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symmetry
Old 4th September 2002
  #1
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
symmetry

Main Entry: sym·me·try
Pronunciation: 'si-m&-trE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -tries
Etymology: Latin symmetria, from Greek, from symmetros symmetrical, from syn- + metron measure -- more at MEASURE
Date: 1541
1 : balanced proportions; also : beauty of form arising from balanced proportions
2 : the property of being symmetrical; especially : correspondence in size, shape, and relative position of parts on opposite sides of a dividing line or median plane or about a center or axis -- compare BILATERAL SYMMETRY, RADIAL SYMMETRY
3 : a rigid motion of a geometric figure that determines a one-to-one mapping onto itself
4 : the property of remaining invariant under certain changes (as of orientation in space, of the sign of the electric charge, of parity, or of the direction of time flow) -- used of physical phenomena and of equations describing them


i hit up definitions a lot... especially when thinking about words. i know what symmetry means, not that i NEED to look it up... but its good to have its full basis covered.


symmetry. its been studied regarding the most "beautiful" people are VERY symmetrical. if you split them down their length, both sides are very close to each other. of course one could argue that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

asymmetry makes people uncomfortable. which can be useful when mixing. however, it would be quite strange to make a whole song asymmetrical. im pretty keen on making my mixes symmetrical.

so have we decided that a symmetrical mix is the most beautiful sounding mix? that things out of balance and proportion are "ugly"... if we put someting in the left speaker, do we feel a desire to counter it with something in the right?

have you ever flipped the mix backwards. make the left right and the right left to check your symmetry? you would be suprised to notice that we all favor one side over the other... most of us tend to favor one side of our body over the other. im left handed. but im right footed. and i notice when i flip my mixes they are right side weighted. have you ever flipped someone elses mix and found you preferred it backwards from the way they made it?
Old 4th September 2002
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Renie's Avatar
 

Alpha

Just wanted to say I'm enjoying the stimulation of your ideas and thought sharing..


Old 4th September 2002
  #3
Here for the gear
 
KHAN's Avatar
 

Re: symmetry

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
im left handed. but im right footed.
Me too. I also 'dress' right. But I don't know what that means for my mixes.
Old 4th September 2002
  #4
I specialise in delivering lop sided mixes, never even either side...



Rock n roll - not maths
Old 5th September 2002
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Fibes's Avatar
 

Symmetry and balance (and to some degree panning) are very different things. That said, manipulating balance in a mix can shift the focal point in the proper direction and add movement to the production. It may be easier to describe cinematically than simply using the aural stereo field and I'm capable of opening that can of worms.
It does seem that an unbalanced mix is now considered a novelty instead of an artistic direction. HHHM? Audiophiles are always talking about soundstaging of their playback system, I wonder if they know the band didn't stand that way in the studio...
I do however like flipping my mixes for reference purposes just as an artist, architect or______ should flip the page every now and then. We have to mix for peoples different perspectives so we should infuse a few of our own.

BTW We have a kickass pizza place here that has the speakers split across the wide length of the outdoor sidewalk seating, the Stones never sounded so different.
Old 5th September 2002
  #6
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
I've never flipped one of my mixes aroud on purpose. I know I favor the left side a little but I try to make it even. I have heard my mixes in ****ed up ways though. One time I heard a song I tracked and mixed played in mono at a karoke bar... that was odd.
Old 5th September 2002
  #7
Gear interested
 

I am also very symmetry conscious. It drives my wife crazy when we hang pictures or move furniture.

I see the need to think about it not just in terms of volume but in terms of frequency bands as well. For instnace, I like to balance the Hats on one side with a tamborine or bells on another. The lower mids need to be similarly balanced.

IN the very old days drums or bass might have ended up on one side versus the center. The del amitri hit "roll to me" has got very unusual asymmeteriacl panning and its quirkiness seemed to work - it was so different that it just grabbed your attention.
But, to me, such antics are sooo secondary to a good song that I just dont bother trying to be cute in this way - I rarely if ever see the need.

To inject some temporary contrast, as you suggest, does sometimes have a role to play IMHO.
Old 5th September 2002
  #8
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
1 : balanced proportions; also : beauty of form arising from balanced proportions


symmetry IS balance.

of course in visual areas such as photography and painting, artists rely more on the rule of thirds rather than a symmetrical layout, but the elements within the visual composition still maintain a sense of balance to a degree. this works both in a horizontal and vertical plane. our vertical plane is more dependant on frequency and needs balance between them all.

of course within an album, we cant maintain perfect balance throughout the production or that would make the album quite boring. throwing it off balanced should be an artistic decision kept for just the right points in time to move the listener into the next passage.
Old 5th September 2002
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Fibes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
1 : balanced proportions; also : beauty of form arising from balanced proportions


symmetry IS balance.
So we don't agree on this one:



I I I I I -symmetry


X I Y T Z - The possibility of balance (to use the three port rule...

Is this making sense? Symmetry has balance but balance doesn't always have symmetry.
Old 5th September 2002
  #10
Gear nut
 
Crushed's Avatar
 

Ho Nelly

Back-Up- - - Fibes is bustin out the perceptual philosophy
Old 5th September 2002
  #11
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
X I Y T Z is balanced and symmetrical [by weight, not by shape]
X P I T I is both unbalanced and asymmetrical


to take that further.

some would make it

X I Y T Z

while others would make it

X T Y I Z
Old 5th September 2002
  #12
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
just to make these letters mean a little more.

the drums

X is the ride
Z is the hat
Y is the kick and snare
T and I are the toms

of course to be absolute in "symmetry" the hat and ride would have to be exact by what you are stating but that is not the case. they are two different elements, yet similar in sound [or weighted shape like the I and the T]
Old 5th September 2002
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Fibes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
just to make these letters mean a little more.

of course to be absolute in "symmetry" the hat and ride would have to be exact by what you are stating but that is not the case. they are two different elements, yet similar in sound [or weighted shape like the I and the T]

Exactly mon frer. Now do we want to discuss weight of instruments in a mix. I've always been a fan of the organ trio and how the drums/footpedals hold the organ and guitar to the center. The beuaty is that the guitar can weigh down the right and the top end of the organ on the left while the bass pedals can hit the middle. Drums spread to taste.
Modern rock enters into a very different realm than the old power trio concept since the overdone overdub is now the norm.

The Ultrasound went well y'all. I think I saw a penis on the bean.
Old 5th September 2002
  #14
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
just to make these letters mean a little more.

the drums

X is the ride
Z is the hat
Y is the kick and snare
T and I are the toms

of course to be absolute in "symmetry" the hat and ride would have to be exact by what you are stating but that is not the case. they are two different elements, yet similar in sound [or weighted shape like the I and the T]
I thought we were talking about a Rush instrumental.rollz
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Old 6th September 2002
  #15
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally posted by Fibes


The Ultrasound went well y'all. I think I saw a penis on the bean.
thats the tail
Old 6th September 2002
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Fibes's Avatar
 

I suppose the tail would be part of the "organ trio."
Old 6th September 2002
  #17
Gear nut
 
Crushed's Avatar
 

Holy ****!!

That bean's hung like a horse at ten weeks!!!

I wont know sex for about another two weeks. I hope to not see a penis.tut
Old 7th September 2002
  #18
Gear Head
 

What's interesting to remember is that while we strongly and distinctly perceive stereo spread, panning, etc, while we are listening to music, when we remember music, we "hear" it in mono unless we purposefully remember a stereo event.
It would be interesting to know if other species whose sense of hearing is more developed than our own (a larger percentage of their brains being given over to hearing) remember sounds in mono or in stereo. I asked my dog, but she just ignored me.
Old 7th September 2002
  #19
I used to drive my close school chums mad by making them listen to the intro part of track one 'Rocks Off' on Exile on Main Street by the Stones over and over...(cause I liked it so much).

The drums & gtrs are VERY stereo on the intro, I remember that very well.

Woof!
Old 9th September 2002
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Fibes's Avatar
 

My band does a 10 minute version (for an encore) of rocks off and I only remember it being drunk. gulp!


Good point Lyle good to see you here, I haven't been to RAP in months.
Old 9th September 2002
  #21
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
well mono IS pretty symmetrical.
Old 10th September 2002
  #22
Gear Head
 

ymestrmy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by posterchild
[B]

Only in a left/right sense... There's up/down (frequency)

But usually we don't have an up ear & a down ear (there are times, however.)
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