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Archiving for the future?
Old 10th June 2004
  #1
Lives for gear
 
Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Archiving for the future?

OK so we pretty much got a digital standard for recording thesedays, for better or worse PT. (please no flaming here on the merits of PT.. thats been done to death)

But there is not real definitive digital archival format that will work progressively with each generation of new HW/SW, let alone a medium that will survive the test of time. I mean look @ CDR's, hardrives etc they are allready showing problems after a few years. So are people happy archiving thier works on whate ver they feel is good enough or is it time to try to create some kind of international archival standard/fromat and or medium so that the generations of digital to come will be working properly without errors/glitches etc etc

I mean for all its inherent problems and weaknesses with tape, its a relatively stable format that **** IF STORED WELL AND CORRECTLY***** is good for 10 years with no trouble and more. Sure it may need a bit of a betty crocker in the over but more often than not they are still useable.. even if its only for a few passes, which is more than a screwed digital format.

What are people here doing for archival purposes?


Please discuss
Wiggy
Old 10th June 2004
  #2
Lives for gear
 
spectacular g's Avatar
 

Old 10th June 2004
  #3
Gear interested
 

Re: Archiving for the future?

Quote:
Originally posted by Wiggy Neve Slut mean for all its inherent problems and weaknesses with tape, its a relatively stable format that **** IF STORED WELL AND CORRECTLY***** is good for 10 years with no trouble and more.
I have an archive (mostly graphic design, some audio) made using Retrospect (for searchability) and Sony SCSI or firewire burners to CDR, that stretches back to 1995, stored in cool/dark conditions, no trouble recalling anything so far. Generally Mitsubishi or Emtec/BASF media, some Sony or Verbatim sprinkled in there. I might switch to DVD sometime in the next couple of years for more capacity per media - CDR is a bit painful for audio archiving in that respect.

John Pitcairn

-------------------------------------------------------------
Logic Control emulation for generic midi controllers:
LC Xmu demo: http://www.opuslocus.com/lcxmu/
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Old 10th June 2004
  #4
Captain
 
Mike Shipley's Avatar
 

That's a very good question Wiggy , there's been a lot of talk about it. I was approached by a major audio manufacturer recently about the idea of having a central database like a virtual bank or whatever that supposedly is completely secure where every label would store and access all their masters from....a wild idea but they are dead serious. As for right know it's such a hodge podge , even trying to get the right tapes for a session can be hit and miss !!!!
Old 10th June 2004
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Froombosch's Avatar
 

When there will be a centralised databank, they will need to be in two different places with identical archives. Else a fire could destroy a lot!

I heared a lot of good rumours about Tanyo Yuden CD-R's? Or are they only really good for mastering? I had some with problems (a layer came off).

Harrie
Old 10th June 2004
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
I think this is a vital issue that needs to be sourced and looked into seriously.

On a local note Mike.. i heard that Sony have a dedicated faciltiy up in Sydney that has special vault especially for storing masters that is ontrolled to the 'enth degree electronically for temp/light/humidity etc etc etc.. Its good to see a label taking proactive steps in storing masters..

Can any Syndey slutz verify this or was it AE heresay?

Cheers
Wiggy
Old 10th June 2004
  #7
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juniorhifikit's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by shipshape
... As for right know it's such a hodge podge , even trying to get the right tapes for a session can be hit and miss !!!!
I went to a mastering session last year where the label, who had been holding the master tapes, sent all but reel1 of the mixes. Reel 1 contained the tones and the master mix! We ended up mastering off the stems from my ProTools rig.

I always make my own archives on DVD.
Old 10th June 2004
  #8
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

There is no question that this is a huge issue. For most of us, 2 firewire drives and a DVD of each file should be enough.

The major labels need to be much more secure. Not only should they be having multiple copies in multiple countries in great conditions but they should also keep updating that storage.

The even bigger question is what happens in 20 years when they want to remix a "No Doubt" record in Mac OSXXXIV and Digidesign has been long out of business and the new standard is "Super Sonic Edit Pro".

Not to mention all those plugins that haven't even made it to OSX. Or some custom VST plugin.

Record companies are really not getting Masters IMHO when they accept Pro Tools. Some of the signature sound of the record is in those plugins. Gone Forever.

There needs to be a Format that just takes all the Audio Files printed with effects and puts them in a folder as plain old Wav or AIFF files. And all DAW's would have the ability to convert sessions to them. That would make a Master.

Peace
Old 10th June 2004
  #9
Gear maniac
 
travista00's Avatar
 

print all vital effects plug-ins before backing-up and archiving. though you already printed those before you handed off to the mix engineer, right??
Old 10th June 2004
  #10
Lives for gear
It's been a huge issue here. In the last 10 years we've seen DA 88s, Akai DD1500 & Dr 16 and now Pro Tools. I've got DA 88 tapes, DDS3, DDS4, VXA and now firewire. What a mess! I used Mezzo until version 4 and then it became a complete pain. I'm going to stick to firewire drives for the forseeable future. There is a need piece of software called CopyAgent which I would highly recommend for anyone backing up to disks. It allows you to only backup things that have changed.

Could I ask you guys who are backing up to DVD how exactly you are doing it. I wouldn't mind making a DVD backup at the end of a project as well a a firewire.

Cheers
Old 10th June 2004
  #11
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juniorhifikit's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Beech
...I'm going to stick to firewire drives for the forseeable future. There is a need piece of software called CopyAgent which I would highly recommend for anyone backing up to disks. It allows you to only backup things that have changed.

Could I ask you guys who are backing up to DVD how exactly you are doing it. I wouldn't mind making a DVD backup at the end of a project as well a a firewire.

Cheers
"Save Session Copy as...", check "Copy Audio Files", burn the resulting session folder to DVD in Toast.

If you expect those firewire drives to even spin up after being on a shelf for 10 years, you're going to be very sad
Old 10th June 2004
  #12
Lives for gear
 
djui5's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by shipshape
That's a very good question Wiggy , there's been a lot of talk about it. I was approached by a major audio manufacturer recently about the idea of having a central database like a virtual bank or whatever that supposedly is completely secure where every label would store and access all their masters from....a wild idea but they are dead serious. As for right know it's such a hodge podge , even trying to get the right tapes for a session can be hit and miss !!!!


That's genius.....and could be incredible if implemented properly. They can secure the backbone of the internet...I think they can secure this....
Old 13th June 2004
  #13
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

Waiting for BluRay. Incremental backup to a Raid5 array during the project, archive with DSD to BluRay at the projects end. Archives should include tracking and O/D keepers, limited various takes, rough mixes, sessions, printed effects, artists' comments, different mixes and masters etc...
Once it's label property it should be rearchived well within the expiration date of the archival media.
Old 14th June 2004
  #14
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by juniorhifikit
you expect those firewire drives to even spin up after being on a shelf for 10 years, you're going to be very sad
I've been told by people who ought to know that the new fluid-bearing drives most likely WILL spin up after 10 years on a shelf. I'm not ready to bank on it but it's a very interesting development.
Old 16th June 2004
  #15
Gear addict
 
Tim Halligan's Avatar
 

Re: Archiving for the future?

Quote:
Originally posted by Wiggy Neve Slut
OK so we pretty much got a digital standard for recording thesedays, for better or worse PT...
But there is not real definitive digital archival format that will work progressively with each generation of new HW/SW, let alone a medium that will survive the test of time.

Good point. What is really required is an "anything to anything" archive management programme...something along the lines (but in reverse) of AV Media's AV Transfer package: Anything in(video)...OMF,AES31,Vegas, Discrete Edit etc to anything out(audio)...PT,Fairlight,AMS,Paris,OMF etc...start work.
It would be brilliant if someone could bring this backup translator concept to market. Those who've changed platforms would find this invaluable, as we all live and die by our backups, and the years of previous work would still be available to the end-user for updates/remixes etc.

The sticking point will invariably be Digi, who have always declined to release their code to other manufacturers in the DAW market...so export to PT is sometimes problematic for all non-PT users...likewise import from PT. This usually happens after a Digi software update...Bastards!

Media issues still need to be resolved, but we are getting closer...

Cheers,
Tim
Old 16th June 2004
  #16
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

Pyramix will eat anything and spit out anything too.
Now broadcast wave files are generally importable, exportable and easily converted.
When I do PT sessions I select the force compatability box.
The media is the biggest problem with archiving, I still don't trust DVDs and if you think your DDS machine is aligned similarly to another or that the alignment present at the archiving has remained constant and you want to restore something done from your machine or on a different machine from 5 years ago?!! It's worse than watching an old 2" leave its coating on your captstan roller.
I see Drive Sized solid state memory (prone to zapping though) as a particularly bright future when the prices drop.
As for methods I've personally adopted the back up everything as you go through the project. When you're finished Archive what you need to keep on multiple sets of media (now it's DVD).
I'm running a 4 drive 144 GB FibreChannel system and backing up over an SAN to a 500 GB Raid5 which serves as an on going back up and a temporary library. When a project is completed I Archive song per song or piece by piece on DVD (usually 1 or luckily 2 songs per disc) with duplicates it can be up to 30 discs per entire project, still less than safety copies. But I would like something like BluRay to get maybe an album side worth of material on the same disc.
I print all effects and include any samples used to construct the piece all in the same folder with the mixes and masters, when it comes time to restore I just restore the whole folder.
I just started with PT6 and I'm looking forward to what digibase can do for my system, although I've already dumped retrospect. It was much easier to select and copy or burn than wade through that nonsense.
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