OK, I realize this is going to elicit some chuckles, but here goes...

Umm, I'm getting pretty good at this mixing stuff; partly because I love it, partly because I've been studying it and practicing it a lot, and been downloading and reading lots of "how-to" philosophies by a lot you folks and putting those tips to use.

I'm also hearing lots of mixes that I thought "Wow, that really sucks!" and proceeded with Walter Mitty-esque fantasies of mixing those tracks myself. ESPECIALLY with almost ALL of the locally-produced stuff I hear. Most of these local cats record and then mix their productions themselves, and it's painfully obvious they needed to get someone to mix the stuff.

It's not like I'm giving up on composing and producing, no way.

But you know how it is when you get good at something and you start to think, "Hey, I love doing this, AND I can make some $$$ maybe..." and the wheels start turning in your head...

Well, the wheels are turning in The Curve's head.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

So you wanna be a big time mixer huh?

Read SM's post on selling out.

Nowadays its tough to do both great mixes and stuff that you will like(or respect yourself after).

The "Big timers" are both talented and great politicians(the part that no one talks about).

The "mix game" is a whole different ball of wax than the tracking game. It is highly competitive and cut throat. Its a big name game. A lot of times things you will mix a song that will be remixed by different guys and if you get credit for it you are lucky(Ask E-cue).

What I would tell you, is if you want get in the game, than you gotta go where the players are. This means the big studios, get to know the booking managers at these places. Even if you gotta start as an assistant, get your foot inside and when the "big gun" messes up(and he will), be prepared to step right in. This worked for me years ago(the 80's at Unique) and I continue to get phone calls for last minute mixing jobs to this day( I also have built a reputation that I can pick the jobs that I feel I can give something to, they may not be lucrative or popular but it makes me happier at the end of day).

The drawback is you may get pigeon holed. Sure you will get tons of work, but it will be the same style(which gets pretty boring quick). If you can stomach it than you will do alright for a while...until that style of music is out and then "new guns" will be brought in.heh

It's all down to your powers of persuasion and the sound of your past works. There is nothing stopping you setting your stall out as a self appointed 'mix master'.

Then it's down to:

Finding clients (paid or unpaid)
How your meetings go
What potential clients think of your past mixes

To proceed, each new mix should help "up" the standard of work you can play new clients. (If you have to do some less hip "trash for cash" work you may deside to sit on that, and not play it to potential clients)

In my field, I find meetings (where I play them selected past works of mine) are CRUCIAL to getting the work in. I feel I have gotten good at "meetings". It's a "skill" IMHO.

Finding clients & meetings

THEN comes the AE/P stuff!

BTW you will probably need to pick up a few well known "vocal fixer" plug ins to be competitive in the mixer market...

I'll be the one to ask :

Who was he ?

don't you dare pass on this one heh

malice

Sure - giving good meeting is important, as is giving good phone. If you can't work the phone, you don't even get to the meeting...

The other thing I forgot to add is when you start working at these place you will get to meet the "bigger' guns(attitudes of grandeur,entourage and all).

If they like you, they might throw you some work later on. Everybody gets work at times they really don't want to do. So a common practice is that they give you the work, they get a nice cut from it(they did get you the gig) and if its a major project they get the credit as the main mixer and you are their assistant. I know this sucks some, but as you build a name for yourself and the labels start to get to know you, they will reach out to you more because you are proven...and cheap.heh

Like i said politics!!!grudge

Eventually when you become popular, you can get someone to represent you(Entertainment lawyer or a engineer/mixer manager). Some of the mixer management companies are located at some of the major studios(here in NYC Sound on Sound has a large roster and I think Skip Saylor has one in CA).

amazing, I do have ethics.. everytime someone posts this sort of thing I hit respond, and say I am going to type " oh, you worked with ______", but I jsut can't bring myself to...

Thanks to everybody for the sobering reality checks.

I have NO problem with that, at all. I don't know why, I just don't. I would do that without a second thought.

I'm seriously considering mixing local stuff FOR FREE, just to get the experience, and to familiarise myself with some of these bigger consoles that y'all use.

OR - specializing in the "PT all-in-the-box" routine, since I'm digging doing that for my own stuff. I figure there's gotta be a market for that, and I know PT like the back of my damn hand...yo??

Hmmm...I know a guy who runs the PT room at a big studio near my hood. Think I'll drop him a line this week.

The wheels are a-turning! HOHOHO!

Hey Curve,

A piece of advice...

never mix for free!!!tutt

Its a big no-no especially if people will really like your "style". It will come back and bite you in the end(you want to start building a no nonsense approach now). They will expect the same service all the time(especially that you did it for free) and when you charge them they will make a big stink(sometimes you have to think for people, its part of the politicking).

A better idea is to offer to give it a shot, give them a "2 minute all most done" and let them decide if its worth it for them(if you are really good they will work it out somehow). It will prepare you on how to negotiate with the "bigs" especially when you are starting out.

Nowadays I mostly mix on 2 formats, either SSL 9000(sometimes 4K but mostly 9000j) or PT(in the box with all of my junk attached). Its basically the industry in a nutshell. Some people care and some don't. It really comes down to the bottomn line...who has the dough to pay for a 9000J mix room or who went over the budget(or wants to pocket some of it) and doesn't mind that its mixed in PT. If you will specialize in one, that is your choice. I agree with Slip, if you can have access to both it will get you more work(and the managers at the big studios love it when you are versatile. At times you will save their asses).heh

Right now alot of my "mixing"colleagues here in the city have their PT rigs ready to go on call. We are not talking a small rig though(full blown HD rigs with tons of analog outboard, more than alot of studios). They have their own PT controllers and all of the latest plugs. When called upon these rigs are sent to a major studio,a superstars home, or out of state. The competition for mixing jobs is fierce!!! If you can't hang, pretty quickly it gets around.

Guys get hired for their specialty. I guess eventually you will find yours. I think SM's idea of imitation is not a bad one. Growing up, the guys mixing style I loved were Bob Clearmountain and TLA. Bob mixed all of the hits in the 80's and his style is pretty clear. No one lets the song shine through better than Bob. I always loved TLA's mixes on the radio. The first TLA song mix I remember was The System's "The Pleasure Seekers" and OMD's "If you leave" from the Pretty in Pink soundtrack. Even though he is doing mostly rock now, TLA has an ear for the radio. I think their ideas influenced me later on because nowadays i am mostly mixing popular music(in different genres and languages).

Those guys can sure mix.
Add to that list Spike & Blake.

And long live non conformity - keeps people with ears in work.

It's funny, I don't think that Bob, TLA, Spike, or Tchad went out of their way to become 'mixers'. i think they kind of naturally ended up there. Although of the three, I know Tchad still does a lot of recording and 'whole projects' as well. It's just something they evolved into...

Cheers,
John

I know TLA and CLA did(and I heard Spike did also). They both looked at what Bob was doing at the time(and so did everybody else).

Bob revolutionized the whole genre. He got to pick the projects he wanted and the freedom to make them better(and also points!!!). I think what made Bob great at it, is that he never took himself too seriously in the process. I think that is one of the biggest keys to mixing, to understand where to draw the line between your creativity as a mixer and the intention of the original product. In the end when the project leaves your hand, you don't have to live with it anymore not like the artist.

This is the pitfall a lot of the young guys fall into. They become too attached to the material and start to make it too personal. They lose sight of the objective and when the client is not happy with their changes they take it as a personal attack.

To be both attached and dettached in the moment is challenging.

Hey SM,

I've been there too.

But its funny as I get older, I start to care about things less and less(especially with today's productions).heh

I rarely ever remember song titles anymore(its always like..."yeah the song" or the "other one"). I don't think it makes the clients feel special sometimes.heh

But hey the A&R's/producer's don't remember names either, what's the name they use for a mixer..."egg head""gear head"?

The music business!!!grudge

Agreed, and, agreed.

Last year Dave Pensado's mix of Pink's "Get The Party Started" grabbed me by the throat. Not a Pink fan by any stretch, BUT THAT MIX...everytime I heard that track pumped through a system at a party or club or whatever, I was like OY! VEY! WHAT A MIX.

Naturally we A/B'd it with the track we were working on here at the time, and I thought, "Oh, I'll just get OUR track to sound LIKE THAT, and we'll have a hit on our hands, RIGHT?"

NONONONONO...not so fast cowboy...Dave has a 100 channel SSL, decades of experience, and a bunch of hit records on the wall...AND YOU DON'T.

That was in the fall last year. It's March now, and I'm finally starting to feel I'm closing the gap a little bit. But it's been a VERY humbling experience.

BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

Spike Stent is another one ... that guy's fierce.

Every once in a blue moon, I see a post on one of these forums and go "Yo, I'm printing that out and taping it to the wall behind the console" and THAT's one of them...and it hit home because I've MADE this mistake already.

It's easy to fall into the "It's My Gig" mentality...It's NOT your gig you bonehead, it's THE SINGER's gig. SHE's gotta go perform this stuff, NOT YOU.

In our case, some of this is getting into the "production" area, but the lines seem to be getting kinda blurry lately between engineer / producer / mixer / arranger.

Or have those lines ALWAYS been blurry?

In the best situations I've ever worked in, they have always been blurry. Everyone doing 'their thing' to get to a common goal.

Hey Curve, this is exactly the point I was trying to make a few months ago in that discussion we had on another board (something with artisan is the subject line) . The point about knowing when to let go is definitely a key. When I mix a record for someone, I always set it up like this:

I tell them that if you give me the time to get it to where I envision it, any changes you want to make beyond that are your call. this way, i get to present my vision, and hopefully it is a similar vision as the artist. In the end, it is their record, and hopefully they have hired me because I can relate to their vision and make it a reality.

I just worked on a really great record with a Latin artist that went down exactly this way. She hired me because she liked my 'demo reel' and a few of the artists I have worked with, and she gave me the space to do what I needed to do. As a matter of fact, every great producer I have ever worked with knows when to say something and when to let people 'find their way' into it , whether they be an engineer or a musician...

Happy mixing!

-John

Hey Curve,

The answer is yes.

But its our jobs to clear it up.

I always bring it back to Bob because he became a lot of people's missing element in their productions(for good or bad). It got to the point though(much as it is today) that people had him mix their records because it would surely get airplay. Just his name alone equaled instant "hit".

In the 80's you actually had more leeway in the mixing crossing over to production area. Since the whole genre was still being developed, a lot of guys took liberties in adding their own take on stuff. It became a problem when we realized that our "crossing the lines" was actually selling the singles and we wanted compensation.grudge

But then Nirvana came and took some of that away(getting back to simpler mixes, less production).

But its funny, its the simpler productions that are the most difficult to make or sound as a whole. This takes even more talent.

But hey PT is now the thing and we are back trying to "recoup crossing the line". Now someone can take a mix you did, modify it a touch, and because they payed you earlier get full credit as the mixer because of their modifications. Its a new frontier to deal with.

What are you guys doing to "recoup" from some of these modifications? I heard you can copyright a PT mix now, but I am not sure? I am one of those fanatics that tracks everything while mixing for recalls(including documentation on what was used, signal chains etc). Now anyone can steal your tricks if they want.grudge

Curve wrote - "every time I heard that track pumped through a system at a party or club or whatever, I was like OY! VEY! WHAT A MIX.

Naturally we A/B'd it with the track we were working on here at the time, and I thought, "Oh, I'll just get OUR track to sound LIKE THAT, and we'll have a hit on our hands"

--------------

A tip about A/B ing

It's far more accurate / valid if you can hear the two mixes out of the SAME converters via the SAME clock. This isn't too hard to organize with a CD with SPDIF output.

Curve you could route the CD via an Aux in on PT solo it & un-solo /mute it to A/B. You may need to create a separate master fader for it to to skip any maximizing / mastering / eq plug ins you might have running on the mix bus.

Jon Attack wisely pointed out to me that in a lot of cases freelance engineers think they are blowing away mix CD's when in fact they are just blowing away a cheapo CD players converters with the 'clear' sound of a consoles mix bus.

Jules,

Thanks for the heads-up.

What about monitoring the mix through the same CD player?

We've got a duel-player/burner. I'll put the commercial CD in the play tray, and set the record tray to record/pause and listen to the PT mix through that.

Of course none of this even takes mastering into account...I'm just trying to get somewheres in the ballpark.

Another great thread! Super posts, guys.

Hey, Slippy, you need a permanent forum, man. This is too good.

Hi, John Paterno! Is there ever going to be another Latin Playboys record??? Waiting patiently...

Excellent question. I think they all have to be living in the same country first! I'll make some inquiries next time i speak with any of those guys...

-John

Curve

1) are you sending the mix SPDIF out of PT to the CD burner?

2) You really need to be able to flick back and forth rapid fire between A & B.

If you can do both of the above - that will be fine for an A/B set up. If not, no... But it seems like you have figured out a good kludge.

Tip 2

You can instance maximising & EQ plug ins on the Master Fader in PT to 'punch up' your mix to a competativee level with the commercial CD's you A/B with. (you should also have 16bit dither on the master fader)

You dont have to actually USE those when you put the mix down, print a flat version (24 bit, no dither) AND your reference 'quicky mastered' version with the plug ins & dither.

If there is a mastering buget, take the flat version & your guide version. If no buget, on a seperate day with a clear head, import the flat version back into PT (digitally) and attempt a better mastering job on the stereo file. Have the A/B set up as discussed for constant reference.

Use whatever sounds the best - the 'quickie; job or the 'mastering session' version.

I disagree. I have plenty of platnums on the wall, and STILL mix 'up and commers' for free from time-to-time (although I usually just go on a 'points only' scale). There's a couple reasons why. #1 TOTAL creative freedom. I tell them this from the get-go. If I wanna sample replace their kick drums with fart sounds, then they are stuck with it. I usually compromise and make sure their vision is portrayed, as long as I'm happy too. Sometimes you'll come up with a new technique that will make you a better engineer in the long run. #2 No pressure. Show up whenever. Leave whenever. Do things creatively that the major labels would never go for. If the project turns out to have a bunch of ayeholes in it, either kick them out, or walk out. #3 You'll be the first person they call to do their entire record when they do 'blow up'. Sometimes I even tell them that the only way I will mix/track for points, or free, is if they promise to call you first. This also let's them know that you trust them and can be the birthplace of a long term loyalty. #4 Idle hands are the devil's tools. If things get slow for you, as they did for me late last year, it's a great opportunity to stay current. If I'm out of the studio for more than a couple days, it takes me longer to get back in the saddle when I do go back. #5 It helps you stay current and keep your eye on the new music styles coming out. As Dre once said "Kept my ear to the street". #6 You do feel like you are helping someone out that couldn't afford your services otherwise.

Hey E,

"Points only" is not free.heh

And this works if you have payin gigs at the same time(Curve has to eat from time to time doesn't he?)

By the way if you are doing these mixes, who is paying for the studio? Are you doing it at your own place? At their place?


Hey I've thrown people the occasional bone(if its an up and comer that I feel will get signed or I am shopping the project to a label). For an artist I am producing right now I did the same thing and he got signed.

But the majority won't, that's just reality.

I think Curve's best bet is doing a lot of the independents. Right now 70% of the mix work I get is from independent labels/projects. Sure the pay isn't as great and the notoriety isn't as large, but the music is usually more satisfying.

Hell, I haven't made any money YET...why start now??!!

HOHOHO!

Seriously though, I like e-cue's approach too, but mixed with a dash of thrillfactor's mentality.

And I like the idea of working with undiscovered genius.

Great discussion! Thanks for ALL the feedback, it's ALL been great!

But when is it better to throw in the towel and work for less bread? You can only wait it out for so long before your yesterdays news. I usually look at the drought as a relief if I just came off a long project. But OTOH, you don't want to suffer from dehydration either.

On the working for free bit, I always to get something out of a project. Everytime I've worked for free it's been to help out a friend and I end up getting screwed in the process. Like the time I offered to track a project and spent three days on it in a ****hole studio and they didn't bother to pay for the tape which was the only thing I billed them for, because "nothing good came out of the sessions". **** that. Reduced rate is one thing, getting nothing is another.

The price of free is hassle.

If you have what it takes, you should never "throw in the towel" and work for less dough (within reason that is). And if you become, "yesterday's news" you probably are yesterday's news.

While you're waiting it out, you can always create a spec deal with a favorite act or band. Improve on your skills and facility, etc. Down time's a good time for maintenance, improvements and such.

IMO, when working for free or "on spec", I try to pick the folks that appreciate and respect the time and consideration we give to them. Hey, we all make mistakes in choosing whom our friends are -- that shouldn't be a reason to blow off thinking about the right "freebie" to get involved in. You definitely minimize your "getting screwed" ratio when you pick wisely.

Jay, if the tape is the only issue, you're not doing too bad. You can always bulk erase the stock and start another project on it.

I love engineering. I'm not implying you don't, but if everyone thought I sucked and I didn't have commercially successful records, or at least ones that my clients liked, I'd still be plugging away in my place with whatever gear I could scrounge up trying to make the best records possible. I budget myself well enough where I can take 6 months off and not even begin to worry about money. If you aren't quite "big time", then you might not be getting paid enough for it to matter anyway. Also, if a big-dog DOES call while I'm in the middle of one of these projects, they understand that they are low priority. Actually, if I feel like watching the Superbowl, they are low priority. BUT, if you are doing this to try to become big time, DO NOT WORK WITH A SUCKEY ACT. It's pretty much a waste of time. Be careful not to let your paying gigs know about these deals. If you have to, lie and say the band you are working with is giving you 50 points for life and will help you clean out your septic tank if it backs up. Don't let people take advantage of your generosity.(sidenote: some engineers do these sessions and write them off as loses on their taxes. I'm not sure how legal it is, but it doesn't seem ethical to me)

I do give them a set of rules such as, you must master at this facility, you must give me 100 copies of the project, you must have a budget for duplication, etc... If they respond "We have nothing", I try to work with them, but imagine this for a second:

You goto Ventura Car Wash (yeah, Mr Forat's brother) and ask Ben to totally detail your ride. Wash it, Wax it, Amorall the tires, gimme that new car scent, don't steal the pennies in the ashtray, etc... Ben says "Sure thing, that'll be $100 (or whatever the hell they charge)". -here's the imagination part- Now imagine saying "I don't have the budget for that, but I still want it done like it's gonna be in a car show"...

They'd laugh in your face. No situation is the same, but once you start these probono sessions, you can usually tell if there's gonna be a problem early on. And that's my cue to bow out.

10 points of nothing is still nothing.