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Eric Valentine and New Taking Back Sunday self titled Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 17th July 2011
  #61
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superburtm's Avatar
 

Hello Eric,
Wouldn't foot pedals interact differently with an amp simulator than the eventual chosen AMP? It would seem that you would not have had an optimum environment to dial in the pedal. Or is the pedal thing going to a separate track than the straight up DI used for Reamping?

Thanks for sharing!

Old 18th July 2011
  #62
Gear Maniac
This album sounds fantastic!

'Can't wait to read about how you approached creating ambience and depth.
Old 18th July 2011
  #63
I have a bunch of photos from some of the tracking setups that I'll post when I get back to LA this week.

PS: Eric's making all of this up. He did the whole thing with drum samples and MIDI guitar patches.
Old 19th July 2011
  #64
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Blast9's Avatar
I hope that is true! heh - welcome Cian!

PS Eric - many thanks for your thorough replies!
Old 19th July 2011
  #65
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ev33's Avatar
Another good question. After 5 years of anticipation, it would have been very easy for the console to be distracting. I can't recall any moments when the console took me out of the moment, but I had a lot of time to get that out of my system leading up to the TBS record. The console was up and running earlier in 2010. There was no way I could jump straight into a full on album project. The console definitely would have been too distracting. I invited a band (The Noises 10) to come in and test drive the thing. They were an unsigned band and could use the opportunity to get recordings of some new material. They are friends, I have worked with them before and I explained to them they would be guinea pigs on this round. This song was the very first thing ever recorded and mixed on the console.

(This drum part is a little deceiving because it was recorded specifically to have a live drummer sound like a drum loop. The drum part is entirely a live performance and there are no samples on it… and yes there are 3 different hihats setup on the drum kit)



I felt relieved when it was done. If the first thing done on that console wasn't immediately satisfying for me in some way or another, it would have been difficult psychologically for sure. I had been mixing a lot in the box and or using various versions of hybrid mixing leading up to this and that style of mixing for me has always been uncomfortable. I am just used to using a console when I mix. This first recording sort of confirmed for me that I need to use a console to get the kind of size, separation and openness I feel like I had been able to get in the past without really thinking about it.

Even with a considerable warm up period I still had to be very deliberate about shifting gears when I started the TBS record. I literally had this conversation with myself… "I am done messing with this console for this project. Wherever it is at now will work great for this project and I am not going to f*** with it until after its done." It was one of the more Stewart Smalley-esque moments I've had in my life. I didn't want to be overly fixated on just the sound of the console while working on the TBS record. I feel there are 3 significant aspects to making records and I have always tried to prioritize them in this order:

1. Composition
2. Performance
3. Sound

It just seems that all the cool mic pres, EQs and compressors in the world can't make up for a ****ty song or crappy playing. Where as, when the first 2 are right, it seems you can get away with whatever on the 3rd sometimes. Here's the catch though, and why I think we all enjoy spending our time on an online forum called Gearslutz, When all 3 elements (composition, performance AND SOUND) are there and are executed the best they can be, then you have one of those timeless amazing bench mark records ala Zep IV, Dark Side, Back In Black, Song In The key Of Life, Off The Wall etc. Not that I put any of the records I have worked on in that category. I just feel like that is type of experience we are all chasing. Weather I have ever achieved that or not, that is what I am shooting for every time I start a recording project.

EV
Old 19th July 2011
  #66
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ev33's Avatar
There is nothing else specific for the porous metal itself. Although, the patent does also cover using a porous non reflective surface for a work station type setup as well. Picture a Mid Atlantic type work station where all of the surfaces do not reflect any sound. for the couple of years when I didn't have a console setup I was building them for myself to use. Depending on the setup, it can really make a big difference with the sound of the near fields.

EV
Old 19th July 2011
  #67
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Blast9's Avatar
Eric - sorry to go OT for a sec - lovely overall "warmth" < (eek I said warmth) and smoothness to the The Noise 10 tune - was that straight to a DAW from your console?

And was that "thick" vocal sound achieved via the console mic pre? sounds like a mic with an un-hyped freq response
Old 19th July 2011
  #68
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ev33's Avatar
The snares that have seen the most use over the years for me have been a Tama Bell Brass snare that I bought in the 90s. A red Ludwig vista light snare that I bought used a while back and there was this one Crappy 6" Pearl export chrome snare drum that had a great run. The pearl export was the snare used on Semi-Charmed life. I bought it used and it had a Power Stroke 3 head on it. It just sounded great. I literally never changed a thing on the drum for 6 years. I used it a bunch from 96' (when it was on the 3EB record) all the way into 2002 when it was used on the QOTSA record. Dave Grohl finally killed it on that record. He broke the head and it has never been the same since. It was an honorable way to go out it is kind of weird that the same snare with the same head on it was used on "Semi-Charmed Life" and "Go With The Flow".

The one thing that was unique and very memorable on the TBS record was a special drum kit we rented for the verses in "This Is All Now" and "Falling". We wanted to get a classic Clyde Stubblefield style sound for the verses of those songs. We rented a crazy looking Trixon drum kit for those parts. Cian and I are coordinating to find some pictures of this stuff.

I did still use snares from my collection for the TBS record. I have a pretty diverse collection of about 15 different snare drums and so I didn't feel like I needed to rent new stuff for that part of the kit. The one thing I did do this time is to get heads, snares, lug locs for all the snare drums so every snare in the collection was ready to go. Over the years some have been neglected and out of rotation. This time all the snares were tuned up and ready to go.

EV
Old 19th July 2011
  #69
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hahaha yes! Someone needs to quote that part about not changing heads on the snare for 6 years and use it whenever someone says "you need to change heads every other take dammit!"
Old 19th July 2011
  #70
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ev33's Avatar
Yes, actually one thing I forgot to mention about the Noises 10 song that was significant for me, was that there is no analog tape machine involved in that recording and I actually want to listen to it!! It really has been very difficult for me to make the transition to pure digital recording. This recording was at least a positive step in that direction.

The design of the UTA mic pres is only just now finished and fully tested. Unfortunately, it did not exist yet for that recording. The vocal was recorded with a custom tube mic pre (based on an old Pultec circuit). The mic was my usual fav (SM7) and a vintage 1176LN for compression. Of course Jason Scavone's voice makes it very easy to get a good vocal sound.

EV
Old 19th July 2011
  #71
Gear maniac
 

Again, thanks for the in depth answers to all our questions. I could go on and on and praise you for your openness and strive to push things forward. It is really inspiring hearing one of your heroes answering one of your own questions. I think i speak for all the gearslutz when I say we're really grateful that you take your time to do this!

btw, was the guitar sound(that plays the solo 3.06 into the song) in wombats - 1996 recorded by butch walker? if not could you please tell me what you used?
Old 19th July 2011
  #72
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ev33's Avatar
We recorded the drums on that song twice. The second recording is what we used on the final. I am pretty sure the snare we used was a standard 4.5" depth ludwig with a hand hammered brass shell. I am not sure what the exact name of that model snare is though. I'll follow up if I can find more info.

There are no samples used on the song Faith. There is a post earlier in this thread that lists the few places where samples were used.





EV
Old 19th July 2011
  #73
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Blast9's Avatar
Congrats Eric - mission accomplished! Thanks for the info.
Old 19th July 2011
  #74
this is blowing my mind right now. that is SOOO COOL!!!

That was me asking about the tone in "FALLING". LOVED that tone. Really stuck out to me, was really "ripping" sounding....like the amp was right on the edge ...was it a smaller combo? Also, i'm wondering if i understand this right. Did u say that u run the guitar into the Avalon U5 Di, and then right into your converters? No mic pre first? Would love to be able to get the cleanest possible DI sound without any color....



Thanks again for answering all these questions. really appreciate it!

kp
Old 19th July 2011
  #75
eric, it really is amazing that you take your time to share all of your techniques and experiences with us.

thank you.

jeremy
Old 19th July 2011
  #76
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ev33's Avatar
Yes, the Avalon U5 is one of very few DIs that is transformerless and has a +4 line level out. I plug that +4 line out signal directly to the input of the Digi 192. When trying to capture a DI signal for the purpose of reamping, it seems optimizing for transparency has gotten the best results. Using A DI that has a transformer in it, then going to a mic pre that has a couple of transformers in it will introduce a lot of coloration. In my experience, the coloration takes you further away from the sound of plugging the instrument directly into the amp. Although, the coloration can be great when you are actually using the DI signal itself.

EV
Old 20th July 2011
  #77
Gear Addict
 

I've got no idea who you are, I've only heard of a couple of bands that you have worked with and I think I've picked up more knowledge and usable tips in this thread than I have anywhere else over the last few years so thank you.
I'm a lurker and somebody who does music as a hobby in a small room at the back of my house when I get time away from work, kids and she who must be obeyed.
Thank you.
Old 20th July 2011
  #78
Gear interested
 

Hi Eric,

I own an Ampgeg II J-12 T amp. I remembering you mentioning that use this combo amp as a head feeding a cabinet. How'd ya do it? There are no outputs on mine? Did you have yours modded? Thanks!
Old 20th July 2011
  #79
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ev33's Avatar
I moded mine so it would be possible to hook up an external speaker. I cut the speaker wire going to the 12" speaker in the cabinet. I put a female 1/4" connector on the wires coming from the amp and a male 1/4" connector on the wires leading to the speaker. This way you can still use the internal speaker if you want. The amp is permanently setup up to drive 8 ohms. It is best to plug it into an 8 ohm cabinet. 16 ohms is also fine, but it will be a little quieter. If you plug the amp into 4 ohms there is a small chance that you can damage the amp.

Best,

EV
Old 22nd July 2011
  #80
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DaveUK's Avatar
Bless you Mr Eric ! All good

Sent from my X10i using Gearslutz.com App
Old 22nd July 2011
  #81
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heyman's Avatar
Thank you Eric..!
Old 22nd July 2011
  #82
Lives for gear
Just had to say, it's pretty shocking how similar you and I work. That's pretty nifty.

Tracking everyone live and putting guitars in DIs into the amp sims is exactly what I do. It DOES make stuff go SO much faster.

Honestly tracking live for drums just makes sense to me, the drummer gets to feed off of everyone else and it helps he/she to stay in time a lot better (at least in my experience)

Prepro is such an important part of production yet so many skip it. It sets the tone for everything from tracking all the way down to mastering and not just choosing who's going to be doing what.

We even start work at the same time. 10am HAHA!

It's cool when you find people with the same thoughts/goals/techniques as yourself. Everyone does things differently yet sometimes you meet your twin!
Old 22nd July 2011
  #83
Gear maniac
 

The guitar sounds on this record is huge I have a few more questions about that. Where do you often place your mics, a bit off axis since your guitar tones are never harsh? I've never heard seen anyone micing an amp with a 451, was that with the ck1 capsule? Ultimate guitar recently did an interview with tbs, and they talk very highly of you, adam even says he want you to do all of their records, so congrats on doing a great job getting the right atmosphere and vibe in the studio. John says you used tons of pedals on the record, which pedals did you often use? was the rythmsounds(ed) mostly straight to the amp and johns lead stuff pedals to amp?

Here's the interview if you'd like to read it yourself =)
Old 22nd July 2011
  #84
the 451's were used out in the room. still set up from the drums i'd imagine.

jeremy
Old 22nd July 2011
  #85
Yeah can we talk a little more about the pedal use before the amp sim. I get why, but I feel like I could make mistakes on the pedals an not get them perfect. Care to indulge which tone setting your u5 was on for guitars and bass?
Old 22nd July 2011
  #86
please do!
Old 22nd July 2011
  #87
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mindbend's Avatar
 

I've been a GS member for a long time, but very frequently post. It is threads like this that make Gearslutz an unbelievably valuable place to visit. Eric Valentine you rock! I had never heard of The Wombats until today, and decided to check out the song 1996, especially since Butch Walker had some input on it. That song rocks. The Noises 10 song you posted on here is killer too, and I have listened to it a few times in a row. You recorded/mixed the first Third Eye Blind cd, and I consider that to be the best sounding and best produced album of all time. Awesome Awesome work. Although TBS' music isn't typically my style, I may have to go out and pick up the cd just to listen to how it is put together. The average person has no idea how much producers and engineers affect the overall sound of an album. It is guys like you that bring out the best in bands, which is what makes their records memorable. Thank you very very much!
Old 23rd July 2011
  #88
hey there, hang tight. we're coordinating which photos to post. stay tuned...
Old 23rd July 2011
  #89
Old 24th July 2011
  #90
Thanks soo much Cian! This thread has been ridiculously informative. Can't thank u guys enough for taking time to answer our questions!

kp
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