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Triggering Samples
Old 3rd June 2004
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
Triggering Samples

Mike,

Thank you so much for spending your time and wisdom with us. I'm having a hard time working because I'm having too much fun surfing GS to see what other cool stories you've posted.

When you are mixing a project that you had no prior involvement with, how often to you replace drum samples during mix - and when/if you do, do you augment live sounds or totally replace them?

Thanks Mike,

Kent
Old 3rd June 2004
  #2
Captain
 
Mike Shipley's Avatar
 

Sometime , you just gotta replace or augment the drum sound and that's all there is to it. Hopefully not but sometimes a song just needs a different kind of energy than it has from the drummer, or it's a really crappy recording. I'm all for character so will only do it it I need to .
If I do add to the original drumsound I will use Beat detective to isolate the regions but not to actually "use " beat detective to move the timing. Then I can use any number of ways to augment.
I can region replace which is fast. If its to blend a sound , then tuning is very important so I will tune what ever Im adding with , to the recorded kit. If it has to be a replacement then its a different story.
Even adding snare ambience only , can do the trick . It is different with every session. Sometimes the oddest drum sound gives all the flavour to a record and technically it might suck but it's smallness or whatever might be just the ticket. So its a very song by song thing.
Old 3rd June 2004
  #3
Lives for gear
 
drew's Avatar
 

ambience? can you elaborate? not just adding verb but adding a sample of ambience?
thanks
drew
Old 3rd June 2004
  #4
Captain
 
Mike Shipley's Avatar
 

Yep ambience, for the snare or kick really. if it's applicable then a stereo ambience sample can really help with depth of field. It doesnt have to be loud but it can add a lot of space .You can still keep the sound upfront and punchy but it will keep the kit fom sunding "choked". Again it's such personal taste. I cant remember the last time I used reverb on drums
If you don't have your own library of samples for amb. etc then something like" Drumkit from Hell " can work well cos there are tons of ambience only samples etc.
Old 3rd June 2004
  #5
Gear Head
 
lukas's Avatar
 

wow - that sounds interesting

to me reverb on drums kinda sounds cheap (even if its a good verb....)

I`ll try that one - drumkit from hell is a sample library?
Old 4th June 2004
  #6
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juniorhifikit's Avatar
 

The Clearmountain samples work well also, but they don't have many velocity choices. Lots of engineers cary their own ambience samples. I hear Andy Wallace carries his around on a DAT.
Old 4th June 2004
  #7
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jpaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by drew
ambience? can you elaborate? not just adding verb but adding a sample of ambience?
thanks
drew

That's the Andy Wallace trick. Contrary to popular belief, he adds snare ambiences to the existing drums, and does not always replace the drum itself. If you heard his infamous DAT of samples, you'd probably think they're almost useless upon first listen! very odd but works a charm for him, that's for damn sure.
Old 4th June 2004
  #8
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clip6's Avatar
 

Mike if you were going to do a record like Winger "Pull" in 2004' how would you setup the triggers for Rod? Would you still use a Forat? I don't think you were using PT back then. Thanks again!
Old 4th June 2004
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jpaudio
That's the Andy Wallace trick. Contrary to popular belief, he adds snare ambiences to the existing drums, and does not always replace the drum itself. If you heard his infamous DAT of samples, you'd probably think they're almost useless upon first listen! very odd but works a charm for him, that's for damn sure.
Not that I'm Andy Wallace or Mr. Shipley, the snare trick works wonders for me too. Sounds as natural as any reverb i've heard. Gotta have a cool room for it to work right though.
Old 4th June 2004
  #10
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jpaudio's Avatar
 

Thought i'd add something i've developed in the past year that applies here. On drum sessions, we almost always hire a tech for the session. This guy is amazing, throws on new heads and tunes them to the liking of myself, my partner and the drummer/artist. Once the drums are tuned, mic'd and 100% acceptable by everyone involved, I track a DAW session of single hits, coming through all of the open kit mics. Then after the drums are tracked for the project, my partner and I assess the use of samples, based on the drummer and the songs/vibe happening. I almost always replace the kick with a close-mic single hit, so it's the same drum and tuning as used on that particular project, but now it;s 100% consistent (if that's what is called for, and in the style I most often work with it almost always is). Snare is touchy, i'd say 50% of the time i do the same, replacing the close-mic'd snare track, but i'll do something a little different...I'll go into the single hit session and instead of just grabbing the best close-mic'd shot, i'll blend it with the sound from the OH's and room mics as well. It's usually 40% close mic, 40% stereo OHs, 20% mono front-of-kit room mic. That way, when mixing, i'll have the sound of the snare through the OH and room mics, but can manipulate the actual OH and room tracks without worrying about maintaining the snare presence in them. Has worked a charm.
Old 4th June 2004
  #11
Gear interested
 

Quote:
Mike if you were going to do a record like Winger "Pull" in 2004' how would you setup the triggers for Rod? Would you still use a Forat? I don't think you were using PT back then. Thanks again!
Before protools, the sampler of choice was the "one shot".It is a mod done to the Roland sde3000 dly. Very fast and easy to use.
Old 4th June 2004
  #12
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jpaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by tanker
Before protools, the sampler of choice was the "one shot".It is a mod done to the Roland sde3000 dly. Very fast and easy to use.
Don't forget the AMS DMX and H3000, and Forat!
Old 5th June 2004
  #13
shipshape - "If I do add to the original drumsound I will use Beat detective to isolate the regions but not to actually "use " beat detective to move the timing. Then I can use any number of ways to augment. I can region replace which is fast."

Hey Mike can you elaborate on this a little more? Is there a short cut keystroke that I'm missing to replace drum hits really fast?

And Mike, thanks for all the great replies, it's great to learn some tricks from a true "insider" such as yourself.

shawn
Old 5th June 2004
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
posted by shipshape:
If you don't have your own library of samples for amb. etc then something like" Drumkit from Hell " can work well cos there are tons of ambience only samples etc.
You can always "roll your own" too.

Record tasty snare hits, in rooms of choice.

Fade out the attack.

Save audio in amb. library.

Same method works on your favorite samples too.

This is a real artform which I find intriguing.
Old 5th June 2004
  #15
Captain
 
Mike Shipley's Avatar
 

Absolutely Curve....I've got drives full of drum sounds that I've sampled on sessions where I would get the drummist to give me single hits so that I could use the the ambience or the snare sound from the overheads or whatever , getting them to give many multiple hits of the same drum is the way to go.
After years you can build up quite a collection !!!
There are many times when the producer or artist has wanted me to completely change the drum sound from what was on tape so a good collection comes in handy.

Sometime , you just gotta replace or augment the drum sound and that's all there is to it. Hopefully not but sometimes a song just needs a different kind of energy than it has from the drummer, or it's a really crappy recording. I'm all for character so will only do it it I need to .
If I do add to the original drumsound I will use Beat detective to isolate the regions but not to actually "use " beat detective to move the timing. Then I can use any number of ways to augment.
I can region replace which is fast. If its to blend a sound , then tuning is very important so I will tune what ever Im adding with , to the recorded kit. If it has to be a replacement then its a different story.
Even adding snare ambience only , can do the trick . It is different with every session. Sometimes the oddest drum sound gives all the flavour to a record and technically it might suck but it's smallness or whatever might be just the ticket. So its a very song by song thing.

Yep ambience, for the snare or kick really. if it's applicable then a stereo ambience sample can really help with depth of field. It doesnt have to be loud but it can add a lot of space .You can still keep the sound upfront and punchy but it will keep the kit fom sunding "choked". Again it's such personal taste. I cant remember the last time I used reverb on drums
If you don't have your own library of samples for amb. etc then something like" Drumkit from Hell " can work well cos there are tons of ambience only samples etc.

Absolutely Curve....I've got drives full of drum sounds that I've sampled on sessions where I would get the drummist to give me single hits so that I could use the the ambience or the snare sound from the overheads or whatever , getting them to give many multiple hits of the same drum is the way to go.
After years you can build up quite a collection !!!
There are many times when the producer or artist has wanted me to completely change the drum sound from what was on tape so a good collection comes in handy.
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