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Problem Vocalists. Or are they all??? HOHO.
Old 9th March 2003
  #1
Harmless Wacko
 

Thread Starter
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Old 9th March 2003
  #2
Gear nut
 
studiojimi's Avatar
 

hi marks in timing/pitch/interpretation in most nuances.

those are required for a fun time and a realistic attainable goal (hopefully)

but if i have a singer who at least understands that i can help them

i'll bust my as-------whooops ..my butt for them.

it's funny how the clueless are often the pains

and yes i'd rather work with someone who is williing to try to take direction than a primadonna with a few decent licks

bottom line now, no matter what the talent level
i long to win their confidence and often do after i get them out of trouble they get themselves into
if you didn't want a task master then you came to the wrong shop at my place. another thing..sometimes i can't believe how i will love someones song more than they realize they need to. shucks....yesterday we were doing a vocal i had bruthas behind me "producing" one on the side
one out next to the female singer and i did not pee for 10.5 hours
the side man went out for fatburgers...and we ate while we cut
i can't do those type of days too often anymore. oh yeah and when we called it they preferred to sit around in the control room and sing motown songs to each other. at that point i'd rather be swimming.
Old 9th March 2003
  #3
1) Singing late, out of time, behind the beat.

Very hard to coach if they cant 'hear' the problem..

madd
Old 9th March 2003
  #4
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Yeah, attitude is one problem unless they can deliver the goods. If they can deliver then it doesn't bug me. Someone who's deaf is also a problem. By deaf I mean, can't hit a note and has timing or other problems and can't hear them. I find that if someone is strong in one area, they have more slack to be off in the others. Still, I think the worst for me is dynamics. If the dynamics are really whacked and they aren't willing to help with mic technique then I get all bummed out and would rather be doing anything else.
Old 9th March 2003
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Curve Dominant's Avatar
Being somewhat new to this "producing/engineering" thing, having worked with only nine singers by now and soon to start with #10...

I have to agree with Slipperman: Attitude Is Everything.

Attitude can't be taught, but it can be cultivated. The vocalist has to be made to understand, before recording starts, that the result depends on the effort, and so the effort must be in the 110% range at all times. So, have a meeting with the singer before the session. Communicate to the singer that your expectations of him/her are high, and that you have total faith and confidence that they can deliver, IF they put in the effort. This cultivates a winning attitude.

I like to start by getting the vocalist to imagine herself as a character in the story that the song is telling, and coach her on "getting into character" in ways such as visualizing the setting of the story, feeling the emotions the character is feeling, and living out the story through the song. Then, appropriate timing, phrasing, dynamics and diction will naturally flow from that. Emotional intensity is the key - coach the vocalist in maintaining it.

Pitch is a wildcard that's difficult to chase. If I tell a singer to concentrate on her pitch, the rest of those attributes usually go out the window, so I don't bother. Her pitch is either good, inconsistent, or bad. Good pitch obviously is not a problem. Inconsistent pitch I can work with: I simply get lots of takes, and weed out the bad ones in the editing suite. And sometimes the vocalist oozes so much soul and emotion that even when she's a little "off" in pitch, she still sounds "on"; I will often keep those takes over takes that have perfect pitch, yet lack the emotional intensity of the "pitch-imperfect" takes. YMMV.

I'm not yet "successful" enough to have been forced to work with a singer who has downright hopelessly bad pitch, so I'll defer to the "pros" on that (hee-hee).

Persistence:

Persistence is right behind Attitude. Coach the vocalist in what John Madden calls "stick-to-it-iveness."

I just produced a session where the singer (classically trained) said after the fourth pathetically bad take, "I can't do it. You'll have to get another singer for this song, because I can't do it." No, you're wrong, I told her. You can. You want to do it, I know you do, and if you want to do it, you can. You can do it, so let's keep going. So, we kept at it...Long story short: Takes #9 & 10 were absolutely brilliant, and that song is one of the very best I've ever recorded. And the singer's confidence inspired by that hard-won victory is immeasurable.

Stick-to-it-iveness: Works wonders; patience and persistence required.

Vocalists are human, and thus flawed. You have to get behind them and pump them up, the way a football coach does with his quarterback: You have to keep them in the game at all cost, continually making them believe they can win.

Torture doesn't work - push them ONLY when they're doing well. But when they're floundering, let up a little, double back and re-approach it from a different angle. BUT, under ANY circumstance, even in those dark moments when you think it's absolutely hopeless, don't EVER let a vocalist think you've lost faith in their ability to succeed. A singer ALWAYS has to believe they are just one or two takes away from nailing the track. If you believe it, they'll believe it, and they will surprise you with a brilliant performance.

I've seen it happen, and I've recorded it. It's a beautiful thing. I love it. I love these torturous sessions that eventually yield a brilliant performance. I love standing in front of the monitors, the vocalist next to me, listening back to the final edit and saying to them, "Listen to that: That's you! It's brilliant! You are brilliant, and you are now immortalized in song!" And as I'm feeling the pride they are oozing from their very being, I point to the monitors that are eminating this very human and rare art, this baring of a human soul, and say to the vocalist, "That's why I do this."

And I mean it, and the vocalist knows it. And THAT's the key for the engineer/producer: You have to love the process, and love the potential and the vision of what the vocalist is capable of, whatever those capabilities may be. And the vocalist must believe, without a shadow of a doubt, that you have the most absolute confidence in their ability to succeed. If you visibly lose that confidence, you are f&cked.

You have to envision a product of brilliance the vocalist is capable of, and lead them there. Evaluate a matrix of the vocalist's strengths and weaknesses, and draw from that matrix a vision of maximum potential for that vocalist. Communicate to the vocalist that vision, make them believe they can achieve that vision, and coach them through the process of achieving that vision.

Quote:
Problem Vocalists. Or are they all??? HOHO.
Vocalists will always present problems. Our job is to provide solutions.
Old 9th March 2003
  #6
Re: Problem Vocalists. Or are they all??? HOHO.

Quote:
Originally posted by slipperman
Heyo.

I got one for you guys who wear both AE and RP hats.....

What's the WORST problem you can have recording a singer in your estimation?

Is it pitch?

Diction?

Dynamics?

Phrasing?



If ya HAD to pick one that most completely discourages/angers/ bothers/whatevers you.... What is it?

I'll start.

Attitude.

If get a kid with a bad attitude, I CAN'T seem to help him work on the other stuff as well.

This may seem like a coy 'end run' type of question BUT....

I've met and worked with guys who'd RATHER deal with a kid with a crazy attitude than any of the others.

Type 'B' bruisers.

WhaddaYaThink?

SM.
You know when it comes to problems with attitude and singers(here I go starting something...) I think that starts first with the engineer and blends itself outward(usually to the singer).

I think the problem is a lot of engineers aren't singers, so they really don't understand the "mentals" that go into a great vocal performance. They approach it like they do everything else, "this is an instrument, this is where I stick the mic, and then i record it".

Singing is 95% mental and maybe 5% physical(this includes pitch,diction,dynamics,phrasing etc).

I think if more engineers studied singing(or took a vocal class) maybe they could relate more and better understand how to get better performances.

I think one of the keys on our end(as engineers) that we lose along the way is patience. You know all the sayings"Patience is better than pride""Better a patient man than a warrior" "through patience a ruler can be persuaded" i could go on and on.

As I am writing this, this goes as much to me as anybody. I know I've ticked of singers lots of times.heh

I am one of those "pitch squinters". If the notes are even remotely flat or sharp, I squint. Needless to say it doesn't make the singer comfortable that's for sure. Lately I've been checking myself and I try not to show any of my true feelings. I just go with it and later on we fix it.
Old 9th March 2003
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Great post Eric.

Spoken like a true production champ.

Best to ya.

SM.
Thanks, SM, back at ya.
Old 9th March 2003
  #8
Jr. Gear Slut 2nd class
 
chessparov's Avatar
 

Two helpful books for singers are "Complete Singer's Guide",
by Wayland Pickard, and "Power Performance for Singers",
by Shirlee Emmons & Alma Thomas.
The first book is more basic and has good stuff for quick fixes.
The second would be terrific for a producer to use working on a
long term basis with a singer.

A singer can be helped by taking the mental focus AKA pressure,
off themselves, and instead concentrating on the song.
As Pickard says in his book, singing is different than acting in that
acting is "putting on the mask", whereas singing is taking it off.
Big difference...

The reality is that most pop singers are amateurs in terms of vocal
technique and delivery. That's why attitude is such a key component.
They're trying to express emotions that are too intense for their
skill limitations. Notice I said "skill" not talent. With most untrained
singers, you can't tell how "good" their voices are until they start
hitting a certain level as you need to hear better coordination
to tell. Less than 2% of the population is tone deaf BTW.

An old acapella trick is to have someone blow a pitch pipe for the
entire song to keep someone in key. Bet it would work in a headphone
mix too.
Old 9th March 2003
  #9
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
 

Getting them to feel confident enough to really open up and deliver the song... not just 'sing the words'. They can sing the words all day long... but unless they deliver the emotional content behind those words in a believable/convincing manner... it's all bull****.

For me, the hardest thing to do is get the singer mentally prepared to sing the emotion through the walls they've erected to protect themself... and the "bigger the singer" the harder that is unless the singer has enough time under their belt where they actually understand that singing is about 'selling the emotional content of the song'... not just delivering notes.
Old 9th March 2003
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Tim L's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletcher
For me, the hardest thing to do is get the singer mentally prepared to sing the emotion through the walls they've erected to protect themself...
Do you have any particular methods you rely on to help the singer "tear down the wall"?
Old 9th March 2003
  #11
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i like ATTITUDE... i dont like bad attitude [=ego]. my pet peeve is lack of knowledge of "working" a mic... and the unwillingness to learn.
Old 9th March 2003
  #12
Gear nut
 
studiojimi's Avatar
 

i am also really enoying this thread.

many singers appear to have problems hearing intervals in melodies that they may have even written themselves.

i keep a piano handy as a reinforcent note isolating tool and also use other songs - usually old children's songs to show the interval they appear to be missing the mark on from a song they have should already have deeper in their consciousness than the one they are really working on. it can be humiliating to some of the pompous ones but it does reveal the truth. and it has often been a great tool....detach from the problem and focus on a little nursury rhyme melody to use as an interval comparison model.

headphones freak out some singers ability to access techiques they are normally acoustically better at. i usually ask them to hold their phones/cans during the take and slightly pull them off the ears in order to hear the true presence of their sounds. the raised arms also expands the chest cavity and promotes a larger air lung capacity.

in the line by line method
i have also used "looping the phrase" in the track before the punch point- that is having the singer sing the line in the groove during the preroll when the chord progression allows in order to increase the "odds" of getting the timing and pitch scores to an acceptable level and hopefully the feeling is there behind the captured moment. after some experience you can even fight the chord progression when looping.

i'd be interested in knowing the percentage of singers you do comps with as opposed to the line by line.

because i am a singer as well as a drummer and very hands on type, i prefer to use my gifts with the vocalists i work with line by line but occasionally they just can't go that direction....some want to capture a "feeling" and i understand that. some of them are just trippin'. the trick is to make a"righteous" judgment based on faith in oneself with no ill agenda and procede with love.

also i'd be interested in how much pre roll do you normally use. i tend to like 5 to 6 seconds but i find occasionally that is not enough for some singers.
and in some very seldom cases too much. (i'd call them punch pouncers)

tutt
Old 9th March 2003
  #13
Registered User
 
malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
i'd be interested in knowing the percentage of singers you do comps with as opposed to the line by line.
I comp most of the time, as long as I'm working with good singers.
I really drop a line if I don't have it in the comp.
I hate line by line, as I hate vibeless performance

as far as the original question is involved : Attitude pretty much sums the main problem with singers.

I have another great one, in a funnier level : singers who are incapable of doing harmonies on their own voice and wish to do so by all means.

Where's my aspirin, mmh there it is ...

<malice pushing the talkback> : "and again, sweetie ..." heh

malice
Old 9th March 2003
  #14
Jr. Gear Slut 2nd class
 
chessparov's Avatar
 

The best "pre roll" is to start again at the beginning for most singers.
That way they stay more in a groove and have more accurate pitch.
Plus they need (much) more practice not less!

The better singers I hear live every week (Broadway show level), sound
better when you record their entire perfomance rather than comping BTW.
Stopping/starting parts of songs chops up a performance to a degree.
Certainly understand that it's a necessity for most singers you encounter
though. As long as the song is within their skill level, however, they'd be so
much better off not comping.

As a singer, I also find wearing headphones distracting.
Have you guys found that using a dynamic microphone for the vocalist and
having them sing to the monitors helps greatly?

Chris

P.S. Don't mean to sound pompous in my tone. Personally still at the "comp"
level somewhat, although working on vocal technique to eliminate that.
Old 10th March 2003
  #15
Gear nut
 

...singer that stomps time with their left heel...thud thud thud...especially on the ballads.

Or a singer with improbably plosives, friggin' fricatives, and sloppy sibilants.

Singer (writer, actually) who jams round words into square rhythms.

Singer who thinks a diaphragm is for stopping sperm from swimming upstream.

Singer who thinks a sinus is part of their 'sound'

Singer who thinks that only pussies bring a lyric sheet into the booth.

Singer that has never sung a note he/she didn't like.

zowd
Old 10th March 2003
  #16
Gear nut
 
studiojimi's Avatar
 

that's funny about starting at the top as a pre roll

that would wear out the vocalist real quick

it is also funny to me the term "vibeless" performance

i guess producing a vocal is so second nature to me

i started my studio business in 1986 and have done over 3000 songs
and i think that one can develop or at least fine tune the idea of masking the punch in process. i listen to old tapes and i don't hear anything i would name vibeless....just love applied and care attention to the nuances i have an understanding of.
then again
i think a lot of singers would rather be locked in a room with ike turner than myself during many sessions.

but more often than not- i do get results that get me a hug and a thank you by sessions end-even from the prima donnas
Old 10th March 2003
  #17
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
that's funny about starting at the top as a pre roll

that would wear out the vocalist real quick
The last singer I had in here requested starting each and every take from the top.

She sang the tune all the way through ten times, and sounded as fresh on the last take as on the first.

One of the cool things about this game, is how different peeps can have a variety of methods, and they all can still get high quality results regardless.
Old 10th March 2003
  #18
Jr. Gear Slut 2nd class
 
chessparov's Avatar
 

Wow, do most pop singers really get worn out that quick?

My last vocal coach said he had good and bad news for me.
The good news was that the size of the voice was large enough and had sufficient tone quality to consider an operatic career of national prominence if the (giant) amount of proper effort was made.

The bad news...
Based on some factors he had determined during the time up to this point, it was advisable for me to warm up for a
MINIMUM of 45+ minutes at home each day. Then spend an average of 2+ hours per day on singing "repetoire".
I think Charlotte Church has said she's practicing 5+ hours a day to stay in top shape. O.K., will admit that THAT seems like a long day!

Whatever happened to knocking those old great albums out in 12 hours straight or less?

Chris

P.S. Said instructor was already aware that the number of lessons
with him were remaining constant, whether pop or opera,
so there was no incentive for him to misrepresent.
He does have a friendly rivalry with Franco Corelli as a fellow
teacher though, and did want to hand down his knowledge
of baritone roles to me.
Old 10th March 2003
  #19
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim L
Do you have any particular methods you rely on to help the singer "tear down the wall"?
It's different from singer to singer... some take coddling and a bazillion passes, some take Bourbon... sometimes it's great to get them so pissed at you they're going to rip your lungs out with song... sometimes it's something else... other times it's a combination of several.
Old 10th March 2003
  #20
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
You have to make the singer comfertable and it takes some time to figure out what works for them and what doesn't. If your lucky, they've gone through the process a few times and will know. Otherwise, it'll take some experimenting. I always ask if they prefer monitors or headphones and if they don't care they get the cans. Some people prefer to roll from the top every time and some don't so I always ask unless the take was great up until they dropped the ball. Some people prefer to work line by line, others do the comp thing. I've even had people that prefer a handheld mic to anything on a stand. What can you as the AE do about it? Not much.

I'll use vari-speed so they can hit a note that's a little out of their range. I've gotten some singers smoked up (Cheech & Chong style), others prefer liquor. It all depends. Ok, see if you can top this one... Once I had a girl singer in and there was a buzz coming over the mic, I tried different pres, compressors etc. and couldn't find it. So it's gotta be the mic or cable right? I walk into the booth and sure enough, she's got a vibrator going. That's great hun, can you turn it off between takes?
Old 10th March 2003
  #21
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KBOY's Avatar
 

I just got done doing a session that lasted 5 and 1/2 hours. The guy did 6 songs, 4 takes each. 1 to warm up 2 to double and triple and the third to cover up the warm up take. Pitch freaking perfect! Doubled himself to the tee. Heres the clincher. I did a 5 song tape with the same act about 5 years ago and spent 7 days on vocals and 2 months fixing pitch (pre auto tune). This guy has been working! All of the takes were straight through with minimal punch ins.

Just thought I'd share that. I do feel that emotion is the most encounterd problem, then pitch. I can work with pitch if the performance is right. It also helps if the singer has some recording experience under he or shes belt. Being used to there own voice that is.

I have this one artist I'm producing that for the last couple of months would show me songs playing the acoustic and singing. I'd work the tracks out then when it came time for him to track his vocals he would not have the same delivery or tone that he had while showing me the songs. And this new delivery way totally wrong for the songs. So one night I had him record sitting down while playing the guitar and I got flawless tracks that had the emotion and where actually on key. Luckilly he strums with his fingers so it was less difficult to isolate the vocals.

So you never know what you're problems going to be. I just know that I have to get a lot quicker at understanding HOW to get the performance out of the artist.

KBOY
Old 10th March 2003
  #22
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Tim L's Avatar
 

I know these are probably pretty obvious one's but I usualy try to get them laughing when they first come in as an ice breaker sort of thing. I'll do this with whoever's involved in the session but most especialy with the vocalist. If they're having trouble finding the right "head space" for the song I'll make a suggestion like picturing the song (the story) as a movie and to try and 'play the part'. The other thing I'll suggest is to not think about the note(s) so much but try and let go and lose themself into wherever the lyrics are trying to bring them. Obviuosly, nothing works all the time and everyone's different but these are some of the things I'll try first.
Old 11th March 2003
  #23
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by KBOY
I have this one artist I'm producing that for the last couple of months would show me songs playing the acoustic and singing. I'd work the tracks out then when it came time for him to track his vocals he would not have the same delivery or tone that he had while showing me the songs. And this new delivery way totally wrong for the songs. So one night I had him record sitting down while playing the guitar and I got flawless tracks that had the emotion and where actually on key. Luckilly he strums with his fingers so it was less difficult to isolate the vocals.
That bring up an interesting point. What do you do for the people that have to play and sing at the same time? I've encountered a few people where the two are so intertwined that they can't be seperated without suffering. You get a mysterious 'extra' guitar track that isn't really a guitar.
Old 11th March 2003
  #24
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KBOY's Avatar
 

the worst part about this situation was that the vocalist CANNOT really play guitar!
Old 11th March 2003
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Renie's Avatar
 

Re: Problem Vocalists. Or are they all??? HOHO.

Quote:
Originally posted by slipperman
Heyo.

I got one for you guys who wear both AE and RP hats.....

What's the WORST problem you can have recording a singer in your estimation?

Is it pitch?

Diction?

Dynamics?

Phrasing?



If ya HAD to pick one that most completely discourages/angers/ bothers/whatevers you.... What is it?

I'll start.

Attitude.

If get a kid with a bad attitude, I CAN'T seem to help him work on the other stuff as well.

This may seem like a coy 'end run' type of question BUT....

I've met and worked with guys who'd RATHER deal with a kid with a crazy attitude than any of the others.

Type 'B' bruisers.

WhaddaYaThink?

SM.
All the difficulties you mention are important and beyond the technicalities I think LACK of ENERGY is the worst problem to deal with. The whole body needs to be warmed up, alive and ready to flow. There needs to be a connection between the body the mind the spirit.

People who won't step up and be counted push my buttons.

A lot of what Thrillfactor says is so spot on. The creative energy I expect from a vocalist needs to emanate from me. It's my responsibility to set the tone. I'm becoming much more aware of that. Also Thrill is right IMO about keeping critical energy very much in check.
Old 13th March 2003
  #26
Gear interested
 
Marshall's Avatar
 

The worst singer to deal with is the one who can't sing but truly believes that he/she can. A "singer" that can't hear it's out of tune, or feel that it's out of time is beyond help.
Unfortunately I've worked with quite a few of these over the years. Thankfully I've worked with some really good ones too, and they are a joy.
Old 13th March 2003
  #27
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Marshall
The worst singer to deal with is the one who can't sing but truly believes that he/she can. A "singer" that can't hear it's out of tune, or feel that it's out of time is beyond help.
Exactly! No approach, gentle or tough, stern or encouraging is going to work with someone who thinks they just turned in a great take when they didn't. The level of 'denial' or whatever it you want to call it is sometimes scary. There are so many more singers in this category than guitarists or drummers- I guess it is just the nature of the instrument.

My pet peeve is the singers doing the soul/R&B glissandos and not really _nailing all the pitches. That type of singing - where the word 'the' has 8 syllables - is annoying enough when it is done right. I have found it impossible to explain to some people that they are not doing the same thing as (Big Name pyrotechnic R&B singer) They somehow think that if they slid _through the note on their way to some other note that they "hit" it.
Old 14th March 2003
  #28
Jr. Gear Slut 2nd class
 
chessparov's Avatar
 

I prefer the classy melisma of Sam Cooke and Aretha much more.
Along with Bing, Nat King Cole, and Sinatra for standards...

Chris
Old 16th March 2003
  #29
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

A band is a good drummer and a singer (maybe even a good song) rhythm, melody. There are many different types of music. Delivery comes in different forms for different music.
Delivery. Attitude may come in handy but it may also sink the ship, loose lips.
Recording Death Metal singers who growl subsonics and making it cut through a mix.
Whatever it is and whatever it takes to make it work is the job of an AE, You have to keep an open mind about what it is that "music" is. As an AE the job is "to record". That should make it simpler for most.
I have used so many different techniques (some of them down right evil) for getting good tracks down that I don't remember all of them. Sometimes you have to piss somebody off, put up an obstacle for someone to break through. There are artists who don't need this and have complete control of their voices and their spirit and they come prepared. In these cases it's better to be prepared also with using different micing. techniques.
I recorded a singer who sang with the John Hendricks group who was doing 6 part harmonies that were coming out perfect but they were a little flat emotionally, so we did them over with different emotional characters for each part, as if there were really 6 different people. We had names for each voice so if we had to punch in on a track we would say " let's punch in on Mugsy" (or Sherman, Mabel etc...) and the tracks had life from that point on.
You have to be involved, recording Music is not just a job, it's a passion. You must be a well rounded individual to do it well.
I went to school for music, I read and write. I know musicians well and I know music well. I'm also interested in Art and Theater and Literature etc... I've also hung in the street, spent thousands of hours in studios, even sleeping in (a yearly membership to the Russian Baths helped the hygenic aspect).
Anyway it changes with every artist, that's all I had to say
Old 17th March 2003
  #30
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Re: Problem Vocalists. Or are they all??? HOHO.

Quote:
Originally posted by slipperman
Heyo.

I got one for you guys who wear both AE and RP hats.....

What's the WORST problem you can have recording a singer in your estimation?

Is it pitch?

Diction?

Dynamics?

Phrasing?
.
If the phrasing is right then probably everything else is, too. (or at least close).

In any case, I'll do almost anything to avoid separating out the various factors of a performance, because it takes forever to put them back together again. Good jokes, good food, record everything and hope (wait) for the best.

I love everything about working with singers.

-R
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