degree brings up a good point: we need some perspective here. What are you considering “bad” mixing and what do your “good” mixes sound like. Are we talking night and day? Or are we talking subtle. Plus, as I mentioned before, “good” is in the eye of the beholder and we are often lousy judges of our own work.

I can say that there are a number of ‘beatmakers’ that I mix for somewhat regularly and I know for a fact from them that when I mix their stuff it sells better. Granted, usually they save their best beats for me to mix and just mix their so-so beats themselves. But other times I know they put a beat up for sale/lease and then later asked me to mix it and it sells better after I’ve mixed it. Granted, it’s not exactly a massive sample size for data collection, but the entire data set tells me that the same beat mixed better sell better – even to these kids that are just hobbyists where the quality of the mix isn’t that critical to the end product that will only be heard by a few friends and their parents.

It’s also worth keeping another perspective and that is that the song is almost always more important than anything else. Then it’s the performance. After that the production. And after that, the mix. A dope beat with a crappy mix will ALWAYS outsell a crappy beat with a dope mix. So if you compare average beats with dope mixes to dope beats with crappy mixes and come away with the conclusion that crappy mixes sell better, well there’s a flaw in your scientific methodology.
Old 21st December 2016
  #23
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PettyCash's Avatar
 

His perspective can be understood by focusing on the original post.

Quote:
808 is way too loud and all over the place
Quote:
Some are ear piercing and you can barely hear the melody underneath!
Quote:
It seems that the beats that become popular and the beatmakers which are most successful for Internet sales know very little about mixing!
Quote:
One popular youtube producer claimed "I don't use eq nothing like that"
Those being said, if we knew what level of online beat markers (the range) he was specifically referring to, it would allow us the opportunity to come up with our own perspectives, based on what we consider "good" to be. Regardless though, per the topic of the thread, the point still stands that the most technically sound mix, isn't always going to be representative of what beats end up being the most popular online. Lots of other factors come into play, and that's all we have to keep in mind.
Old 21st December 2016
  #24
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3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Well, both Chris and Petty Cash are on point, IMO, in different ways. I am not even going to discount the $10 beat in terms of melodic/musical quality. I feel old but I have been around long enough to know when this first started. The idea was, buy this beat super cheap, and at that time, people would purposely either not mix, or degrade the quality for the person who simply couldn't afford a regular beat and a decent price, but were willing to pay to get something. I have clients who are very talented who buy "leases" but it's just to inspire them to write, before committing to a larger price point. It's kind of similar to record digging, it's going to take you quite some time to find something even worth buying, but you may find a gem to write to.

That said, for $10, or $25, or anything that won't pay a bill, IMO, you should likely not take the time to mix. I get the premise that you can sell one $10 beat 200x and make more than an "exclusive" on the same/similar site but most people don't get there. From a business perspective, I think it makes little sense of giving a great product at that type of price point. How do you sell for more when you cheap is more than good enough for most? I know most people are not happy about getting a 2 track MP3 to mix down but look at the board, look how many people are now actually paying good money to mix down something that really was never intended on that.

The game is saturated there so I get trying to get whatever advantage you can get but the old school guy in me still thinks about it like this. If it's worth paying $200-800 on the regular to mix, I don't want to be the guy who sold you on my quality when you are willing to pay someone else much more to mix it down. I mean, people are paying studio time, and a mixing engineer (and possibly mastering), doing a video, etc, over these tracks. I don't lease but if I did, I want you to pay me too.

My point is I don't always consider the cheap beat game to be totally amateur BS, there is a lot of it, but some people do make good music. Should you be mixing it or doing all you can to get a sale, not IMO, it's volume based, make something else rather than mixing. If it is something quality enough that for an indie rate, the person who "leased" it from you can actually make something of quality, what is next?

I know I am coming more from a business perspective but I remember a time when that was precisely the point of what I am talking about. When you get into though thousands, different story. The music is going to sell itself better (or worse) than the mix but it shows attention to detail. For myself, mixing my beats (lets assume it was one of my last spots), it's not just to get it to sound better, it is to impart my own style on it as well. If you ever catch me with a $10 or $50 price tag on my own joints, best believe I didn't put much time into mixing it, I just can't work for subminimum wage. If I was actually selling 30,000+ on one beat, I may have a different opinion but I know what goes into that, which is an pretty extensive promo machine which isn't quick, easy, nor free.
Old 21st December 2016
  #25
Here for the gear
Making the drums louder is part of the mixing process. Setting your levels on every instrument is also part of mixing.

But if you're talking about using raw samples and not putting any effects on them, yes, many times the instrument samples are ready to go AS IS. Not much tweaking.

Many times if a hip hop client has a problem with their kick, it's not even worth trying to EQ/compress it. Just get a better kick sample that works well with the song.
Old 21st December 2016
  #26
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
Well, both Chris and Petty Cash are on point, IMO, in different ways. I am not even going to discount the $10 beat in terms of melodic/musical quality. I feel old but I have been around long enough to know when this first started. The idea was, buy this beat super cheap, and at that time, people would purposely either not mix, or degrade the quality for the person who simply couldn't afford a regular beat and a decent price, but were willing to pay to get something. I have clients who are very talented who buy "leases" but it's just to inspire them to write, before committing to a larger price point. It's kind of similar to record digging, it's going to take you quite some time to find something even worth buying, but you may find a gem to write to.

That said, for $10, or $25, or anything that won't pay a bill, IMO, you should likely not take the time to mix. I get the premise that you can sell one $10 beat 200x and make more than an "exclusive" on the same/similar site but most people don't get there. From a business perspective, I think it makes little sense of giving a great product at that type of price point. How do you sell for more when you cheap is more than good enough for most? I know most people are not happy about getting a 2 track MP3 to mix down but look at the board, look how many people are now actually paying good money to mix down something that really was never intended on that.

The game is saturated there so I get trying to get whatever advantage you can get but the old school guy in me still thinks about it like this. If it's worth paying $200-800 on the regular to mix, I don't want to be the guy who sold you on my quality when you are willing to pay someone else much more to mix it down. I mean, people are paying studio time, and a mixing engineer (and possibly mastering), doing a video, etc, over these tracks. I don't lease but if I did, I want you to pay me too.

My point is I don't always consider the cheap beat game to be totally amateur BS, there is a lot of it, but some people do make good music. Should you be mixing it or doing all you can to get a sale, not IMO, it's volume based, make something else rather than mixing. If it is something quality enough that for an indie rate, the person who "leased" it from you can actually make something of quality, what is next?

I know I am coming more from a business perspective but I remember a time when that was precisely the point of what I am talking about. When you get into though thousands, different story. The music is going to sell itself better (or worse) than the mix but it shows attention to detail. For myself, mixing my beats (lets assume it was one of my last spots), it's not just to get it to sound better, it is to impart my own style on it as well. If you ever catch me with a $10 or $50 price tag on my own joints, best believe I didn't put much time into mixing it, I just can't work for subminimum wage. If I was actually selling 30,000+ on one beat, I may have a different opinion but I know what goes into that, which is an pretty extensive promo machine which isn't quick, easy, nor free.
You made some good point's. As for me there is no way I'm selling a beat for $10 or $50 because I feel that I'm wasting my time and don't respect my craft even with the over saturation of the Beat sales business. Where is the integrity in using the term business when I'm practically giving work away? I also don't believe in selling beats that haven't been mixed to a potential level of being played to a listening audience because more times then less the average listener will look up the Producer's name for credit on the track (the majority of listener's don't understand the difference of a Producer or Engineer) so the Engineers don't get blamed for the backlash of a bad mix. This can once again ruin potential business from Professional talented clients on buying/licensing future production. So it's better to for the Beat Maker/Producer to put their best foot forward at all times for integrity purposes as a Professional. If they are a hobbyist. .then it really doesn't matter.

Last edited by ANR2011; 22nd December 2016 at 02:57 AM.. Reason: Typo
Old 21st December 2016
  #27
Lives for gear
 

Well.

Typically the heavy hitter producers i have mixed beats require very little mixing tbh…the right sounds and the right arrangements and the right key (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Pitch your f'nn sounds right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) everything should kind of fall in place without anything too drastic happening from a technical standpoint…and that pretty much holds true from guys i know that are/were still using SP's 950's and dusty records up to kids using FL and Nexus.

While i agree that a whole lot of people (particularly this generation who was raised strictly on internet videos---internet interns) "over engineer" frequently i would apply the term "advanced engineers" to people who actually know how to make the song sound & feel the best it can, not just a trigger happy engineer with a lot of plugins

So do instrumentals require mixing? If they're going to be released as instrumentals probably yes, I would…or if the producer is really bad at arrangement, is tone deaf and/or doesn't understand some very basic technical stuff (that sound? thats clipping bro). I've never been one to partake in instrumental mixing for the **** of it (or the dollar of it) not to knock anyone who does, either as a consumer or service provider but if a beat is dope its gonna be picked wether it sounds like it was tracked and mixed on a Maxell or a SSL…SONGS however still need mixing, typically. Sometimes peoples roughs sound good tho, and thats kinda been the case since home recording started so…not much has changed lol
Old 21st December 2016
  #28
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by ANR2011 View Post
there is no way I'm selling a bear for $10 or $50
Word, bears are worth way more than that.
Old 22nd December 2016
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BertyBert View Post
Word, bears are worth way more than that.
Lmao.. You're so right!.. It's the auto correct and most times I am multi-tasking so I haven't been checking the spelling before posting from my phone.
Old 22nd December 2016
  #30
Gear Addict
 

How much mixing does a disposable mumble rapper being played through a cell phone speaker by a 12 year old on a noisy bus really need?
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