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Mults and Phase issues
Old 21st September 2004
  #1
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Thread Starter
Mults and Phase issues

I am reading a lot of tips about Mult part like taking your kick and making a duplicate or two in Protools and then compressing the crap out of them and adding eq of flavorl
the question I have is do you need to flip the phase for the duplicate. I thought if two tracks are the same they would cancle each other out. Ther is a lot of talk about multing tracks
thanks
Old 21st September 2004
  #2
I think you have it backwards. If two identical files are mixed together and one is out of phase with the other (180 degrees) then they will cancel out. If you just mix two identical sounds together they just get louder.
Old 21st September 2004
  #3
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Max headroom's Avatar
 

Make sure that you don't have any latency issues brought by plug in , and make sure that they are copied on the same timeline. I have found that even if program have latency compensation it produces some latency on some plugs that can make your kicks sound like they are out of phase . If you get everything right your bunch of copied samples should sound louder


heh
Old 21st September 2004
  #4
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Thread Starter
hi
thank for the information. I am using protools HD. I thought there was no latency but maybe once I copy the track and insert a Joe meek compressor how do know how much latency there is and how to fix it
thanks
Old 21st September 2004
  #5
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5down1up's Avatar
 

mix user here :

watch the " numbers " under the fader ( they are green over here ) . apple + mouseclick changes the display to :

fader level , peak level or delay created by inserts on the individual tracks .

sounds easy but its an endless story

heh
Old 21st September 2004
  #6
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Max headroom's Avatar
 

But that is your problem solved

Old 21st September 2004
  #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Max headroom
I have found that even if program have latency compensation it produces some latency on some plugs that can make your kicks sound like they are out of phase . If you get everything right your bunch of copied samples should sound louder


heh
Yup I found this true with Waves DirectX plug-ins, especially TransX Mod(i love using it on mults!) I haven't tried to see if the VST works better
Old 21st September 2004
  #8
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

I kinda have a ghetto way of doing it...I've been using this trick to "mult" on PT for a while.

I'll bus the kick (for instance) -- Bus 1

I'll create aux ins (two? three?) -- Bus 1

Whatever plug-in(s) I wanna use (on ANY bus), I'll instantiate 'em on each aux in

Then I'll change the plug-in to a null setting on all the mults (except for the one I'm trying to use) -- this is a no-brainer way of taking care of timing issues. Also, the fact that you're using auxes instead of actual (printed) audio tracks saves the track count.

So, if we do the Pensado triple kick:

(pasted from drum mults topic)

D.P. SEZ:
Let's take kiks today. I tap off a piece of the original sound, and split it to 3 tracks. The original I EQ with the board (SSL). On the second tap I run it thru a 160XT, ratio 6:1, and knock off enough to get the mid attack or thud to come thru (don't use the Over-Easy in). Run this into an API 550A. Next, take any compresser that has variable attack and release and use kinda fast A/R. Crank the threshold down to knock off 25 or so dB. Run this into any EQ and focus on the attack. You mite have to add 20dB at 10K. Experiment. Now combine all three tracks plus your samples (usually 808 type subby sound, or mid thump sample, etc.) Pick your samples so they don't change the original sound, just make it better. Before you knock this technique try it. I do the same with vocals, snares, bass, guitars, and damn near everything. The beauty of this is that you preserve the dynamics and transients, but still have compression! So your apparent loudness, clarity, and punch are still improved better than if you compressed and EQ'd only the original sound.

GREGG SEZ:
My version of doing this on PT would be to make another track & cut/paste the sample with tab-to-transients (if necessary).

Then I'd bus the original kick to Bus 1, make 3 aux ins, put ALL IDENTICAL FX on each -- for instance, if I'm using plug-in EQ *A* as the "board" EQ (Dave's mult #1) and plug-in EQ *B* as the "attack" EQ (Dave's mult #3), then BOTH auxes are gonna have EQ *A* and *B* -- *B* will be flat on the #1 track (just there for timing). Same with compressors.

Next, I'd set up an entirely IDENTICAL chain for the samples -- aux send --> Bus 2, EQ *A* and *B*, whatever compressors.

The auxes can go to another aux for combined compression (that's the "experiment" part).

This type of chaining can turn into a DSP hog, but those McDSP and Ren EQ FX can instantiate multiple times on one chip, so that'll help out...
Old 21st September 2004
  #9
Quote:
Originally posted by Max headroom
. I have found that even if program have latency compensation it produces some latency on some plugs that can make your kicks sound like they are out of phase .
heh
Are you saying there is a phase shift or that its out of phase(180 degrees)?

This is a huge difference.
Old 22nd September 2004
  #10
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LumenStudio's Avatar
 

Re: Mults and Phase issues

Quote:
Originally posted by Ultimax
I am reading a lot of tips about Mult part like taking your kick and making a duplicate or two in Protools and then compressing the crap out of them and adding eq of flavorl
the question I have is do you need to flip the phase for the duplicate. I thought if two tracks are the same they would cancle each other out. Ther is a lot of talk about multing tracks
thanks
When a wave is 180 out of phase it will cancel out, when its identical it will double in amplitude.
Old 22nd September 2004
  #11
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

krs you don't have to allow any latency issues to affect you -- there are many ways to compensate during mixdown.

If you're really low on DSP, you can slide tracks by a # of samples matching the latency which the plug-in is inducing. In PT, you can even playlist the track -- maybe name it "Kick Slid" or something...then put in the "comments" strip how many samples you slide it (that's the Charles Dye strategy) -- as if you probably couldn't get that info off of the original time stamp in spot mode, but anyway...OK -- make sure there's a little blank space at the beginning of the track (or it won't slide earlier on the edit screen), then mark the track and hit "option-H" (in Mac PT) -- that's Slide. Use the samples window, and make sure "earlier" is checked. If you turn off your plug-ins, switch back to your old playlists.

You can also use a sample-accurate delay on ALL tracks except the most "latent" one. This is the traditional method.
Old 22nd September 2004
  #12
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Max headroom's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Are you saying there is a phase shift or that its out of phase(180 degrees)?

This is a huge difference.


phase shift, otherwise they would cancel out, but I was concetrating on the guy's problem......sorry

heh
Old 23rd September 2004
  #13
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

krs, what DAW/software platform & interface are you using?
Old 23rd September 2004
  #14
Gear nut
 

gregg very interesting strategy for dealing with latency, i love it.
a question: do you bypass the non-used plugs, and if so, does bypassing them ignore them in terms of latency.

im asking about bypass, becuause not all plugs are like EQ where you can just leave it flat and itll just pass audio.
Old 23rd September 2004
  #15
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by pentajigga
im asking about bypass, becuause not all plugs are like EQ where you can just leave it flat and itll just pass audio.
No, I don't bypass 'em. Obviously, EQ's are set flat. On compressors, I crank up the threshold so it never kicks in. On gates, I crank up the release & move the threshold so it's always open.

Of course, certain plugs will change the sound regardless. Strangely enough, the Digidesign Dynamics plug-in (the "stock" compressor & gate) is really, really good for this sort of thing (and impacts DSP minimally).

krs, I thought there was a sample-accurate delay adjuster in PTLE. I guess maybe it's part of the Waves package.

Here's one -- you know what I've done in PT is: I'd "record" a small section on a track from a dead bus (i.e.: digital black) and then zoom all the way in & take the pencil tool and make a one-sample long "click" by drawing in the smallest transient possible. I have this sample in my drum samples folder, actually. So, if I suspect there are timing errors, I can sum two things and then see if the clicks are separated or additive.
Old 23rd September 2004
  #16
krs
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krs's Avatar
 

nice trick Gregg. Thanks
Old 24th September 2004
  #17
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will_ie_2000's Avatar
 

Hardware???

Sorry about the delay with the question on this post.... havn't been able to get online as much over the past couple of weeks - withdrawl symptoms started kickin in - wasn't a pretty picture!?! anywho on the latencey issue in regards to multing kicks etc.... from a hardware point of view do you guys notice much phase diffrence when recombining due to more units being on one section of an instrument than the other... and if so how do you fix this... with a crude phase reversal or have you got a trick or two up your sleeve to combat this. Just starting to get into the whole idea of splitting ranges in instruments and sending to diffrent units.. then recombining later. Unfortunatley no access to a lot of hardware at the mo so no can do on the test for myself front. Would apreciate your comments.

Will.
Old 24th September 2004
  #18
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toolskid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Gregg Sartiano
krs, I thought there was a sample-accurate delay adjuster in PTLE. I guess maybe it's part of the Waves package.
not waves - just TDM only
Old 24th September 2004
  #19
krs
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is there a freeware out there that would do this (pluggo runtime?) or something? It seems like a pretty simple thing - that would be a popular plug for LE users...
Old 25th September 2004
  #20
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djui5's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by krs
is there a freeware out there that would do this (pluggo runtime?) or something? It seems like a pretty simple thing - that would be a popular plug for LE users...

A delay plug-in?...why don't you just move the track?......really easy.
Old 25th September 2004
  #21
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Thread Starter
In protools if you change the display on the faders to insert delay. is this number in millaseconds ms
I am sure it is. So basically you can shift the track earlier by that amount. I looked at my vocal track. it say 9 on the fader display for latency or delay.
Old 25th September 2004
  #22
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toolskid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ultimax
In protools if you change the display on the faders to insert delay. is this number in millaseconds ms
I am sure it is. So basically you can shift the track earlier by that amount. I looked at my vocal track. it say 9 on the fader display for latency or delay.
NOPE! its plug-in latency in SAMPLES
Old 25th September 2004
  #23
Quote:
Originally posted by Gregg Sartiano
No, I don't bypass 'em. Obviously, EQ's are set flat. On compressors, I crank up the threshold so it never kicks in. On gates, I crank up the release & move the threshold so it's always open.

Even though they are set flat, the PT EQ's are still chaniging the sound.

They are designed to replicate an EQ passing signal throught it.

The best way if you are looking for no change sonically is to bypass it.
Old 25th September 2004
  #24
krs
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krs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by djui5
A delay plug-in?...why don't you just move the track?......really easy.
this can be done without printing the track? I know how to nudge.....
Old 25th September 2004
  #25
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Yeah -- use playlists & nudge by samples. That's the #1 way.

My whole matched-sets-of-plug-ins thing is a quick fix, although, if you're mixing 3 songs in a day, sometimes the quick fix is the right one! If you're going after these kinds of multing FX, it'll get you there faster than you can say "New Audio Track> Aux Input"

I think krs was trying to find a plug-in way so that he could change the active plug-in and just have the sample-accurate delay ready to go on parallel tracks/sends.
Old 25th September 2004
  #26
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

If you have any DSP-intensive plugins on other tracks, you can disable them -- solo out your drum tracks, and control-command-click your auto-tune or C4 on your vocal track or master channel. Then you have more DSP and speed to play with while you figure out your multing.

Control-command-clicking will gray out the plug in and free up DSP (different from just bypassing), but it'll retain the settings.

Then, when you've got it like you like it, bounce a 2-track drum stem, save the original as a slave session, and import the 2-track into a new master session. That way, if you have to tweak it, you can do it in the slave session and re-bounce, but you still have DSP in the master mix session.
Old 25th September 2004
  #27
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Gregg touched on some of this already...here's reiterating from a slightly different angle for clarity:

Quote:
posted by krs:
Just curious, for us native/CPU usage challenged boys, how many samples of latency do you allow before you take action? Having a session filled with bypassed plugs is not my idea of a good time

I'm new to this multing stuff, and I'm not sure how much to trust my monitoring. thanks!
Quote:
I'd love to know how other LE people are getting around this !@#$ thing.
I'm using a 001 with a G3 350MHz, and doing all the fancy parallel compression on drum submixes, guitar submixes, Shipley's "airy vocal" techiques, etc. etc.

It's simple: Print your effects.

For the parallel submix compression, I bounce the crushed mix to disk, and import it back into the session. No latency, no CPU drain. Just "Save As" the sub mix session, so you can go back and tweak it if it's not "just right" in the original mix.

For mults techniques that require lots of (CPU-draining) plugin effects manipulation: select the audio, open the plugin in Audiosuite, and print the effect. No latency, no CPU drain. Just make sure you select "create individual files" on the plugin so you can go back and get the original audio if you need it.

Where there's a will, there's a way. And there is always a f&cking way.
Old 26th September 2004
  #28
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Dave Pensado's Avatar
 

Damn, you guys mite not need me anymore...

...great answers, the only thing I will add is that you should have been around in the old days (mid '90's) when time aligning a track was a real chore. Finally Steinberg came up with a plug that would help you guess at the latency (sic). Mostly we did it by EAR. What a bitch. I also walked 5 miles to school in 3 feet of snow...and that is something in TAMPA/MIAMI!
Old 26th September 2004
  #29
Gear Maniac
 

Re: Damn, you guys mite not need me anymore...

Yeah, and why was it always 4:00 in the morning when it was time to fly the BGs in with the two track. What a trip!

Steve
Old 26th September 2004
  #30
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toolskid's Avatar
 

Quote:

For mults techniques that require lots of (CPU-draining) plugin effects manipulation: select the audio, open the plugin in Audiosuite, and print the effect. No latency, no CPU drain. Just make sure you select "create individual files" on the plugin so you can go back and get the original audio if you need it.
watch out - there can be plenty of printed latency with audiosuite plug-ins
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