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Dave what outboard do u consider mandatory?
Old 20th September 2004
  #1
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Dave what outboard do u consider mandatory?

If you were mixing your avg Hip hop or Rnb gig with say a mix or Hd system and no console is there any outboard u consider a minimal requirement?
I'm imagining from the way u work It would probably be a few dbx160xt's and some API550s with maybe an orvile or something for ffx. and maybe a vocal comp like a LA2a, Gates or tubetech CL1B. If you had to have a minimal tool set and still achieve some of your best work, what would u require? Would the list change from Mix to HD? Would u require any outside summing ?
Old 23rd September 2004
  #2
Guest Moderator - September 08
 
Dave Pensado's Avatar
 

good question...

I would say in the analog world:
1176LN
1073Neve with Pre
Avalon 737 (a great all in one)
Distressor
API550A and 560A
Eventide 2016 reverb
Eventide H3000
Lexicon 480/960
TC2290 delay
Pultec EQP1A
DBX160x
In the digital world:
Waves Platinum Bundle
McDSP Filterbank and Compressorbank
Bomb factory stuff
Eventide stuff
If you can't make a great record with this stuff, you suck!
(Did you ever tell CE hello?)
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Old 23rd September 2004
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Dave have you used the distressor for vocals with great success?

I keep hearing mixed opinion on it regarding using it on vocals whether it be mix down or tracking
Old 23rd September 2004
  #4
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Soooo Dave

(CE hasnt answered his phone this week but I'll tell him to give u a ring. I can tell u now he'll ask for drum sounds since he and I think alike)


SO DAVE is this one list or separate lists depending on what world you're working in (analog/digital)

Are you saying you do the ITB thing with just the plugs u listed ???

I'm assuming u meant u needed both to do your thing but I dont want to be wrong in ASS uming

Old 23rd September 2004
  #5
Guest Moderator - September 08
 
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There is only one deck of cards...

...and when I play poker, I want to be able to use all 52, not just some "analog" or "digital", but the entire deck. Yeah, I know this is a stupid analogy, but it works. This is the stuff I USE 75% of the time.

Teacher, I have not had much success with the Distressor on vocals. I tried using it to really squash the vocal, and adding that back into a regularly compressed vocal (like my snare/kik idea), and that was OK. If you have some settings that are good vocal starting places, pass them along.
Old 24th September 2004
  #6
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LumenStudio's Avatar
 

Re: good question...

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Pensado
I would say in the analog world:
1176LN
1073Neve with Pre
Avalon 737 (a great all in one)
Distressor
API550A and 560A
Eventide 2016 reverb
Eventide H3000
Lexicon 480/960
TC2290 delay
Pultec EQP1A
DBX160x
In the digital world:
Waves Platinum Bundle
McDSP Filterbank and Compressorbank
Bomb factory stuff
Eventide stuff
If you can't make a great record with this stuff, you suck!
(Did you ever tell CE hello?)

Dave what convertors are you using into and out of the box?

Thanks!
Old 24th September 2004
  #7
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Hi Dave,

A couple of comments on the gear choices:

1. TC 2290 over the Lexicon PCM 42 delay? Really? I've owned a PCM 42 and I'd have to say along with the Korg SDD-3000 I now own, they are the two best delays I've ever heard. But neither the 42 or 3000 do ducking which the 2290 does. Was that the factor in your decision? And I'd be curious to know how you think Echofarm compares. I did the taste test and found Echofarm lacking (though my studio partner loves it for a "quick and dirty vibe")

2. I found the Avalon 737's preamp to be quite good (I preferred the Summit Audio MPC-100A) but the the compressor to be not good at all. I'd put the Summit MPC-100A and the Universal Audio 6176. In any case, I've since moved from my Summit to a Neve 1073/Urei 1176 combo and I agree with you, those two pieces are must haves!
Old 24th September 2004
  #8
Re: good question...

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Pensado
I would say in the analog world:
1176LN
1073Neve with Pre
Avalon 737 (a great all in one)
Distressor
API550A and 560A
Eventide 2016 reverb
Eventide H3000
Lexicon 480/960
TC2290 delay
Pultec EQP1A
DBX160x
In the digital world:
Waves Platinum Bundle
McDSP Filterbank and Compressorbank
Bomb factory stuff
Eventide stuff
If you can't make a great record with this stuff, you suck!
(Did you ever tell CE hello?)
As an aside i would add to Dave list a Massive Passive,GML 8200,some kind of Neve compression,LA2A and some PCM42's.

On the software stuff probably some of the Sony stuff.
Old 25th September 2004
  #9
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Kestral
Hi Dave,

A couple of comments on the gear choices:

1. TC 2290 over the Lexicon PCM 42 delay? Really? I've owned a PCM 42 and I'd have to say along with the Korg SDD-3000 I now own, they are the two best delays I've ever heard. But neither the 42 or 3000 do ducking which the 2290 does. Was that the factor in your decision? And I'd be curious to know how you think Echofarm compares. I did the taste test and found Echofarm lacking (though my studio partner loves it for a "quick and dirty vibe")
The 2290 does things the 42 just doesn't do, or does them in a different capaicity that can or cannot work better, depending on the situation (also depending if the unit has upgrades). The PCM42 is great for a quick, basic delay that sounds good. The 2290 is more indepth. Chorus, Flanger, Tremelo, Autopan, Pan envelope, sample replacing, and things as simple at the 'learn' function. Both are great units, and there's a reason the 42 is usually more expensive than the 2290 on the used market. IMO, that reason is it's ease of use.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kestral

2. I found the Avalon 737's preamp to be quite good (I preferred the Summit Audio MPC-100A) but the the compressor to be not good at all. I'd put the Summit MPC-100A and the Universal Audio 6176. In any case, I've since moved from my Summit to a Neve 1073/Urei 1176 combo and I agree with you, those two pieces are must haves!
The pre in the 737 is it's weak spot to me (I own 2). The EQ is the money of the unit, and the compressor is slow sounding (albiet opto) on the attack but still very useful and sounds great on stereo linked horn busses. All that said and done, I don't think Pensado has had to track anything in the last 10 years.
Old 25th September 2004
  #10
Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
The 2290 does things the 42 just doesn't do, or does them in a different capaicity that can or cannot work better, depending on the situation (also depending if the unit has upgrades). The PCM42 is great for a quick, basic delay that sounds good. The 2290 is more indepth. Chorus, Flanger, Tremelo, Autopan, Pan envelope, sample replacing, and things as simple at the 'learn' function. Both are great units, and there's a reason the 42 is usually more expensive than the 2290 on the used market. IMO, that reason is it's ease of use.

Even though the TC2290 has certain things going for it, the PCM 42 is still king for 2 reasons in my opinion:

1) The PCM42 rocks on vocals more than any delay bar none and for this alone it will always be lusted after.

On guitars it stellar, but so is the 2290 and the Roland SDE-3000.

2) The 2290 is not a true stereo unit. Some of the cool choruses and flanges you can create disappear in mono. You need 2 of them linked together(can be done with the latest software).
Old 25th September 2004
  #11
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Kestral's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Even though the TC2290 has certain things going for it, the PCM 42 is still king for 2 reasons in my opinion:

1) The PCM42 rocks on vocals more than any delay bar none and for this alone it will always be lusted after.

On guitars it stellar, but so is the 2290 and the Roland SDE-3000.

2) The 2290 is not a true stereo unit. Some of the cool choruses and flanges you can create disappear in mono. You need 2 of them linked together(can be done with the latest software).
I used to use the PCM 42 on my analog synthesizers and it was pure sweet tone.

The Edge of U2 uses the Korg SDD-3000 as his main delay unit but he also uses TC 2290's. The guitarist for Coldplay uses the TC 2290. I've heard clips made by folks who own the 2290 and 3000 and I'd have to say the 3000 sounded much warmer. A while back I opened up my SDD-3000 and found it loaded (at least 20-25) with those JRC4558 chips that make the old tube screamers so valuable.
Old 25th September 2004
  #12
gem
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how is the eventide 2016 compared to the 480l?
are these comparable at all?
just looking for a cheaper solution of a good room-reverb fx.
thanx
Old 25th September 2004
  #13
Quote:
Originally posted by gem
how is the eventide 2016 compared to the 480l?
are these comparable at all?
just looking for a cheaper solution of a good room-reverb fx.
thanx
Very different.

You need both...

like a true Gearslut.
Old 26th September 2004
  #14
Guest Moderator - September 08
 
Dave Pensado's Avatar
 

gem

We all have different tastes, but for me I use Stereo Room on the 2016. It is a dense, dark verb, and I like to add an 1/8th or so predelay. I also sometimes use the preset Room (not Stereo, just room) for that 80's big tom sound. The 480 has nice halls and chambers. I also love Silica Beads, and a few others, but I look at it as my utilitarian Expensive unit. I use it when I want a classic or conventional sound. I am never amazed by it (480) but I am always happy I used it. The 480 is similar to some of the better ITB verbs. The 2016 pluggin is excellent, as is the new unit. It's kinda hard to get excited about verbs, because lately I am going thru a phase where I don't like using them. I prefer to use a trillion delays.
Old 26th September 2004
  #15
Guest Moderator - September 08
 
Dave Pensado's Avatar
 

gem

We all have different tastes, but for me I use Stereo Room on the 2016. It is a dense, dark verb, and I like to add an 1/8th or so predelay. I also sometimes use the preset Room (not Stereo, just room) for that 80's big tom sound. The 480 has nice halls and chambers. I also love Silica Beads, and a few others, but I look at it as my utilitarian Expensive unit. I use it when I want a classic or conventional sound. I am never amazed by it (480) but I am always happy I used it. The 480 is similar to some of the better ITB verbs. The 2016 pluggin is excellent, as is the new unit. It's kinda hard to get excited about verbs, because lately I am going thru a phase where I don't like using them. I prefer to use a trillion delays.
Old 26th September 2004
  #16
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djui5's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by gem
how is the eventide 2016 compared to the 480l?
are these comparable at all?
just looking for a cheaper solution of a good room-reverb fx.
thanx
Might wanna look into a M5000....great unit and has some really good sounds in it.
It's my fav "lower budget" fx box out there...




Have to agree with the PCM42 comments....everytime I use one of those things I fall in love with it all over again. I've only used a 2290 a couple of times...and was impressed with it's sound...but didn't get the chance to mess with it a lot.
Old 27th September 2004
  #17
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Dave did it again

Dave when I first posted this I was hoping to hear that there were only a few things you deemed necessary to get the job done (things that I could add to my arsenal without spending another 40Gs) I now realize I need to rent time somewhere LOL!

I wouldnt expect you to be able to comment on most cost cutting techniques (using an altiverb sample of the 480's silica beads or using the plugin 550s instead of actual APIs) because you actually have the pieces at your disposal, and probably havent had much experience with the alternatives (I remember your outboard on on top of the racks at enterprise as being more than the studio itself had).

I don't know if my post will help others but what I've been doing to utilize the suggestions that u post is using a BF LA3A or Tube Tech CL1B wherever you r using a Gates Sta level, Using 160xts wherever u do, substituting a distressor for when you use an 1176, and using the URS neve plug where u use a 1073. I dont have the eventide plug nor the 2016 plug so I would like to know how close they come to the stereo room on the 2016 and the harmonizer in the H3000.

I've decided to make my outboard purchases cover certain areas first and then to move on to other pieces. Because most of what I do is urban (hip hop/RnB) I use a few 160xt's, a distressor, and a CL1B along with NTI EQ. My thinking is that this along with plugs will cover my vocals and drums. My next move is to a pair of 550s and a 560 for drums and probably a vocal EQ. From there I'll move to Bass and ffx.

AM I on the right track in my thinking ? any comments you'd like to add?
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Old 27th September 2004
  #18
Re: Dave did it again

Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet

AM I on the right track in my thinking ? any comments you'd like to add?
You have to make the distinction if you are just going to be mixing for yourself or are you going to be doing other people's stuff.

If its for yourself than it doesn't really matter what you choose as long as it works for you.

If you are doing outside stuff than that's a whole other story.

If its outside you can't always force a square peg down a round hole.

What i mean is just because the CL1B worked for one person, doesn't mean its the right sound for the next guy. The Sta Level and the CL1B sound different. Where the CL1B is transparent the Sta Level isn't.

So if color is called for the CL1B may not cut it.

Each track needs its own unique sound and nothing exposes that worse than vocals.

This is the one area i personally feel where the plugs just can't stand up to their analog counterparts. Vocals are dynamic instruments than change timbre over time due to breath control, movement(off mic axis) and emotion. I feel that the analog stuff just handles these things better and impart their own character depending on how you hit it.

You just can't hit the plugs in the same way to get the same effect.

This is one reason why the gear list is long and varied.

You need different tools for different tasks. Just like you can't build a house with just one screw driver, its the same way when working with other people's tracks. You have to take tracks that were either recorded well or not, arranged well or not or not enough or too much.

Now if its all being done in house, you can have quality control on what's being produced. You can control the sound easier this way.
Old 27th September 2004
  #19
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Thrill

It's mainly in house stuff. I mix stuff for a bunch of guys, but since the music seems to always have a midi and sequenced element, I often have the guys cut 2 trks of music and sing/rap vocals and other instruments around them. This way I can come back with a copy of the sequence and change/edit sounds and re-track everything through my own gear. This is the only way I can control the quality of it. I know the importance of having the right piece of gear for the right color/tone/timbre and I know that I am at a disadvantage there, but what I have as an advantage on Dave or yourself is the ability and athourity to simply re-cut the part


With that said, What I've been trying to do is eliminate plugs for as much as possible and re-cut kick and snr drum mults/bass/vocals through outboard pieces. This along with analog summing and the ability to push the 2 bus has helped my mixes tremendously and I'm simply wondering what pieces I shoud go for next. (leaning toward some API stuff 550s/560s


heh
Old 15th September 2008
  #20
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Dave Pensado's Avatar
 

Hi No SSL. I love the Impulse Responses and feel comfortable substituting them for the real thing. The real thing is digital also. I like all your other substitutions also. Great work. Remind me to start or reply to a thread: THE BEST OUTBOARD GEAR UNDER $100, $200, and $300. There are tons of great gear out there that would fit into those categories.

THRILLFACTOR, I agree, great post! Guys, re-read this post, he is dead on. One thought TF, instead of the substitution logic, people should try to use plugins as plugins. I know you are saying this, but I want to expand on this. Think of the best piano synthesizer. Sometimes it just works better than a real one. Think about the Rhodes, or Wurlitzer pianos. Sometimes they work better than a real piano. Then again sometimes they don't. The new waves plugins like the Fairchild, or Pultec by JJPuig are amazing! Is this thought clear?

DJUI5, me too, I also love the 3000.

THRILL, I have made Impulse Responses of all my verbs, and they are quite amazing.

KESTRAL, that is cool, didn't know that. I LOVE the 2290.

e-cue, sounds like you love it too. (we know each other, right?)

LUMEN, I use the Lavry gold one. I'm not too picky with converters. I'm off the opinion that the clock is just as important. I also still print alot of mixes to 1" 2track.

I hope some of these new answers help shed some light on this subject. As always I reserve the right to have different opinions on different days!
Old 15th September 2008
  #21
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solidstate's Avatar
 

hey Dave, what ouboard/plug ins are you using on kick and snare drums lately?
Old 15th September 2008
  #22
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2 things..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Pensado View Post
Remind me to start or reply to a thread: THE BEST OUTBOARD GEAR UNDER $100, $200, and $300. There are tons of great gear out there that would fit into those categories.
so.. start it.. here in gearslutz i always receive replies like.. "there is nothing good in this price range".. and.. "keep the money, don't waste your time in those cheap things"

so it would be a great thing if someone with a lot of authority makes a list of cheap things that WORKS GREAT

the other thing is... what do you like of the avalon 737.. i've heard some preamp comparison and i never liked it.. to many highs that makes the transients to edgy.. and i've read everywhere the compressor is awful..

which are the applications where excels?
Old 18th September 2008
  #23
Gear Nut
 

I get a great sound with the Distressor on vocals. My chain of choice believe it or not is:

Shure SM7
Great River Mic Pre
Distressor set to 6:1, att2, rel 4

It sounds AMAZING.

I own a C12, U67 & U87 along with API, Summit Audio, Neve, Demeter

And I have to say my above chain sounds best for me

Old 21st September 2008
  #24
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boothboy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Pensado View Post
We all have different tastes, but for me I use Stereo Room on the 2016. It is a dense, dark verb, and I like to add an 1/8th or so predelay. I also sometimes use the preset Room (not Stereo, just room) for that 80's big tom sound. The 480 has nice halls and chambers. I also love Silica Beads, and a few others, but I look at it as my utilitarian Expensive unit. I use it when I want a classic or conventional sound. I am never amazed by it (480) but I am always happy I used it. The 480 is similar to some of the better ITB verbs. The 2016 pluggin is excellent, as is the new unit. It's kinda hard to get excited about verbs, because lately I am going thru a phase where I don't like using them. I prefer to use a trillion delays.

SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE SLUT!!! I love the choice of being able to use the 2290 or the 42 or the 480L doppler since I have used all of them at the same time on the same track talk about washy...woo hoo thats an 80's power salad (ballad) waiting to happen!! lol great forum !!
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