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Erik's Attack of the Clones Condenser Microphones
Old 17th December 2002
  #1
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Erik's Attack of the Clones

Old 17th December 2002
  #2
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Erik should have a talk show.... Don'tcha just love to hate him? Very interesting read.
Old 17th December 2002
  #3
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

attack of the clones? who, buttfuktry's clones or other companies? and what country does erik thinks he lives in? first he is paranoid of piracy... now he is paranoid of competition. i wonder how this guy sleeps at night. funniest thing is just by him opening his stupid little mouth he has done more damage to his company than any amount of piracy or competition. such a self defeating little prick.
Old 17th December 2002
  #4
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

you know whats funny about that pultec graph... people stating that audio sounds "better" just running audio through it set flat... but "flat" means not only LOUDER [almost a half DB gain bottom to top] but a rising shelf on the top end by a whole DB...

oddly enough that neither buttfuktry or UAD get the response curve right.... if they were RIGHT, you would see NO LINE vary from the black line. im also curious to see the graph to 20k [really 50k+++ with analog gear] instead of leaving off at 10k like the graph shows... im guessing something wrong is happening up there that made him limit it to only 10k.

also, the ONLY point that buttfuktry is within .1db is from 2k to 5k... everywhere else its .2db or GREATER.

this is just another load of politics.... loaded as the UAD charts are... doesnt really matter how the graphs are FLAT... it matters how the curves follow the real unit in OPERATION from unity to +/- full changes and every setting inbetween.



and is it just me... or if pultecs were SO GREAT... then why were people tossing them in the trash a while back? momentary lapse of sanity?
Old 17th December 2002
  #5
no ssl yet
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I thought it was interesting. If I were in his shoes, I'd probably feel the same way?

Alpha My monitor must be toooo far away. I thought u wanted Eric to SUCK a self defeating little prick LOLrollz grudge
Old 17th December 2002
  #6
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Anyone know where there's a graph comparison of the Manley to the originals????
Old 17th December 2002
  #7
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet
I thought u wanted Eric to SUCK a self defeating little prick LOLrollz grudge
well, that would be erik sucking a little oxygenhose... thats the least he could do for his glaring reviews of his butt plugs.
Old 17th December 2002
  #8
Gear Head
 

Hmm.. just wondering, is this thread gonna turn out as it did on Rec Pit?

Note to self: Stay out of this one
Old 17th December 2002
  #9
Gear addict
 

Perhaps Waves should rant and rave about how Erik "stole" the classic compressor name. The C1 compressor was out years before bombfactory and has a preset called "classic compressor."
Old 17th December 2002
  #10
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Who cares who came up with the idea first? It's a freaking knockoff concept. Clever marketing IMO.

It still makes no sense to me that graph comparisons are even an issue. It's like shooting at a moving target with your eyes closed.

I remember a time when an La2a/Pultec either sounded good, sounded bad, sounded right or sounded wrong. ....then again I'm not much for listening to math, even while on 'ludes.

I use BF stuff and own it. So shoot me.
Old 17th December 2002
  #11
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LA Audio made a "Classic Compressor" and a "Classic Channel" in the 90's.
As a matter of fact, they had a whole series of "Classic" gear.

Erik should stick to product development and hire someone to do the talking.

/Mats
Old 17th December 2002
  #12
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EveAnna Manley's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet
Anyone know where there's a graph comparison of the Manley to the originals????
We could print AudioPrecision graphs all day long, if we had the time, or the purpose... our Pultecs aren't trying to be clones of the old ones so there's no purpose getting all hot and bothered about comparing them except just for comparison's sake.



Still, beyond basic frequency response curves, as talked about on the "About Distortion" thread, there are *so* many other measured parameters that make something sound the way it does. Particularily with the transformer coupled (x3) original Pultecs, the saturation and different distortion products and harmonic characteristics of the transformers contribute greatly to the whole sound of the unit. And differently at different operation levels and frequencies of course.

Has any digital plug-in gotten close to modelling that stuff?
Old 18th December 2002
  #13
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

whats the point of modelling old stuff anyway? make something new and inventive for a plugin.
Old 18th December 2002
  #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by EveAnna Manley

Has any digital plug-in gotten close to modelling that stuff?
That's just it. It still comes down to opinion. IMO, UA has gotten a good bit closer to sounding like some iron and tubes in the circuit than anything else I've heard in a DAW. But that's just me (well, and a few other people I know with ears, to be honest).

And I'm with you on the graphs, especially as far as freq response. Like a real Pultec inserted in the path and set to flat doesn't immediately change the timbre. I mean, of course it does. Which specific unit and how much can you hear it when it's set to "flat" is the only question.

It's all personal taste, because it's about music. Why some vendors feel compelled to try to deem their sonic way as "right" and everybody else's way as "wrong" is completely beyond me.

That said, soon we'll have a pretty unique situation develop. There will be two competing plugin versions, complete with graphical face plates, of several of the same vintage devices. On the same platform, namely Pro Tools.

Once that happens and everybody who wishes can do a direct head to head for themselves, will all become crystal clear, unanimity prevail, the clouds part and "the" choice become obvious?

Nah. Different strokes.

So why throw down? Just comes off as insecure, IMO.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 18th December 2002
  #15
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
Just comes off as insecure, IMO.
yep...
Old 18th December 2002
  #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
make something new and inventive for a plugin.
EXACTLY!!! I think it's great to have comparisons, like New Kids on the Block to Backstreet Boys. But they are all going to be different any way, why not just create something that sonically sounds amazing, warm, accurate (or not), maybe like the Sony Oxford (hope that's not modelled from anything other than the Oxford). Like EveAnna said, there are transformers playing big roles as well as Mogami cable to hosa cable, balanced power to unbalanced, different D/As, speakers, etc.
I just wish plugin manufacturers would advertise that there plugs sound great if they sound great and not just always compare so rigidly.

I also don't think anything can replace having an amazing analog front end, but that is another thread that has already been started about 10,000 times.
Old 18th December 2002
  #17
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Cape's Avatar
 

I think Erik's rants are productive in the sense that it encourages discussion and proof.
It seems that any goverment advertising watchdog could have a real problem with all of this (testing etc). Even though the audio market is very large, advertising standards authority's don't have the same controls on 'claims by manufactures' as they might have over McDon's if they where to say big mac's reduce weight.

You get to try the product.....cool.

If all you do is believe hype...fool.

I would like to know if the noise generated by a BF plug when no audio is passing through is excatly the same noise made by originals. I ain't got one. Thats test 1 out the way.
Old 18th December 2002
  #18
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Erik's points seem to be :

1. That he is being unfairly copied
2. That the competition are making inaccurate marketing claims
3. That, while it's a tough thing for him to have to do, he is standing up for the truth

Point 1. Is hard to take seriously because he is in the business of copies himself. The issue of what's fair in the business of copies is hard to see clearly. It doesn't help his cause though when he gets territorial over expressions such as 'classic compressors'.

Point 2. I don't know. Examining charts, graphs and hype can be useful. It is taboo-breaking to do it in the way Erik does it, and hard to trust as he does not appear to be objective.

Point 3. He probably deeply believes this. Whether it's delusional I don't know. Maybe there's truth in it.


Erik is certainly challenging boundaries. He does it in a gauche and unpleasant way but is there any honour in his mission? I don't know.


I was going to post a pie chart of my analysis but ...
Old 18th December 2002
  #19
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
posted by Renie:
I was going to post a pie chart of my analysis but ...
Renie,

Thanks for reminding me: I GOTTA GET MY PIES OUTTA THE OVEN!!!

Seriously, though...

BF Erik is taking some heat, but he's bringing plenty on himself too.

I know the BF stuff is cool, but Erik needs to delegate to a PR staff.

This is not the only cut-throat racket in the world. But it is cut-throat.

No tears for the creatures of the night.
Old 18th December 2002
  #20
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e-cue's Avatar
 

*Sniff Sniff* What's that smell?

Quote:
Originally posted by EveAnna Manley
We could print AudioPrecision graphs all day long, if we had the time, or the purpose... our Pultecs aren't trying to be clones of the old ones so there's no purpose getting all hot and bothered about comparing them except just for comparison's sake.
Wow. I'd think this would be a part of standard R&D for anything you put the Pultec name on. Why market something with the name "Pultec" on it that isn't trying to be a pultec? This is bullsh¡t, and everyone knows it, but that's the thing- they DON'T KNOW because all they see is "Pultec", not "Pultec, but not really, actually it's a Pultec only in name, these are not the droids you are looking for"™. Otherwise, I'm sure people would call em like they see em. I supposed "enhanced pultec" make more sense, but what about the Langevin unit?

This is a full of sh¡t marketing grift as far as I can see. Not to mention the conflicting reports of wether or not you actually got permission to use the name. Of course you aren't going to print audio precision graphs- you have something to hide.

Did someone step in something? Everyone check their shoes.
Old 18th December 2002
  #21
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EveAnna Manley's Avatar
 

Well, we have been building the Manley Enhanced Pultec since 1990 and the Langevin all-discrete version since 1991 or 1992. R&D took place a looooooooooong time ago doncha think?

Those units are what they are by now, they still sell well, and they are their own things which ain't Pultec clones. Not one component used in our stuff was ever used in an old Pultec. the passive EQ sections resemble the old guys in schematic form. The power supplies and make up gain amps are our own designs.

We use the Pultec name because Eugene Shenk of Pulse Techniques gave us his personal blessings, face to face, to do so, and refused to accept any royalties we offered him. I was there.

Is that a good answer?
Old 18th December 2002
  #22
no ssl yet
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OK (and I say this as a Manley enhanced pultec owner (Stereo limited edition))

Eveanna,

Would this not be like me making a new car that uses Bently's body and my own engine and calling it an "enhanced Bentley"?

So I guess bomb factory (Since their unit looks like the original) Should say their making "enhanced La2a units.

(Of course this would be find as long as the creator gave his blessing for usinng the name) Right???

You say tomato, I say onion. It's all the same right????dfegad
Old 18th December 2002
  #23
no ssl yet
Guest
I say this as an end user who (early on before I knew much about gear) got suckered by a dealer. I called to get a pair of pultecs. The dealer laughed and said "Man they haven't been made for years. Except the manley version which is the same. Manley was given the right to remake them from the original owner"

I since purchased one (stereo unit) (from another dealer with a much better personality)

And to say the units still sell alot. It hasn't fetched much on the used market.
.After hearing original pultecs. I'd rather the originals.
Old 19th December 2002
  #24
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by bombguy
We've dramatically upped the ante on what people expect from digital signal processing, and I get emails and phone calls every day from people who appreciate the products we offer as we smooth their transition from analog to digital.

--Erik



keep up the works too Erik .... don't waste too much energy trying to convince the unconvincables ..
Old 19th December 2002
  #25
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally posted by bombguy
To me, the whole analog apples versus digital apples debate is pretty well juiced. Analog as a horse has run its course, and the jockeys are considering new mounts.
Hi, Erik. Nice way to enter a discussion, with a live grenade in hand.

You're not going to get many people in an average forum seeing eye to eye on business ethics, unfortunately. Do you have actionable legal grievances? I imagine there are possibilities there, but unless you have patent, trademark, or unfair competitive practices issues that you can work on, it comes down to the laseiz faire shakedown, and the market doesn't always favor whoever is right, even when it knows full well who that is.

The best way to beat the bastards in the marketplace is probably to keep up the innovation. Get some cool stuff to market first. Do you have an RCA BA-6 yet? Maybe Helios, Neve, or Trident A Range eq's? Your company must have some edge in the analog-switching-to-DAW user, so just run with it, since these and other pros are the folks who actually pay for plugins.

Bear
Old 19th December 2002
  #26
Gearslutz.com admin
 
Jules's Avatar
Erik IS a gearslut!

Here is just SOME of the gear he has...

Compressors/Limiters/EQ

Fairchild 660
PYE Compression Unit (2)
Helios F760 (2)
Neve 33609
Teletronix LA-2A (2)
UREI LA-3A (2)
UREI LA-4A (2), LA-5A (2), BL-40 (2)
Altec 436B
Altec 1612 Limiter (2)
Gates Sta-Level
Avalon VT-737SP, VT-747SP
Langevin 251 EQ (8)
Urei 1176LN (4)
DBX 160 (4)
Trident Stereo Limiter
Trident CB-9066 EQ
JOEMEEK SC2
Pultec EQP-1A
Pultec EQH-2 (2)
Trident CB-9066 Parametric EQ (2)
Voce EVC-1 Tube Compressor (2)
Aphex Dominator II
Aphex 661 Compressor (2)
Aphex 662 Gate (2)

Reverbs/Delays

EMT 140 Plate (with remote)
Clover Spring Reverb (2)
Deltalabs Analog Delay (2)
moogerfooger Analog Delay (2)
Lexicon PCM-70
Tel-Ray tube/fluid delays (14)
Roland SRV-2000 (2)
Roland SDE-1000
Tie-lines to stereo chamber

Miscellaneous

Trident A Range Console
Studer A-800 Mk3
Pro Tools 24
Digital Performer 3.0
Equitech balanced AC power
SansAmp PSA-1
Voce tube DI (custom) (2)
Voce tube mic pre (custom)
Assorted tube direct boxes
Eventide H3000S
Panasonic SV-3800 DAT (2)
Dynacord CLS-222 Leslie sim
Roland Vocoder
Way more... too much to list

Mic Preamps

Trident A Range (34)
Helios Silver/Olympic Studios (8)
Langevin 116 (8)
Langevin 5116B (8)
Neve 1290 (2)
Telefunken V72 (2)
Telefunken V76 (2)
Telefunken V78 (2)

Microphones

ELAM 251 (Korby)
Neumann CMV-3 (M7, M8, M9)
Neumann CMV-563 (2)
Neumann/Church U-47 (2)
Neumann U-47FET
Neumann U-67
Neumann U-87
Neumann M-582 (2)
Neumann TLM-170
Neumann SKM-184 (2)
Neumann KM-88i (2)
RCA 77DX
RCA 44
RCA Junior Velocity
RCA Vari-coustic
Coles 4033 (2), 4031
60s Ocktava ribbon mics (4)
Schoeps 221 (2)
Sennheiser MD-441 (2)
Sennheiser MD-421 (2)
Sennheiser MD-425 (4)
Sennheiser MD-104
Shure SM-7
Shure SM-81 (2)
Shure Beta 87 (2), Beta 57 (2)
Shure SM-57 (8), SM-58 (4)
E/V RE-20
Altec 175A (M-29B/tube) (2)
Altec 539A (2)
AKG 414EB (2)
AKG C-1000 (2)
AKG D-30, D-45
AKG D-112
Crown PZM (2)

Monitor Speakers

Westlake BBSM-10
A.D.A.M. S3-A
Yamaha NS-10SM
Auratone 5C
Mackie HR824
Old 19th December 2002
  #27
Gearslutz.com admin
 
Jules's Avatar
Erik IS a gearslut!

Here is just SOME of the gear he has...

Compressors/Limiters/EQ

Fairchild 660
PYE Compression Unit (2)
Helios F760 (2)
Neve 33609
Teletronix LA-2A (2)
UREI LA-3A (2)
UREI LA-4A (2), LA-5A (2), BL-40 (2)
Altec 436B
Altec 1612 Limiter (2)
Gates Sta-Level
Avalon VT-737SP, VT-747SP
Langevin 251 EQ (8)
Urei 1176LN (4)
DBX 160 (4)
Trident Stereo Limiter
Trident CB-9066 EQ
JOEMEEK SC2
Pultec EQP-1A
Pultec EQH-2 (2)
Trident CB-9066 Parametric EQ (2)
Voce EVC-1 Tube Compressor (2)
Aphex Dominator II
Aphex 661 Compressor (2)
Aphex 662 Gate (2)

Reverbs/Delays

EMT 140 Plate (with remote)
Clover Spring Reverb (2)
Deltalabs Analog Delay (2)
moogerfooger Analog Delay (2)
Lexicon PCM-70
Tel-Ray tube/fluid delays (14)
Roland SRV-2000 (2)
Roland SDE-1000
Tie-lines to stereo chamber

Miscellaneous

Trident A Range Console
Studer A-800 Mk3
Pro Tools 24
Digital Performer 3.0
Equitech balanced AC power
SansAmp PSA-1
Voce tube DI (custom) (2)
Voce tube mic pre (custom)
Assorted tube direct boxes
Eventide H3000S
Panasonic SV-3800 DAT (2)
Dynacord CLS-222 Leslie sim
Roland Vocoder
Way more... too much to list
Mic Preamps

Trident A Range (34)
Helios Silver/Olympic Studios (8)
Langevin 116 (8)
Langevin 5116B (8)
Neve 1290 (2)
Telefunken V72 (2)
Telefunken V76 (2)
Telefunken V78 (2)

Microphones

ELAM 251 (Korby)
Neumann CMV-3 (M7, M8, M9)
Neumann CMV-563 (2)
Neumann/Church U-47 (2)
Neumann U-47FET
Neumann U-67
Neumann U-87
Neumann M-582 (2)
Neumann TLM-170
Neumann SKM-184 (2)
Neumann KM-88i (2)
RCA 77DX
RCA 44
RCA Junior Velocity
RCA Vari-coustic
Coles 4033 (2), 4031
60s Ocktava ribbon mics (4)
Schoeps 221 (2)
Sennheiser MD-441 (2)
Sennheiser MD-421 (2)
Sennheiser MD-425 (4)
Sennheiser MD-104
Shure SM-7
Shure SM-81 (2)
Shure Beta 87 (2), Beta 57 (2)
Shure SM-57 (8), SM-58 (4)
E/V RE-20
Altec 175A (M-29B/tube) (2)
Altec 539A (2)
AKG 414EB (2)
AKG C-1000 (2)
AKG D-30, D-45
AKG D-112
Crown PZM (2)

Monitor Speakers

Westlake BBSM-10
A.D.A.M. S3-A
Yamaha NS-10SM
Auratone 5C
Mackie HR824
Old 19th December 2002
  #28
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 



yea yea Jules .... did you have to rub that list in our nose twice ....
Old 19th December 2002
  #29
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e-cue's Avatar
 

O-kay, so most folks don't think Erik is a "people person". Big deal. If I had a quarter for everytime I meet someone I didn't get along with, I'd have more money coming in than Beatles royalties. Erik is very knowledgeable not only about programming, but gear as well. And as a company, he actually DOES listen to what people have to say. For example:

No-KnobsenseTM User Interface (you can specify whether you want knobs that work like knobs, or whether you want knobs that look like knobs, but work like sliders,etc), Pro Tools Automation Accelerators (Control-Option-Command and clicking on the knob you want to automate and Online and Emergency Authorizations .

I mean, on top of this I think everyone would have to agree that BF plug in's are the most popularly stolen crack in digital audio. I've even heard of a crack where you had to mod your registry, and a separate one you just drop in your plug in's folder. It's funny when I get a phone call from another engineer saying "The LA 2A plug in isn't passing audio" or "The Voce Spin is effing up my sound". I tell them to call Bomb Factory and ask them what's wrong, but to have their "crack version" ready.

The more facts and graphs out there, and the less conjecture and rumor passing, the better.
Old 19th December 2002
  #30
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groundcontrol's Avatar
 

I'm not really interested in fanning any flames... However I have to say that BF plugs are some of the few plugins that I find really useful day in day out.
(BTW, thanks for the recent settlement of the upgrade path to HD question for Digi's distributed plugins of yours! )

I, for one , would be interested in an RCA BA-6A plug as mentioned ealier.

And while you're at it why not make a version of EveAnna's Massive Passive... :eek:
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