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Timbaland steals demoscene music
Old 15th January 2007
  #91
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PhonoquO's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
How can you lose respect for him when you don't even know the circumstances?

It's just as plausible that Tim:

A) Didn't know he was dealing with copyrighted music

B) Didn't know who either grg or Janne Suni was (I didn't until this issue was posted), or that they were responsible for that piece of music

C) Didn't even dig the sample himself (remember, he has a team under him) and was misinformed about its origin

or

D) The label, with inadequate info about the origin of the audio, didn't want to hold up the release of a hot song for a scavenger hunt, and so the labeldecided to release it anyway and deal with the aftermath later, after it was out of Tim's hands (again, this is what happened to Just Blaze).


So before you go making Timbaland out to be a malicious thief, you might want to get the rest of the facts!.
Just because i lost respect, and i am disappointed by this doesn't mean i don't have the right to state my opinion regardless of whether or not all the facts have been brought to the surface. In my mind this is a clear example of plagiarism and is unethical, especially from a producer of this caliber.
Old 15th January 2007
  #92
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Agzilla's Avatar
 

...

Appart from stealing a whole song... sampling in Hip Hop always came down to one thing....

Hide your tracks, if you can chop it til it cannot be recognised as a previous composition...you'll get away with it and prolly deserve to...as sampling IS an artform in it's own right!

I don't mean a big 2 or 4 bar loop, i mean sounds.... WHEREVER they come from!

Technically ANY sample is a masters usage and copyright infringment...but lets face it, there's a billion recordings to sample from... be creative and thorough and you can make great music using samples and not get bagged, and more importantly not actually steal another musicians composition.. you are using parts of a recording for sounds, not the same sequence of notes as found in the original... you know..

Stab from here pitched up, snare from therer pitched down... etc

There is a difference..... this case is a direct jack of a WHOLE song, chord structure, progression, changes and even tempo according to the youtube evidence!

Like it was said earlier...

SOMEONE DECIDED TO JUST TAKE IT WHOLESALE! NO EFFORT TO DISGUISE IT, NO CHANGES TO MAKE IT THEIR OWN... JUST STRAIGHT THEFT!

When you have that much dough, you should pay, Timbaland STILL had the ear and talent to make something from nowhere a hit...but he didn't writie it... he shoulda done a split...

All you folks saying it's how it goes, happens all the time etc, probably change ya tune when / if it's your song getting jacked...

That is all.....

I wonder what else timbaland didn't actually write..? Dirt of my Shoulder was some Malaysian kid on a playstation i heard....

Zz.
Old 15th January 2007
  #93
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daillman's Avatar
now thats a damn shame ,something need to be done bout that,when i see tim i'll tell him to contact this site.
Old 15th January 2007
  #94
Yeah clear it, that'll be the proper thing to do, at this point in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovisceral View Post
...................................
Anyway, FYI, here was a case of one heavyweight being ripped off by another (Coldplay by Ashlee Simpson's producer) and no one heard more of it than on recording.org.

One is panned L and one R. One was up 1 bpm, one was down 1 bpm.

http://www.audiovisceral.com/Ashlee%...uare%20One.mp3

Again,
wow

Chuck D on sampling for hiphop/rap:
http://www.stayfreemagazine.org/arch...lic_enemy.html
Old 15th January 2007
  #95
Deleted bd1be4f
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
Man there's no rule that says as a music producer you have to work alone or even compose... Usually major producers will still do *some* major parts of the beat (especially drums) but in reality the hat of music "producer" is someone that brings together the right people for a specific outcome, NOT someone that singlehandedly composes all of the music.

If you want to wear that hat, you branch out and do your own production... But if you work for Dre and he's calling the shots, he is the parent "producer. And as far as writers credits, usually when Danja or whoever coproduces a track, you DO see his name in the writing credits or as coproducer.
And once again you've completely missed the mark. OF COURSE the role of producer doesn't necessarily mean that you are playing or programming ANYTHING. After all, Quincy Jones didn't play anything on Michael Jackson's records, but no one questions his talents as the producer.

But guess what the difference is? If you said, "he credited all the people who worked on the record for what they did" YOU WIN THE PRIZE! With a lot of today's producers, that doesn't happen. Mr. Big Name Producer is often content to let the guys he hired do all the work and get none of the credit, and let the world think HE did all the programming, instruments, or synth work. And we're not even talking about giving the hired help co-production credits, we're simply talking about giving them credit for what they strictly did, whether it's "additional drum programming", "synth programming", or whatever. The fact that these days we use the term "ghost producer" says it all. The bottom line is that these days when we hear a track and read the credits saying only "Produced by So and So" and no other credits for programming, we assume HE's the one who did all the programming and beatmaking. But we ALL know that's not necessarily the case. So why's it so hard to simply give proper credit where credit is due for the contributions each member of a team provided? We all know the answer: because Mr. So and So LIKES the world to think he did all the programming.
Old 15th January 2007
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
.
But guess what the difference is? If you said, "he credited all the people who worked on the record for what they did" YOU WIN THE PRIZE! With a lot of today's producers, that doesn't happen. Mr. Big Name Producer is often content to let the guys he hired do all the work and get none of the credit, and let the world think HE did all the programming, instruments, or synth work.
Who's giving none of the credit? Have you ever looked at a Dre album or a Just Blaze production and SEEN all the other people that are credited for instruments and programming and whatnot? Have you ever seen all of the tracks that are produced by "Timbaland and DanjaHandz"? Or are you still making blanket statements and assumptions? If you need a cross-sections, go pick up the Duets album, which has a bunch of major producers on it, read the credits, and see just how many other people are credited on many of the songs as writers and contributors besides C. Wallace and the main producer.

Ghost producing is a fact of life, and a space on someone's team has to be earned... But there are plenty of people that DO get credit. You seem to be apt to always take the negative view of everything heh
Old 15th January 2007
  #97
Deleted bd1be4f
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
Who's giving none of the credit? Have you ever looked at a Dre album or a Just Blaze production and SEEN all the other people that are credited for instruments and programming and whatnot? Have you ever seen all of the tracks that are produced by "Timbaland and DanjaHandz"? Or are you still making blanket statements and assumptions?
Dude, wake up. It happens all the time. It's happened to fellow musicians and producers I know. I could list for you a ton of records where proper credit wasn't given. And uh, doesn't the argument you just made CONTRADICT your whole scenario regarding "Do It", where you postulated that there could have been any number of guys "down the food chain" who stole the material? If so, where are their names on the credits? I mean, if everybody who worked on the track is properly listed in the credits, it's pretty darn easy to narrow down who stole the original material right? Yet here is the extent of the credits for that track:
Do It
Drums by Timbaland
Keyboards by Danja and Timbaland
Addl. programming by Demacio "Demo" Castellon


So the guilty party is Timbo, Danja or Castellon. Period.

Quote:
Ghost producing is a fact of life, and a space on someone's team has to be earned... But there are plenty of people that DO get credit. You seem to be apt to always take the negative view of everything
Don't look now, but you just completely contradicted yourself. First you say that everyone who works on these projects DOES get credited, then you say "ghost producing is a fact of life", and we all know what ghost producing means, it means doing work that you're not getting proper credit for, because after all, if you were, it would just be called PRODUCING. So which is it?

And there are plenty of people that DON'T get credit, and that's what we're talking about here. What, because some or even most of the time guys get credit, that makes it OKAY for the other times when guys DON'T? Sorry, I don't buy into that line of thinking, and if pointing out the times where people get snubbed for their work and saying that they shouldn't have to eat that **** sandwich makes me negative, so be it.
Old 15th January 2007
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
I mean, if everybody who worked on the track is properly listed in the credits, it's pretty darn easy to narrow down who stole the original material right? Yet here is the extent of the credits for that track:
Do It
Drums by Timbaland
Keyboards by Danja and Timbaland
Addl. programming by Demacio "Demo" Castellon


So the guilty party is Timbo, Danja or Castellon. Period.
.
When did I contradict myself by saying that *everyone* that works on every project gets credited? I said *plenty* of people do. I'm not even going to address that, because it's sometihng I never said heh

Secondly, yeah, now we have 3 people, not just Tim... And you're still incorrect, because who know where *they* got it from. On a lot of major records there are people that "dig" samples that had nothing to do with actually producing the song... For example, the guy that brought "Shaft In Africa" to JB for "Show Me What you Got". Anyone can find a sample. So you're wrong, we don't really know where the theft itself occurred, and where the misinformation could have started. All we know is what the overall outcome was, and the fact that the label, which has the final authority for clearing samples, didn't clear it or credit correctly...

We don't even know if they were *told* to or not (remember in Just Blaze's case, he notified them and the *label* released it uncredited anyway because they didn't want to hold the release up for clearance), so before you go deciding who you think "stole" what, you need to get the facts.

This is not that hard to understand. Like I said, I sympathize with the composer. I don't defend copyright infringement, and I'll give my criticism to specific parties too; but *only* after I know both sides of the situation. That's the only way that makes sense.
Old 15th January 2007
  #99
Deleted bd1be4f
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
When did I contradict myself by saying that *everyone* that works on every project gets credited? I said *plenty* of people do. I'm not even going to address that, because it's sometihng I never said heh
So then what kind of argument are you even making here? I mean, just because *plenty* of people get credited, is that supposed to excuse the rest who deserve credit who don't get it? THAT's the whole point.

Quote:
Secondly, yeah, now we have 3 people, not just Tim... And you're still incorrect, because who know where *they* got it from. On a lot of major records there are people that "dig" samples that had nothing to do with actually producing the song... For example, the guy that brought "Shaft In Africa" to JB for "Show Me What you Got". Anyone can find a sample. So you're wrong, we don't really know where the theft itself occurred, and where the misinformation could have started. All we know is what the overall outcome was, and the fact that the label, which has the final authority for clearing samples, didn't clear it or credit correctly...

We don't even know if they were *told* to or not (remember in Just Blaze's case, he notified them and the *label* released it uncredited anyway because they didn't want to hold the release up for clearance), so before you go deciding who you think "stole" what, you need to get the facts.

This is not that hard to understand. Like I said, I sympathize with the composer, I'll give my criticism to specific parties too, but *only* after I know both sides of the situation.
Speaking of not hard to understand, how hard is it for you to understand that WE'RE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT DIGGING OR CLEARING A SAMPLE HERE?? We're talking about stealing the song itself, meaning chords and melody. This goes far beyond some peon rooting around and collecting samples, we're talking about stealing an entire composition. What part of that is so hard to get?
Old 15th January 2007
  #100
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the real problem is that for every lawyer and dollar figure an artist or producer can come up with, an established, hit making producer can get x 50. Think about it: Mega-producer 'A' steals beat from no-name/upandcoming producer 'B'. Said track becomes a hit record and nets 500,000 USD to 'A'. 'B' hears track and hires a lawyer to litigate (if 'B' was even smart enough to not only copyright said track but also get a signed agreement with 'A'. otherwise litigation is a pipe-dream). Unfortunately the issue is not only for 'A' but also record company that put out 'A's track (Ive seen situations where the label actually gets involved because the longer the litigation, the longer everyone has to wait to recoup). So now 'B' takes 'A' (and all affiliated parties) to court. 'B' spends every penny he, his family, and his associates can come up with to pay the best lawyer he can get, lets say 100,000 USD. One of three things will happen: 1) 'A' will offer an out of court settlement to end the litigation ASAP. Lets say he offers 150,000. 'A' still nets 350,000 and 'B' gets 10% of 'A's net after court costs and lawyer fees. 2) 'B' runs out of money when 'A' puts 300,000 into retainers for 3 worldclass lawyers that run circles around 'B's 1 lawyer. 'A' walks with 200,000. 'B' gets nothing. 3) ((Which NEVER happens due to scenario2)) - 'B' wins after spending every single penny he, and everyone he knows, has. Is awarded 100,000 and court costs (due to 'A' hiding said profits in 700 pages of accounting and the connections of 3 worldclass lawyers) which is 200,000, minus his expenses is 100,000. and REMEMBER - these court cases go on for YEARS!....
Isn't it a great system?
Old 15th January 2007
  #101
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Mark1353's Avatar
 

This infringement got national newspaper coverage in Finland today.

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/viihde/uutinen.asp?id=1301161

A free translation:

"Ilta-Sanomat magazine asked a professional producer from US to listen to both songs, his verdict was harsh: 'Suni might have a chance to make big money out of this. Hard to say why Mosley has done something like this.'

Suni himself is keeping very low profile about this. He told through his friend that he is going to discuss with an expert of law next week.

Suni thinks that taking this matter to court is a big financial risk, because the opposing side is a big player and has limitless financial resources.

Suni promises to enlighten his views thoroughly on his website today.
http://www.fairlight.fi/tempest/ "
Old 15th January 2007
  #102
Tim and Suni will settle out of court on the master side. Who cares? You guys are getting all lathered up about something that will be inconsequential to the history of music or Timbaland's legendary career as one of the greatest ever.

Ultimately, Suni will be paid FAR MORE than if Tim had cleared it originally, due to his post-album release leverage. So Timbo gets a slap on the hand (probably in the 50-200 G's range), Suni buys a house (maybe 2) in Finland, and Tim will be a little more diligent in the future. Maybe it was one of his programmers, or maybe management didn't clear the sample properly or advised not to clear, they couldn't find documentation on the source material, WHO KNOWS?

We should all agree that it's stealing if he used the master recording in his own. But to demonize Timbaland doesn't make sense. Yes, he dropped the ball. But this is purely about law and $$$. It's not about great art, the tradition of hip hop, etc. so don't get things confused.
Old 15th January 2007
  #103
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PhonoquO's Avatar
 

i wish suni the best of luck in getting paid. if it's a cut and dry case once all the evidence has been analyzed by the proper lawyers, i think the matter will be settled quickly out of court, as the damage that could be incured to Timbo's camp both financially and moreso in negative publicity would not make it worthwhile to defend in court.
Old 15th January 2007
  #104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stitch333 View Post
'B' wins after spending every single penny he, and everyone he knows, has. Is awarded 100,000 and court costs (due to 'A' hiding said profits in 700 pages of accounting and the connections of 3 worldclass lawyers) which is 200,000, minus his expenses is 100,000. and REMEMBER - these court cases go on for YEARS!....
Isn't it a great system?
I'm sure anything is possible but this is not my experience of how it goes down...I've got one friend who bought a house in LA off of an uncleared Janet Jackson single. However, there's always someone who is willing to settle for too little... a recent Christina A. uncleared sample went for 15K. That is truly sad, but it falls squarely in the artist's lap for accepting such a low figure. It looks like Suni knows what he has here, and I would think he will be taken care of.
Old 15th January 2007
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khameln View Post
Do we know how he came across the track and if he thought it was public domain? It seems like people on forums always jump to a million conclusions and crucify people before they know all of the facts... It's like people love any chance to bring a superstar down a notch, and they are quick to say he's greedy and wants to screw people before they even know the circumstances that led to this situation in the first place.

In fact, Just Blaze specifically addressed an issue like this in his interview, i suggest you check it out. He said that he did a track for Cam'Ron, which was put out on the radio the next day without him even knowing that the sample wasn't cleared (which the label was supposed to do), and the publishing company ended up threatening to sue and taking ALL of the publishing in addition to demanding a large sum of extra money, due to something that wasn't his fault at all. Now I'm sure if they had sued and made a big victimized spectacle out of it on the internet with headlines like "Just Blaze Steals Music", all of you would have just jumped down his throat about how unethical Just Blaze is and how he steals music and doesn't clear samples, before you even knew the facts.

I mean people are making this out to be some huge amazing thing, it's like discovering an old demo song from an 80's Playskool toy guitar that has potential and making a beat out of it. He might have thought he was bringing back something from the dead, without realizing that this particular version of it was created recently by an artist and put out specifically for an exhibition.

You don't know who was responsible for clearance, who actually discovered the track and brought it, what they said... Heck he has a team, you don't even really know who decided to put it in the song and whether or not he knew the whole deal.

Anyway, there seems to be a growing trend of people taking things and running with them, until someone that was actually involved has to register for the forums, post, and set people straight. So fr my part, I'm not going to villify anybody until I know more.
That's exactly, what I'm sayin.
Old 15th January 2007
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloocproducer View Post
Tim and Suni will settle out of court on the master side. Who cares? You guys are getting all lathered up about something that will be inconsequential to the history of music or Timbaland's legendary career as one of the greatest ever.

Ultimately, Suni will be paid FAR MORE than if Tim had cleared it originally, due to his post-album release leverage. So Timbo gets a slap on the hand (probably in the 50-200 G's range), Suni buys a house (maybe 2) in Finland, and Tim will be a little more diligent in the future. Maybe it was one of his programmers, or maybe management didn't clear the sample properly or advised not to clear, they couldn't find documentation on the source material, WHO KNOWS?

We should all agree that it's stealing if he used the master recording in his own. But to demonize Timbaland doesn't make sense. Yes, he dropped the ball. But this is purely about law and $$$. It's not about great art, the tradition of hip hop, etc. so don't get things confused.
Fine. But Timbo is ultimately responsible for upholding his name and is responsible for the actions of those that work with him. Myself i'm not "demonizing" Timbo; he's written alot of great tracks and i respect that at least.
Old 15th January 2007
  #107
Deleted bd1be4f
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloocproducer View Post
Tim and Suni will settle out of court on the master side. Who cares? You guys are getting all lathered up about something that will be inconsequential to the history of music or Timbaland's legendary career as one of the greatest ever.
I agree that a settlement is likely. And I agree that Timbo is one of the best ever. Doesn't mean he's above criticism if he stole someone else's song, however. No one is.
Old 15th January 2007
  #108
Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
I agree that a settlement is likely. And I agree that Timbo is one of the best ever. Doesn't mean he's above criticism if he stole someone else's song, however. No one is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhonoquO View Post
Fine. But Timbo is ultimately responsible for upholding his name and is responsible for the actions of those that work with him. Myself i'm not "demonizing" Timbo; he's written alot of great tracks and i respect that at least.
Agreed.
Old 15th January 2007
  #109
amp
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon View Post
Opening up Slashdot.org tonight had links for a few things that seem to indicate that the famed Timbaland didn't just sample a few things, but basically stole an entire song, added a few drum beats to it, sampled it as well, and had Nelly Furtado sing over it for her album. This wasn't just sampling, but blatenet theft of the song.

You know how you guys are always saying that it doesn't matter if it's legal or not to sample, or that people never get caught? Well, check out this YouTube link, and see for yourself. This is worse theft than Ice Ice Baby. Way worse.

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/14/0113234 (already some discussion)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4KX7SkDe4Q (The evidence)


Text from Slashdot:

In 2000 the Finnish demoscene musician Janne Suni (also known as 'Tempest') won the Oldskool Music Competition at the Assembly demoparty with his four-channel Amiga .MOD entitled 'Acid Jazzed Evening.' A Commodore 64 musician called 'grg' remade the song on the C64 (using the infamous SID soundchip); it is this that was stolen. The producer's name is Timbaland and he is one of the hottest names in American music these days. The track in question is called 'Do it' and it is featured on the Nelly Furtado album 'Loose' on the Geffen label. Getting nowhere with Geffen, the demoscene has now risen to the aid of Tempest, first by creating a stir at SomethingAwful (files downloadable from the forum), then at Digg.com, then on YouTube, with a video demonstrating the blatant ripoff.
welcome to the music biz. its hard but its fair

Last edited by amp; 15th January 2007 at 08:17 PM.. Reason: forgot something
Old 15th January 2007
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filterayok View Post
... i hope its obvious now that there is no such thing as "artistic integrity" in todays pop music genre... its about making a hit and getting paid ANYWAY YOU CAN.... dont be so dissapointed, come join in on the fun!thumbsup
agreed! let's all go steal somethin and make a hit!!
Old 15th January 2007
  #111
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Amazing Idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by NesNeedsGear View Post
agreed! let's all go steal somethin and make a hit!!
Even better!!!! Let's all sample a Timbaland song (and by that I mean blatently rip off every samplable part, and THEN rap over it about how Timbaland has to steal Finnish music. Oh the Irony.

The thing is, that we could claim it as "parody", which Thank Weird Al... would be protected under US Copyright law (well not the sampling part I don't believe, but the publishing end would be). As for the sampling part, he'd be getting a taste of his own.
Old 15th January 2007
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon View Post
Even better!!!! Let's all sample a Timbaland song (and by that I mean blatently rip off every samplable part, and THEN rap over it about how Timbaland has to steal Finnish music. Oh the Irony.

The thing is, that we could claim it as "parody"...
GENIUS!

I nominate you GS governor, Tib!
Old 15th January 2007
  #113
Gear Nut
 

Im sorry i would'nt call producers that make beats off keyboards "greatness". Someone like price lenny kravitz kid rock is what talent really is. They write there ****,they play all their **** and they record all there ****..Timba just puts **** together from a drum machine and keyboard and loops its,im sorry but that's not greatness.
Old 15th January 2007
  #114
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Prince not price..lol
Old 15th January 2007
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearobsessed View Post
Im sorry i would'nt call producers that make beats off keyboards "greatness". Someone like price lenny kravitz kid rock is what talent really is. They write there ****,they play all their **** and they record all there ****..Timba just puts **** together from a drum machine and keyboard and loops its,im sorry but that's not greatness.
You are obviously a elite rock dude so that comment is....

But you need to look at Timbo's discography. Especially the innovative r&b material he has been doing for years back from Jodeci and Aaliyah days til now.

quincy jones, barry white, etc. were great and they didnt write, play and record all their stuff. You rock dudes gotta leave that nonsense at the door.
Old 15th January 2007
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
Speaking of not hard to understand, how hard is it for you to understand that WE'RE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT DIGGING OR CLEARING A SAMPLE HERE?? We're talking about stealing the song itself, meaning chords and melody. This goes far beyond some peon rooting around and collecting samples, we're talking about stealing an entire composition. What part of that is so hard to get?
I was talking about the song too... And again, if you didn't KNOW it was a copyrighted song, how would you know to clear it? It's not like you can just play a melody into a "song database" and it processes for a while and pops up with "Title: Blah -- Composed By Finnish Composer Janne Sunni Date: 8..." If you weren't GIVEN this information, and nobody in your camp is actually familiar with that song or the composer, and your label doesn't find it, then this is exactly what happens. It's an easy mistake to make if you aren't given the correct information about the origin of the song, not to mention the sample!

If the label is in this situation, and the source isn't known to be copyrighted, if the song is a likely hit on a project ths major, they will likely choose to release it anyway, whether you like it or not, and then deal with the consequences later if something like this happens. Why? Because that makes a lot more financial sense to them than to hold back the song/cd release or not release the hot song at all.

The bottom line is, we don't know what the parties involved on Tim's side actually knew while this was going on... So until there is more info on what happened, it's useless to place the blame on a specific person.
Old 15th January 2007
  #117
Gear Nut
 

Listen i like rap n rnb. It makes my girl shake her ass and its nice to listen to because its so simple. Im sure it sells alot cause people like easy simple music with hooks and nice melodies. But to me as a music perspective it's not much talent to it.
Old 15th January 2007
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearobsessed View Post
Listen i like rap n rnb. It makes my girl shake her ass and its nice to listen to because its so simple. Im sure it sells alot cause people like easy simple music with hooks and nice melodies. But to me as a music perspective it's not much talent to it.
so stay in the rock forum. what do you gain by coming to the hip hop forum and saying anything?
Old 15th January 2007
  #119
Gear Nut
 

Timba looks like he eats good. He looks like a blown up bobble head doll how he dances around in the videos.
Old 15th January 2007
  #120
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Alex Niedt's Avatar
 

Gearobsessed, your posts are simply ignorant. Trying making the music Timbaland creates and changing the course of hip-hop/r&b/pop music like he has. Then come back and tell us how simple, easy, and mediocre it is.
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