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Making PT work for you
Old 5th May 2007
  #31
Lives for gear
 
juniorhifikit's Avatar
 

Hey Russ,

I think that's really cool that your interest has been piqued regarding mixing in ProTools. While there is a learning curve (as with any new tool set), it's not unlike mixing on a new (different) console in a new (different) studio. If the console is dark sounding, we add more high end EQ, etc. There are a lot of ways to make DAW mixing less "flat". For example, everyone loves a PCM 42 - it has a wierd limiter built into the front end and a non-linear bandwidth. In a DAW, you can put a limiter in front of a vanilla delay, and a filter and feed it back on it's self: voila, character.

I'm sure with your talent and experience you can make it work for you. Looking foward to hearing the results, if and when you do give it a go.
Old 5th May 2007
  #32
no ssl yet
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Elevado View Post
hello tchad,

i hope you're having fun as i had, at the guest spot here. i finished up my Q&A just before you. it was quite hard remembering all the things i did but it was great fun. hope it all goes well for you too...

first i wanted to tell you that i enjoy listening to your work. nice to hear other people doing creative mixing and apporoach. i couldn't resist posting something on this thread. during my Q&A, i've made it quite clear that i'm not the biggest fan of mixing ITB. i'm wondering if jules filtered out some of the negative responses to my posts? (never would edit a guests posts! - Jules heh )i was suprised (as other people) that you're mixing primarily ITB. i've not been able to embrace the technology, sound or ergonmics of DAW's. i'm still doing about 75% of my tracking/mixing from and to tape. i know a lot of veteran engineer/producers that have gone completely DAW and to me it seemed like more convenience than preference. i see that you've got all the latest and greatest plug-ins and such but i still don't know how you could completely abandon the analog desk and outboard? i could just be completely ignorant because of my limited experience, but i'm curious to know your views from one experienced engineer to another.

--has the transition been a combination of convenience, budget and because you love the sound, editing and manipulation possibilities? or is it because you just want to try something new and nothing technically related at all?

--since you've had so much exposure to the best gear in the world, do you feel your DAW system and mixing ITB compromises depth and warmth as compared to an analog desk and outboard? or do you feel you can generally achieve the same results and all things are equal?

--what convertors and clocking do you prefer? i guess you're using less D/A these days but nonetheless, what's your preferences?

-- and what's your take on the fader at "0" equals optimum resolution theory. it's an issue that is not mentioned much and i'm wondering how much of that is a factor ITB. what's your thoughts?


all the best
This is like watching a great movie. Can someone please have Shipley and Dave P chime in with their opinions as well while I learn from the different perspectives.thumbsup
Old 6th May 2007
  #33
mongrell mixer
 
tchadb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by talldean View Post
hey tchad, like everyone else around here, i'm a big fan, and when i see your name on a cd, i know i have to listen. ron sexsmith's whereabouts and suzanne vega's nine objects kick my ass when i listen, and usually my client freak out at how good they sound. the bottom end on nine objects especially is unbeleivable. i have no idea how you do it. anyway, are you using higher sample rates in pt and do you use the urs api "550" or the "560" eq's? or both. thanks for being around and letting us ask you stupid questions like the one i just posted

Thank you,
I go with what I'm given sample rate wise but when I record from scratch it's most often 48/24.
The URS 550 style is what I use most.
Old 6th May 2007
  #34
Lives for gear
 
AMIEL's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Elevado View Post
hello tchad,

i hope you're having fun as i had, at the guest spot here. i finished up my Q&A just before you. it was quite hard remembering all the things i did but it was great fun. hope it all goes well for you too...

first i wanted to tell you that i enjoy listening to your work. nice to hear other people doing creative mixing and apporoach. i couldn't resist posting something on this thread. during my Q&A, i've made it quite clear that i'm not the biggest fan of mixing ITB. i'm wondering if jules filtered out some of the negative responses to my posts? (never would edit a guests posts! - Jules heh )i was suprised (as other people) that you're mixing primarily ITB. i've not been able to embrace the technology, sound or ergonmics of DAW's. i'm still doing about 75% of my tracking/mixing from and to tape. i know a lot of veteran engineer/producers that have gone completely DAW and to me it seemed like more convenience than preference. i see that you've got all the latest and greatest plug-ins and such but i still don't know how you could completely abandon the analog desk and outboard? i could just be completely ignorant because of my limited experience, but i'm curious to know your views from one experienced engineer to another.

--has the transition been a combination of convenience, budget and because you love the sound, editing and manipulation possibilities? or is it because you just want to try something new and nothing technically related at all?

--since you've had so much exposure to the best gear in the world, do you feel your DAW system and mixing ITB compromises depth and warmth as compared to an analog desk and outboard? or do you feel you can generally achieve the same results and all things are equal?

--what convertors and clocking do you prefer? i guess you're using less D/A these days but nonetheless, what's your preferences?

-- and what's your take on the fader at "0" equals optimum resolution theory. it's an issue that is not mentioned much and i'm wondering how much of that is a factor ITB. what's your thoughts?


all the best
Wow I can not wait for the answer for this great question.....reat Russell!thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
Old 6th May 2007
  #35
mongrell mixer
 
tchadb's Avatar
 

2 bus

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsnare View Post
Hey Tchad, Dave McNair here. How did you arrive at the ML 4000 on the 2 mix? Did you try any of the SSL style emulations? Just curious. I've been mixing totally ITB these days as well, and I'm lovin it. Good to 'see' you.
Dave
Hi Dave,
I keep trying things. None of the combinations work on everything. There have been mixes which sounded better through the L3's, others the SSL, but the ML4000 sounds best on my current project. I think that's just the way it's going to be, always different, and that's what's so great about the box. Keeps you on your toes and it's quick and easy to try all the varied models.
Can't wait to hear what you're up to Dave.
Old 6th May 2007
  #36
mongrell mixer
 
tchadb's Avatar
 

ITB woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Elevado View Post
hello tchad,

i hope you're having fun as i had, at the guest spot here. i finished up my Q&A just before you. it was quite hard remembering all the things i did but it was great fun. hope it all goes well for you too...

first i wanted to tell you that i enjoy listening to your work. nice to hear other people doing creative mixing and apporoach. i couldn't resist posting something on this thread. during my Q&A, i've made it quite clear that i'm not the biggest fan of mixing ITB. i'm wondering if jules filtered out some of the negative responses to my posts? (never would edit a guests posts! - Jules heh )i was suprised (as other people) that you're mixing primarily ITB. i've not been able to embrace the technology, sound or ergonmics of DAW's. i'm still doing about 75% of my tracking/mixing from and to tape. i know a lot of veteran engineer/producers that have gone completely DAW and to me it seemed like more convenience than preference. i see that you've got all the latest and greatest plug-ins and such but i still don't know how you could completely abandon the analog desk and outboard? i could just be completely ignorant because of my limited experience, but i'm curious to know your views from one experienced engineer to another.

--has the transition been a combination of convenience, budget and because you love the sound, editing and manipulation possibilities? or is it because you just want to try something new and nothing technically related at all?

--since you've had so much exposure to the best gear in the world, do you feel your DAW system and mixing ITB compromises depth and warmth as compared to an analog desk and outboard? or do you feel you can generally achieve the same results and all things are equal?

--what convertors and clocking do you prefer? i guess you're using less D/A these days but nonetheless, what's your preferences?

-- and what's your take on the fader at "0" equals optimum resolution theory. it's an issue that is not mentioned much and i'm wondering how much of that is a factor ITB. what's your thoughts?


all the best
Hi Russell, it's a combination of all you mentioned but also, I'm not that picky when it comes to subtle differences in gear you have to A/B to hear.
Economy and convenience were factors but I've always had problems in the analog world too. Things rarely came back off tape the way I sent them.
In many ways I think I'm getting better results ITB but it takes me longer to do a mix. What is that?? Maybe when I have a few years of mixing ITB under my belt I'll be faster. It took me many years to learn how to mix in analog, still learning, and now the tools change completely. I think I just need practice to get my speed back.
I don't know much about clocking, converters and such. I'm mixing In The Box right out of the box. PT HD 192 converters sound great to me. If there's something better out there and my budget allows, I'll look into it, someday.
When I started mixing ITB I'd put up DATs, records, CDs, to check general timbre and depth of analog recordings against my current mix. I thought my current was sounding as good or better. I really didn't find any significant downside sonically with the new system. I had heard the depth loss years ago on an older system which is why I waited until now.
I'm not sure I know about the optimum resolution theory. Is it the higher the level the more bits are utilized therefore better quality? Something to do with that? I remember hearing about it some time ago so I started checking to see if all my fades degraded as they went down. I couldn't hear a problem. My ears just aren't that good.
I own my own studio. I'm swingin'. I couldn't have done it analog and be sure I could work everyday. I'm out in the country and couldn't get maintenance much less afford it. I also don't want to be checking tape line ups everyday, I'm well over that.
Proof is in the pudding though. The records you hear from me now are ITB. I'm sure I'll be reading about some of them and these issues right here very soon. Let me know what you think. Am I crazy??? Let me know.
Music is changing, I'm changing, and I don't want to make the same sounds forever. What better time to change up.
Old 7th May 2007
  #37
Gear Head
 
fadista's Avatar
 

analog and pt

hello Tchad, big thanks for doing this and for some albums that I truly love.

I'm mixing mostly on an analogue desk, fed from pro tools. I've been giving some thought to mixing ITB, but there are a few things that keep me from it. Especialy Compression.
You've mentioned that you use analogue compressors sometimes, how do you integrate them in your mix? What I mean is, do you insert them back into pro tools (I gess you do since you're not summing analogue)?
What if you want to compress a Kick individualy, but you also want to compress the whole drum mix, do you go thru the multiple DA\AD conversions?
These are just some of my problems with mixing ITB right now. Just curious about how you deal with these things.

thanks
Old 7th May 2007
  #38
mongrell mixer
 
tchadb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fadista View Post
hello Tchad, big thanks for doing this and for some albums that I truly love.

I'm mixing mostly on an analogue desk, fed from pro tools. I've been giving some thought to mixing ITB, but there are a few things that keep me from it. Especialy Compression.
You've mentioned that you use analogue compressors sometimes, how do you integrate them in your mix? What I mean is, do you insert them back into pro tools (I gess you do since you're not summing analogue)?
What if you want to compress a Kick individualy, but you also want to compress the whole drum mix, do you go thru the multiple DA\AD conversions?
These are just some of my problems with mixing ITB right now. Just curious about how you deal with these things.

thanks
Thanks.
I have various compressors and FX set up on inserts and sends all labled in my IO page.
My drum bus compressors are plugs now so it would only be the individual track inserts that get converted, although I wouldnt care about multi converts. Bounce it around, lose a little quality. I can't hear that stuff anyway. Delay comp seems to keep it all in order but if there is a problem I nudge.
Old 7th May 2007
  #39
Lives for gear
 
AMIEL's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tchad blake View Post
Hi Russell, it's a combination of all you mentioned but also, I'm not that picky when it comes to subtle differences in gear you have to A/B to hear.
Economy and convenience were factors but I've always had problems in the analog world too. Things rarely came back off tape the way I sent them.
In many ways I think I'm getting better results ITB but it takes me longer to do a mix. What is that?? Maybe when I have a few years of mixing ITB under my belt I'll be faster. It took me many years to learn how to mix in analog, still learning, and now the tools change completely. I think I just need practice to get my speed back.
I don't know much about clocking, converters and such. I'm mixing In The Box right out of the box. PT HD 192 converters sound great to me. If there's something better out there and my budget allows, I'll look into it, someday.
When I started mixing ITB I'd put up DATs, records, CDs, to check general timbre and depth of analog recordings against my current mix. I thought my current was sounding as good or better. I really didn't find any significant downside sonically with the new system. I had heard the depth loss years ago on an older system which is why I waited until now.
I'm not sure I know about the optimum resolution theory. Is it the higher the level the more bits are utilized therefore better quality? Something to do with that? I remember hearing about it some time ago so I started checking to see if all my fades degraded as they went down. I couldn't hear a problem. My ears just aren't that good.
I own my own studio. I'm swingin'. I couldn't have done it analog and be sure I could work everyday. I'm out in the country and couldn't get maintenance much less afford it. I also don't want to be checking tape line ups everyday, I'm well over that.
Proof is in the pudding though. The records you hear from me now are ITB. I'm sure I'll be reading about some of them and these issues right here very soon. Let me know what you think. Am I crazy??? Let me know.
Music is changing, I'm changing, and I don't want to make the same sounds forever. What better time to change up.
Great Answer Tchad!!!

Do you have any consideration o procedures mixing ITB that you realized helps you to make a better mix?...maybe gain structure...overloading a bit the EFX..etc??

Thanks!
Old 7th May 2007
  #40
mongrell mixer
 
tchadb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMIEL View Post
Great Answer Tchad!!!

Do you have any consideration o procedures mixing ITB that you realized helps you to make a better mix?...maybe gain structure...overloading a bit the EFX..etc??

Thanks!
Nothing I'm aware of. Just twiddling until.........
Old 10th May 2007
  #41
Lives for gear
 
amost's Avatar
 

Quote:
Bounce it around, lose a little quality. I can't hear that stuff anyway.
Tchad...you're my new hero.
Thanks for sharing all the info....and there's been alot.
Old 11th May 2007
  #42
Gear Nut
 
supafuzz's Avatar
 

m-tron get it working yet?

I had the same problems and figured it out
let me know if i can help...I got mine working like a dream but it took
some figuring out. It's one of my all time favorite programs!

thanks
Harley
Old 11th May 2007
  #43
Lives for gear
 
matta's Avatar
 

Quote:
Music is changing, I'm changing, and I don't want to make the same sounds forever. What better time to change up.
Tchad you read like a philosopher... I'm thinking of making a thread with 'classic' Tchad one-liners (and scattered over these pages are MANY), with your permission would love to frame those words in my studio...

I've only been 'making records' for 10 years and feel like I'm just a 'newbie' and while I've had very little experience with tape per say (ADAT's were the 'rage' when I started out) I have been using an console to mix, though it has been in storage for at least a year.

With the advent of me setting up my own space I've gone totally ITB, that is not to say I don't have some nice analog goodies on the 'front end' but starting to enjoy the box process more and more and it is nice to read of yet another advocate for ITB, esp. from someone whose work has been such an inspiration.

Both (Plugs and Hardware) have intrinsic qualities of beauty and I think people forget that sometimes, as you shared....

Quote:
Just twiddling until.........
I'm def. going to have to check out the URS plugs. I know you are partial to the API's but have you tried the Neve emulations as well?

Thanks again for doing this, it has made for fantastic reading!

Cheers

Matt
Old 11th May 2007
  #44
mongrell mixer
 
tchadb's Avatar
 

THX

Quote:
Originally Posted by matta View Post
Tchad you read like a philosopher... I'm thinking of making a thread with 'classic' Tchad one-liners (and scattered over these pages are MANY), with your permission would love to frame those words in my studio...

I've only been 'making records' for 10 years and feel like I'm just a 'newbie' and while I've had very little experience with tape per say (ADAT's were the 'rage' when I started out) I have been using an console to mix, though it has been in storage for at least a year.

With the advent of me setting up my own space I've gone totally ITB, that is not to say I don't have some nice analog goodies on the 'front end' but starting to enjoy the box process more and more and it is nice to read of yet another advocate for ITB, esp. from someone whose work has been such an inspiration.

Both (Plugs and Hardware) have intrinsic qualities of beauty and I think people forget that sometimes, as you shared....



I'm def. going to have to check out the URS plugs. I know you are partial to the API's but have you tried the Neve emulations as well?

Thanks again for doing this, it has made for fantastic reading!

Cheers

Matt
Thank you for the note. Quote all you like.
URS Neves are cool as well, I use them and the Fultec too.
Old 11th May 2007
  #45
mongrell mixer
 
tchadb's Avatar
 

M-traum-atic

Quote:
Originally Posted by supafuzz View Post
I had the same problems and figured it out
let me know if i can help...I got mine working like a dream but it took
some figuring out. It's one of my all time favorite programs!

thanks
Harley
I might take you up on that.
Old 12th May 2007
  #46
Gear Nut
 
supafuzz's Avatar
 

cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by tchad blake View Post
I might take you up on that.
just shoot me an e-mail and I'll be happy to guide you thru it
studio@zerovillerecording.com
Old 16th May 2007
  #47
Gear maniac
 
Nerdyrocker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tchad blake View Post
Music is changing, I'm changing, and I don't want to make the same sounds forever.
This has to be one of the most inspirational quotes I have read in a while. Thanks a ton Tchad!
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