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COMPRESSING SUBMIX's OR BUSSES
Old 24th May 2003
  #31
Any info on AW's work is highly valued as far as I am concerned!!!
Old 24th May 2003
  #32
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Jasper
all I have to do is wait two days before I completely forget what I've recorded.
it takes me at least 6 months... sometimes a year or longer to reset from a project that i have recorded.
Old 24th May 2003
  #33
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vodka gimli's Avatar
 

Drum Sub Compressing on 02R?

I would like to try these techniques, but I have never attempted to as of yet. I am a guitarist first and an engineer second (the older, balder and wider I get, the less road gigs I get offered), hence the studio!

Is it possible to compress a drum sub mix on an 02Rv2? Suppose I have drums on channels 1-8 coming from an MX-2424 digitally. How would I set up th 02R to compress these channels?
Old 24th May 2003
  #34
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally posted by slipperman
The biggest tool in Andy's arsenal is Steve Sisco. His assistant engineer for the past 14 years. Steves' crackjack organizational skills and relentless attention ....Steve is undoubably the greatest mix asssistant EVER, IMHO. They move as one. It's truly frightening.
Slipper - That is a great tribute to Andy and Steve. Part of being successful in this world is surrounding yourself with great people. Its a real talent, and a developed skill. Just check out the Frank Sinatra thread. Case after case is made for Frank surrounding himself with great producers, arrangers, musicians, engineers, and great equipment, etc.

I didnt know about Steve, but either way, you have to appreciate Andy for finding and mentoring Steve. Sometimes it gets back to the left brain, right brain thing, which is really only a metaphor for "creative vs. logical and methodical". Steve is Andy's "left brain," and lets Andy concentrate on the artisitc/creative decisions and overall concept of a mix. The minutea are overseen by Steve as you have indicated, and Andy doesnt "tangle" his brain with "insert 25, going to LN1176-3, Pultec EQ-1, De-esser 2. split back in to channels 25 - 27... or whatever...

Thanks for the input about Steve Sisco! Thats a a name I will try to remember. I hope we see Steves name on albums 5 years from now. It makes me feel warm that Im not the only major fan here of Andy Wallace.

Dave
P.S. I dont think Andy has ever used a Distressor. <laughing>
Old 24th May 2003
  #35
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Berolzheimer's Avatar
 

Quote:
one thing i'd love to get my hands on is a compression matrix....

......imagine a matrix with, say, 24 stereo inputs.........this should be enuff to accomadate the main elements of a mix.......kick, snare, BV's, guitars etc etc up to...... 24

each (stereo) channel has a built in Distressor

after the Distressor , each channel has a stereo output

each channel has 23 send knobs!

each send goes to the sidechain input of each channel's Distressor

the idea is that you could set up layers of compression with certain sounds being given priority or space via the ducking of other sounds.......
I Love this idea. As Dave says it's probably hard to do economically in hardware, but I bet it's doable in software. MIght not have "Character", but could probably do a nice clean job of ducking things around each other. Like someone said earlier in another thread, it would be a good example of doing something in software different than what could be done in hardware.
Old 25th May 2003
  #36
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Any info on AW's work is highly valued as far as I am concerned!!!
Does anypone know if Andy Wallace favors a specific mixdown medium. His mixes sound very analog so Im thinking he mixes to half inch two track or something...

Anyone know for sure?
Old 25th May 2003
  #37
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jpaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Derr
Does anypone know if Andy Wallace favors a specific mixdown medium. His mixes sound very analog so Im thinking he mixes to half inch two track or something...

Anyone know for sure?
IIRC, Andy mixes to an Ampex ATR-102 1/2"... also, regardless of format (2", ProTools, etc.), everything gets dumped to Sony 3348 HR for the mix.


Anyone know anything else about his magical DAT tape of kick and snare ambiences? Are these "real" recorded spaces, or just favorite drum hits going through a fav verb (or something along those lines anyway)?

I remember an assistant from Quantum in Jersey City (AW's old haunt pre-Nirvana) telling me how Andy was quite fond of the AMS units, RMX verb abd DMX delay, and used the DMX's sampling function for his kick and snare samples, which implies he was doing this over 10 years ago. Same DAT I wonder?
Old 25th May 2003
  #38
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Screws's Avatar
 

Re: Drum Sub Compressing on 02R?

Quote:
Originally posted by vodka gimli
I would like to try these techniques, but I have never attempted to as of yet. I am a guitarist first and an engineer second (the older, balder and wider I get, the less road gigs I get offered), hence the studio!

Is it possible to compress a drum sub mix on an 02Rv2? Suppose I have drums on channels 1-8 coming from an MX-2424 digitally. How would I set up th 02R to compress these channels?
Hi vodka,

I do this all the time. Send drums to busses 1 and 2, then go to the Setup page 2 and select bus 1 and bus 2 to be sent out via the aux outs 1 and 2. Now go to Digital I/O page 2 and select Bus 1/2 as the input source for Line 17/18.

Now de-select the ST(ereo) outs for the drum inputs, so you don't hear them, except via Line 17/18. Send Aux 1/2 to your compressor and bring the outputs back into a pair of line ins, say, 19/20.

Now comes the real fun. The extra D to A and A to D conversions cause a minute delay between the uncompressed drums going directly to 17/18 and the compressed drums going to 19/20. You have to experiment to get them to line up exactly. My 02R going to the Fatso or JoeMeek comps requires me to put a delay of 84 samples (Delay page) to get the two subs to sound right. Theoretically it should be the same delay for every 02R, unless you're using a digital comp and then you have to add its delay to the equation.

Email me if you have any questions.

S. Cruz
Cruzified Music
Florida
scruz931@bellsouth.net
Old 26th May 2003
  #39
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally posted by jpaudio
IIRC, Andy mixes to an Ampex ATR-102 1/2"... also, regardless of format (2", ProTools, etc.), everything gets dumped to Sony 3348 HR for the mix.
The Ampex was exactly what I was thinking.

I think some of the people who got really fast at editing on 3324s/3348's find it hard to give that medium up, and theres the whole "Big Tape Deck" feeling of quality, as opposed to some little converter boxes hanging off a computer. Id bet the quality isnt better, just the portability and direct controls of it. No fishing thru menus etc., and you can carry the tapes out immediately. Its very tangible, as opposed to backed up"Sessions" on CDs... I hate that feeling of "Lets see, was this the last version we did Teusday..."??
Old 26th May 2003
  #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Derr
The Ampex was exactly what I was thinking.

I think some of the people who got really fast at editing on 3324s/3348's find it hard to give that medium up, and theres the whole "Big Tape Deck" feeling of quality, as opposed to some little converter boxes hanging off a computer. Id bet the quality isnt better, just the portability and direct controls of it. No fishing thru menus etc., and you can carry the tapes out immediately. Its very tangible, as opposed to backed up"Sessions" on CDs... I hate that feeling of "Lets see, was this the last version we did Teusday..."??

Very true concerning the 3348/3324 Dave... i've heard several engineers, even in this age of high-density ProTools and DAWs, claim that those Sony machines were the greatest inventions of our time! Personally, i never spent much time with them... I only wish I had. But seeing some world-class engineers like Dana Jon Chapelle or Joe Ferla do their "thang" on them is pretty amazing. And I agree with the idea of walking away from a session with something tangible such as a digital tape reel... something much more satisfying and secure IMHO.
Old 28th May 2003
  #41
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Quote:
one thing i'd love to get my hands on is a compression matrix....
I'll make you one
Don't you worry !!!!
Old 28th May 2003
  #42
Gear maniac
 
Dan-O's Avatar
 

Quote:
AW for guest moderator!

Oh my yes.
Old 31st May 2003
  #43
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
MOST HITS

"Andy Wallace for Moderator!" Let me know if this happens! I got some questions for his ass. <laughing>

It would be interesting to know who has mixed the most Hit Records. I imagine Bob Clearmountain did his share, especially in the 80's! Gads, no offense to Simple Minds, INXS nor Roxy Music, but I bet that stuff could have been boring and wimpy in a less capable mixer's hands.

We've mentioned Andy Wallace quite a bit. Id place some money on Tom Lord Alge for a probable top number of hits. I just found out today he did Avril's album. He scares me. . Tom may be the antichrist of mixing... a total anit-purist. I dont think he ever sees the need to leave things alone or unprocessed. He will split tracks and eq & compress them before they hit the board. Course hes not alone these days in the "Torpedos be Damned" approach. One of my favorite albums was the VERVE PIPE album he mixed. Chris Lord Alge does magic too!

I wonder if there is any census available about who has mixed the most hit records.
Shallow question, I guess, but... any thoughts?
Old 31st May 2003
  #44
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Mike Jasper's Avatar
More and more, it appears the mixing engineer is the man. Is a producer who isn't a mixing engineer worthless?

I really don't know. I suppose a producer who could get a great mixing engineer would still be valuable.

And where does the engineer who does the actual tracking fit into all of this? That still seems to be an important part of the equation. Or is tracking often done by mixing engineer as well these days?

Again, I really have no idea.

George Martin produced a lot of hits for the Beatles. But I don't think he did any hands-on mixing. Am I wrong about this?

Jasper
Old 31st May 2003
  #45
Lives for gear
 
jpaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Jasper
More and more, it appears the mixing engineer is the man. Is a producer who isn't a mixing engineer worthless?

I really don't know. I suppose a producer who could get a great mixing engineer would still be valuable.

And where does the engineer who does the actual tracking fit into all of this? That still seems to be an important part of the equation. Or is tracking often done by mixing engineer as well these days?
I've always viewed the roles of producer, engineer, and mixer to be very distinct roles in the process of album making, and while some of these roles are shared by a sole person in some cases, there are just as many cases where the roles are spread out amongst many individuals.

Is a producer any less of a producer because he can't engineer? Not one bit. Engineering is not a required role of a producer. George Martin always had Geoff Emerick.
Is Dave Bottril the best in the business because he produces, tracks, and mixes all by himself? I'm a fan, but "the best" is quite subjective.
Is Garth Richardson less of a producer because he has a small team of engineers/editors/techs/coaches/assistants on board for some albums? Not in my book... bottom line is he gets the job done
Is Andy Wallace less of a mixer because he has Steve Sisco handling much of the technical mix aspects?
What about someone like Brendan O'Brien, who has proved himself to be a very fine engineer at both tracking and mixing, yet when producing relies on Nick DiDia to handle the tracking duties while mixing himself in the end?
What about Bob Rock... proved himself as an engineer on some great 80's rock albums, began producing and immediately hired a right-hand man tracking engineer named Randy Staub... Randy went on to take over mixing Bob's productions and is now an A-list mixer himself. Didn't take away from Bob's status one bit.

I could go on and on, but i'm sure you get the idea... some guys do it all, some can but choose not to, others can't and don't kid themselves...
Old 31st May 2003
  #46
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Brendan O'Brien

J.P.

Brendan was really a huge part of the grunge and Seattle sound wasnt he? I mean... Red Hot Chilli Peps, Stone Temple Pilots, Pearl Jam, and another one of my faves.... Sound Garden. Good lord, you have to wonder if we would have had the Grunge thing at all, without his anti-perfect, character oriented, sloppy-yet-beautiful tracking and mixing. He made it ok to have a really woofy... or tiny, pointy snare, that sounded different on every single 2 and 4.

Super Unknown was my favorite album in 1995. Sound Garden peaked on that album, combining their classic riffs and heavy grunge style, with one beautiful melody after another. And talk about massive compression...) Can you imagine seeing Sound Garden in a Seattle club in 1990? That must have been an intense scene. I have re-discovered that album on Genelecs and now on my HR24 Mackie Monitors. Brendan O'brien helped formulate the 90's grunge rock genre, and just generally kicks az.

HMmmm, for some reason, I bet he's an SSL mixin man...
Old 31st May 2003
  #47
Thumbs up Re: Brendan O'Brien

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Derr

Brendan was really a huge part of the grunge and Seattle sound wasnt he? I mean... Red Hot Chilli Peps, Stone Temple Pilots, Pearl Jam, and another one of my faves.... Sound Garden. Good lord, you have to wonder if we would have had the Grunge thing at all, without his anti-perfect, character oriented, sloppy-yet-beautiful tracking and mixing. He made it ok to have a really woofy... or tiny, pointy snare, that sounded different on every single 2 and 4.
........
Brendan O'brien helped formulate the 90's grunge rock genre, and just generally kicks az.
Brendan's work was an eye-opener to me... and it still is....
Old 31st May 2003
  #48
Lives for gear
 
blackcatdigi's Avatar
Re: Brendan O'Brien

Old 31st May 2003
  #49
Re: MOST HITS

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Derr
"Andy Wallace for Moderator!" Let me know if this happens! I got some questions for his ass. <laughing>

It would be interesting to know who has mixed the most Hit Records. I imagine Bob Clearmountain did his share, especially in the 80's! Gads, no offense to Simple Minds, INXS nor Roxy Music, but I bet that stuff could have been boring and wimpy in a less capable mixer's hands.

We've mentioned Andy Wallace quite a bit. Id place some money on Tom Lord Alge for a probable top number of hits. I just found out today he did Avril's album. He scares me. . Tom may be the antichrist of mixing... a total anit-purist. I dont think he ever sees the need to leave things alone or unprocessed. He will split tracks and eq & compress them before they hit the board. Course hes not alone these days in the "Torpedos be Damned" approach. One of my favorite albums was the VERVE PIPE album he mixed. Chris Lord Alge does magic too!

I wonder if there is any census available about who has mixed the most hit records.
Shallow question, I guess, but... any thoughts?
Hey Dave,

Its definitely Bob C.

You forgot, Hall and Oates, Bruce Springsteen, David Bowie(Lets Dance), Huey Lewis and the News(Sports),Chic, Bryan Addams and the list goes on and on and on.

If I could have a vote as the best of the best...it would probably be Bob C.

Over the last decade, like all fads he's not the flavor of the month anymore.

I did like his mix on Six Pence None the Richer and the Corrs. The album he produced with Jonantha Brooke sounds terrific.

Most radio hits?

Probably Bob C. followed by TLA and CLA. In the 90's?Mick G. probably.

Mixing records for the majors is all business. As any of the guys who do it here for a living know. Its very cut throat at times.

I think the TLA comment is a little over the top though.

I knew Tom and Chris back in the 80's at Unique. Even back then their mixes had something that other mixers didn't. They could generate and excitement that worked great for the radio(especially TLA). They were also(along with Bob C) the guys who made SSL's a viable mix medium. I knew Tom and Chris did whatever it took to make the mix work(that's why so many dance producers loved them back then). Their mixes sounded the best on the radio and in the clubs/street.

Tom was also doing the "spanking" thing even back then. Of course back then on analog it gave you a certain sound that CD's don't.
Old 31st May 2003
  #50
Lives for gear
 
jpaudio's Avatar
 

Re: Brendan O'Brien

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Derr
J.P.

Brendan was really a huge part of the grunge and Seattle sound wasnt he? I mean... Red Hot Chilli Peps, Stone Temple Pilots, Pearl Jam, and another one of my faves.... Sound Garden. Good lord, you have to wonder if we would have had the Grunge thing at all, without his anti-perfect, character oriented, sloppy-yet-beautiful tracking and mixing. He made it ok to have a really woofy... or tiny, pointy snare, that sounded different on every single 2 and 4.

Super Unknown was my favorite album in 1995. Sound Garden peaked on that album, combining their classic riffs and heavy grunge style, with one beautiful melody after another. And talk about massive compression...) Can you imagine seeing Sound Garden in a Seattle club in 1990? That must have been an intense scene. I have re-discovered that album on Genelecs and now on my HR24 Mackie Monitors. Brendan O'brien helped formulate the 90's grunge rock genre, and just generally kicks az.

HMmmm, for some reason, I bet he's an SSL mixin man...
Yep, those years and that genre really helped pave the way for Brendan... but he was actually a member of the Georgia Satellites in the 80's, I believe he played keyboards and some guitar with them. Like many other young engineers, Rick Rubin took him under his wing, put him on board as tracking/mixing engineer for the first couple Black Crowes albums and the Chilli Peppers' Blood Sugar Sex Magic... My order of events might be a bit wacked, but he mixed Soundgarden's Superunknown... an amazing album, and my favorite of the genre as well, produced by Michael Beinhorn and tracked by another powerhouse, Jason Corsaro. Brendan's first big production (that i'm aware of) came with the first Stone Temple Pilots album, which he produced and mixed, and Nick DiDia tracked. They went on to do 4 or 5 more STP albums as well. Brendan did not work on Pearl Jam's first album, but produced/mixed their 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums IIRC. Ok, what else... produced/mixed King's X Dogman album somewhere around that time too... I'm drawing a blank...

What impresses me most about Brendan, besides his character-driving drum sounds and exciting mixes, is that most of his clients are "return customers"... which implies to me that he must be a pleasure to work with. As anyone on here would agree, it's tough to see someone 12 hours or more a day for 2-3 months and not want to strangle them at times! I bet he's a real class act... just a hunch...
Old 31st May 2003
  #51
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Thanks JP!
Damn, I didnt know he did Kings X too. I happened in on one of their shows at Studio One here in N NJ I think... OH man I had no idea they were three piece, and I couldnt believe the sound and vocals coming out of those guys. I dont know what theyve been up to lately? One of the fullest 3 pc bands Ive ever heard.

Brendan O'Brien is an incredible guitarist... from what Ive heard he has done a few "fixes" himself on some famous albums.

I mentioned somewhere here that Brendan had a lot to do with the Fatso making it into production... so I have a personal debt with him, although Ive never spoken with him, personally. I was teetering on not making the Fatso cuz it was expensive and so quirky. He said he loved the LACK of a million controls and just 4 knobs, if I remember correctly... I believe he used it on some snare first (Stone Temple Pilots?), and then found other uses for it. He wouldnt trade out his prototypes cuz he was afraid we would change them <laughing>.
Old 31st May 2003
  #52
Lives for gear
 
jpaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Derr


Anyone Know if Brrendan has a favorite mix console? I just have a feeling he uses SSL cuz I know he tends to work quickly?
I believe that Southern Tracks, his homebase, is equipped with an SSL 4000G+, along with a TON of vintage and modern outboard, as well as one of the nicest mic lockers i've ever seen. Over on the ProSoundWeb Recpit forums Brendan has come up in conversation a few times and someone over there has assisted him in the past... would be great if that guy would show his face 'round here!
Old 31st May 2003
  #53
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
lol JP I just saw that answered by Blackcat and removed that question

Thanks Blackcat and JP
Old 31st May 2003
  #54
Gear interested
 

Dave, King's X have been on a small tour. My band, Simplfy (www.simplfy.com), opened for them back in November in Phoenix, AZ.
Goddamnit those guys can sing their asses off...
Old 31st May 2003
  #55
One interesting observation about the grunge era I heard in an interview with a long established producer.....

He said rather mournfully that he felt he hadnt had much work during the grung erea because -

"the record companies started to use the guys that did the demos"

In 1985 I was told by record co guy at Electra that I could not really be entrusted with a major lable album budget as they were always $250K + and I was'nt experienced enough yet...

A little while later after grunge & college radio took more of a firm hold, another US A&R executive pointed to the college radio charts and said -

"These acts arent "indie" or fringe elements any more, they have become the MAINSTREAM"

The grunge era must have been a chance for a new wave of producers to break through...

Thoughts?

Break throughs are great right?

Old 31st May 2003
  #56
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Jules, I have a feeling its the usual rebellious nature of humans... in this case, all the huge perfect corporate sounds of the 80's were rebelled against by the next generation. The result was grunge ... which was the antithesis of perfect tracks,drum machines, overdubbed layers of vocals and other instruments. But the engineers and sound are just part of the art. I really think its the results of each new generation of teens wanting something to call their "own", and the record companies always trying to capitalize. A&R are always looking for the fresh face or fresh sound (unfortunately I was never it <laughing>). Its what keeps things moving and changing. The engineer and technology, as well as the artist.

Each generation grudgingly watches the music and culture changed by the generation after. I guess its what makes the cycles of life and art. Bell bottoms were back in after 30 years... just about 2 times the 15 - 18 year standard time or term of a "generation". And ever notice how groups like Stone Temple Pilots, Black Crows and others sounded so much like Led Zep and Stones of the 60's and 70's? Things recycle every couple generations to a degree.

Using that kind of thinking, the big synthesized sounds of the late 70's and 80's should be back around 2005 - 2010.

In the meantime new counter culture art crops up constantly, introducing new elements that soon become absorbed into the mainstream. Rap and Hip Hop are going on 20 years old and are now firmly embedded into our culture. AT some point, the teens will probably abandon our instruments of guitars, bass, and drums for some new instruments for a couple generations.

Mass communications has kept the world much more in sync, but I still think its the rebellious nature of the young that drives music and art (and corporate marketing) into new directions and technologies, every 10 - 20 years. The guys who are going to stay on top, are going to be the ones who quickly embrace the new directions and technologies as they pop their shocking heads up thru the accepted fabric of culture and society. Its a matter of embracing or adapting in a way that doesnt make one look like a square peg in round holes, or like one isnt just jumping on some cheesy bandwagon.


Dave
P.S. Holy Hell, I was just gonna say its all part of the "new kid" on the block syndrome.
Old 1st June 2003
  #57
Lives for gear
 
jpaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
One interesting observation about the grunge era I heard in an interview with a long established producer.....

He said rather mournfully that he felt he hadnt had much work during the grung erea because -

"the record companies started to use the guys that did the demos"

In 1985 I was told by record co guy at Electra that I could not really be entrusted with a major lable album budget as they were always $250K + and I was'nt experienced enough yet...

A little while later after grunge & college radio took more of a firm hold, another US A&R executive pointed to the college radio charts and said -

"These acts arent "indie" or fringe elements any more, they have become the MAINSTREAM"

The grunge era must have been a chance for a new wave of producers to break through...

Thoughts?

Break throughs are great right?


Great point Jules... sure, guys like Andy Wallace and Brendan O'Brien had been working at their craft for several years already, but the underground explosion of the early 90s saw both of these talented gentlemen take their careers to new levels, while some of the "big 80's" producers kinda fell off the charts.

And then you've got the more timeless producers of our era, guys like Rick Rubin, who've successfuly weathered every musical change over the past 20 years, because rather than adapt his approach or try to force a band to be something they're not, he embraces the change in climate and continues to use good taste rather than the pop charts as a barometer for quality.
Old 1st June 2003
  #58
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
I agree totally, JP. Since Rick doesnt bring his "sound" to the band, his ability to adapt and embrace new music and technology will prolly keep him going for a long time. Same with Don Was, I guess.

Of course, then you have the other extreme of folks like the brilliant Mutt Lang who more or less bring the musicians to his sound... he seems to concentrate on bringing the timeless qualities of melody and great polished sounds to his artists. Who else can make a country artist sound like Def Leppard, and garner grammy after grammy with his productions?
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