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Final mix versions.
Old 3rd February 2007
  #1
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clip6's Avatar
 

Final mix versions.

Kevin how many versions of the final mix do you print? ie. +1, -1vocal, no vocal...

What mix formats do you use? 1/2"? Back to Pro Tools? Other?

Thanks
Old 3rd February 2007
  #2
engineer / producer / mixer
 
Kevin Killen's Avatar
 

Clip,

I use
Master Mix
Master Vocal Up .5db
Master Vocal Dn .5db
Master TV
Master Instrumental
LVocal Stem
Bvox Stem
Perhaps one other if requested.

In the DAW , I print back into the multitrack session and then remove all the other audio and do a "Save As" "Title" Mix Stems.

On tape I tend to print just the Master, vocal up and down, the rest get printed to a DAW for archival purposes.

KK
Old 3rd February 2007
  #3
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
Thanks for sharing that. In the studios where I came up we used the term TV mix and Instrumental mix interchangeably, and I still do. What are the differences in those two mixes for you.

ps I love that tip about the seperate sessions of stem mixes!!! thumbsup
Old 4th February 2007
  #4
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Stems/compression

Hi Kevin-

How do you (or do you at all) address the change in dynamics with instrumental mixes compared to vocal versions, where the lead/bu voxes may be ducking or influencing the compression on other tracks (but may not if muted for the insturmental bounces)?


Respectfully,
Andre

(good question. But who cares so much about instrumental mixes that will probably be unheard by the public? Surely adding a vocal to an istrumental mix and compressing that will restore the ducking / compression sound? - Jules. Over to you Kevin.... heh )

Andre,

I leave it as is for the principle reason that there is no way I can approximate the broadcast compression / limiting scheme in advance, so I deal with what I know as opposed to a vague requirement.

Sorry its not more elegant than that.

kevin
Old 4th February 2007
  #5
engineer / producer / mixer
 
Kevin Killen's Avatar
 

RCM

There is a distinction between the two. A TV mix is considered to be the full mix minus the lead vocal track, typically used on television broadcasts when the artist has to sing live but the rest of the band mimes.

An instrumental mix is all the music minus all the vocals, can be used in television/ film soundtracks as a bed track. Can be very useful at some stage in one's career. I would highly recommend that you print these versions, its a lot faster than having to recall at a later stage. Even with DAW technology which is moving fast, that 10 year old project may not be compatible anymore !!

Printing the mix back into the original multi track session can save a lot of time later, if you find you mix is lacking a particular instrument. Just import in back into the stem session and as long as you mixed internally , then imported track should be sample accurate. If you used an external mix buss or processing be sure to adjust for the latency inherent in that A/D D/A process. One trick is to place a number of clicks before your mix starts and then line them up.

Cool

heh
Old 4th February 2007
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
charleslee's Avatar
 

Question

Hi mate,

Nice tips there (especially, abou the clicks !)

When I first read this, I thought a TV mix is a mix (full mix) targetted for TV Broadcast.

I guess different places uses different terms.. (I believe we call these MMO here - Mix Minus One; there's also MMA - Mix Minus All, ie. no vocals, no bg vocals, just instrumentals.. what you call a Instrumental Mix)

But, for your music mixes, are there really not compensations or a version of the fullmix that is "TV friendly" ? or you trust the Audio Post Engineers (like us!!) to EQ your mixes?

Now for the stems questions, I'm sure there were loads of discussions about ITB conversions and especially Dithers. But, anyway, how do you set your Ditherings in your DAW?

Thanks and Regards,
[Charles]
Old 6th February 2007
  #7
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Kevin Killen's Avatar
 

Charleslee,

I guess thats true, same thing different name.

I have on occassion and budget permitting mastered the TV and Instrumental versions and given those to the label for the requisite use, but that is the exception to the rule.

For dithering I will use a program called Barbrabatch to create dithered mixes for reference use. in general I take my full resolution files to mastering and allow them to do the final dithering.

Does that answer your question?
Old 6th February 2007
  #8
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Killen View Post
Charleslee,

I guess thats true, same thing different name.

I have on occassion and budget permitting mastered the TV and Instrumental versions and given those to the label for the requisite use, but that is the exception to the rule.

For dithering I will use a program called Barbrabatch to create dithered mixes for reference use. in general I take my full resolution files to mastering and allow them to do the final dithering.

Does that answer your question?
Hi mate,

That's most helpful. I chanced upon the different type(s) of dithering methods in duc, and was just wondering how the pros do it?

I'm not exactly sure, but i think it is usually music mixes that are very particular about such things, ie. preserving audio qualities, resolutions, bit rates, sample rates, dithers..

For what we do everyday (Audio for Picture/TV), I guess it (still) won't make a difference. and I thought when Hi-Def Broadcast started, audio quality would be bumped up to 96K at least, but it's still not happening.. (we still work at 48kHz 16bit for now)

For music mixes for TV, I heard that the engineers usually mix things "brighter", thus I was curious to know if you are doing it too.

Thanks for replying!

Regards,
[Charles]
Old 7th February 2007
  #9
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Kevin Killen's Avatar
 

Charles,

No I do not.

For my projects I try to record the multitrack sessions at 96K/ 24 bit so my mixes are at the same resoultion.

For broadcast I have not heard of that request......... yet

KEv
Old 10th February 2007
  #10
x99
Gear Nut
 

Hi Kevin,
Can you (or anyone else really) please explain what the purpose of printing a mix with the vocal up and down .5dB is. At what point would this become required?

Regards,
Andy

(prior to or actually at the mastering stage just in case artist / A&R / producer opinion has changed between the time of the mix and the final matering session - Jules)
Old 12th February 2007
  #11
engineer / producer / mixer
 
Kevin Killen's Avatar
 

x99,

I know it sounds ridiculous to print a mix with such a small deviation. However in mastering I have found it very useful to have. At that moment with the processing that the mastering engineer is applying may pull up the music too much and been able to edit in a word / line / chorus / whole mix for clarity is really useful.

It should be noted that the basic mix must be fundementally sound for this to be truly effective. A buried vocal will not benefit from this option. Mastering in all its sublety can really alter the perception of a mix , so take your time to get it right, after that mastering is icing on the cake.




KK
Old 12th February 2007
  #12
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paterno's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Killen View Post
x99,

I know it sounds ridiculous to print a mix with such a small deviation. However in mastering I have found it very useful to have. At that moment with the processing that the mastering engineer is applying may pull up the music too much and been able to edit in a word / line / chorus / whole mix for clarity is really useful.

It should be noted that the basic mix must be fundementally sound for this to be truly effective. A buried vocal will not benefit from this option. Mastering in all its sublety can really alter the perception of a mix , so take your time to get it right, after that mastering is icing on the cake.




KK
Hey Kevin --

If you don't mind, I'd like to add something I learned based on an experience assisting you several years ago. You were mixing the Jude Cole record talked about on another thread. You were a few hours into it, and for some reason I left the control room for a bit. When I came back in, I couldn't believe how focused the mix had become. I may have even inadvertently asked 'how did you do that ?!?!'. It seemed that it was balanced so well that any change would just tip the thing over!! What I have learned since then, is that when the mix is that balanced, a 0.5 dB change on the vocal can be a huge. From that day on, it was something that I aspired to -- a mix so balanced that you would hear any small change in any aspect of the mix.

That's what i think of when I hear Kevin Killen mixes. Balance...

Cheers,
John
Old 12th February 2007
  #13
x99
Gear Nut
 

Thank you Gents.
Old 12th February 2007
  #14
engineer / producer / mixer
 
Kevin Killen's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno View Post
Hey Kevin --

If you don't mind, I'd like to add something I learned based on an experience assisting you several years ago. You were mixing the Jude Cole record talked about on another thread. You were a few hours into it, and for some reason I left the control room for a bit. When I came back in, I couldn't believe how focused the mix had become. I may have even inadvertently asked 'how did you do that ?!?!'. It seemed that it was balanced so well that any change would just tip the thing over!! What I have learned since then, is that when the mix is that balanced, a 0.5 dB change on the vocal can be a huge. From that day on, it was something that I aspired to -- a mix so balanced that you would hear any small change in any aspect of the mix.

That's what i think of when I hear Kevin Killen mixes. Balance...

Cheers,
John
John,

Many thanks. I think i have put many an assistant to sleep with my approach, its kind of subtle but it gets me results.

John, where shall I send that cheque?



KK
Old 12th February 2007
  #15
Kevin (checks to see assistant is out of the room.....) does AMAZING things to the mix...

..assistant returns...

heh
Old 12th February 2007
  #16
engineer / producer / mixer
 
Kevin Killen's Avatar
 

Jules,

Darn, my secret finally revealed. now they will all be installing camera's above the console, but I'll fool 'em.......



KK
Old 12th February 2007
  #17
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paterno's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Killen View Post
John,

Many thanks. I think i have put many an assistant to sleep with my approach, its kind of subtle but it gets me results.

John, where shall I send that cheque?



KK
How 'bout buying me a pint next time in NYC and we'll call it even, OK??

I never thought of it as taking a lot of time, really. It was more how the degree of clarity changed from when I left to when I returned. It made me think about the possiblilites and how to get there. Funny, I forgot how much I enjoyed working on that record -- about 11 years ago [can that be right??]. I apparently learned a lot too. I think you were kind enough to give me an 'additional engineering' credit on it as well.

...OK, I'll buy you a drink!

Cheers,
John
Old 14th February 2007
  #18
engineer / producer / mixer
 
Kevin Killen's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno View Post
How 'bout buying me a pint next time in NYC and we'll call it even, OK??

I never thought of it as taking a lot of time, really. It was more how the degree of clarity changed from when I left to when I returned. It made me think about the possiblilites and how to get there. Funny, I forgot how much I enjoyed working on that record -- about 11 years ago [can that be right??]. I apparently learned a lot too. I think you were kind enough to give me an 'additional engineering' credit on it as well.

...OK, I'll buy you a drink!

Cheers,
John

Done Deal...heh heh
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