The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
focused 3D mix techniques DAW Software
Old 2nd September 2004
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
spherop's Avatar
 

focused 3D mix techniques

I am interested in any ideas and appraoches people have to using delays and verbs to create a beautiful sense of 3 dimensionality - yet in tight driving groove type mixes.

One example of what I hear that I'd love to better emulate in my own mixes is an instrument panned seemingly far left - yet simultaneously filling up the 3D space. And the whole of the mix seeming to have a tight roundness.

Of course there are many ingredients to getting these results but I am particularly interested in approaches to delays and reverbs and how engineers approach a miz from the start to finish with this kind of "shaping" in mind.
Old 2nd September 2004
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Renie's Avatar
 

spherop any particular productions you admire?
Old 2nd September 2004
  #3
Gear Maniac
 
spherop's Avatar
 

Cool question -

The track (Dambalou) that got me on this is on the album
ISSA BAGAYOGO - Timbuktu
http://www.sixdegreesrecords.com/tra...ists/bagayogo/

You can preview a low res version here:
http://www.buymusichere.net/rel/v2_v...pc=65703610622

Various parts of the mix just seem to be in more places than once simultanesously. Like a guitar that is clearly panned left - but also seems to be on the right as well. And in headphones there is this slow wave like flowing motion to the mix.

Nothing unusual necessarily in this track - stuff I hear in a lot of productions.
Old 6th September 2004
  #4
Gear interested
 

Hey there bud,

Yeah, I really pay a lot of attention to that kind of space too. A good example is Emerson, Lake, and Palmer - From the Beginning. The synth solos are surrounded by so much space, even though they are panned. I think it's a good balance of a delay panned to the opposite side, and both dry and wet signal are sending to a room (with respect to send pans of course, ie use more of the delayed sound as your stereo spread)

Hope some of this helps.

Steve
Old 9th September 2004
  #5
Gear interested
 

Check out Human Nature on Michael Jackson's Thriller album. The wispy delays and panning of the vocals and guitars that Bruce Swedien used are absolutely incredible!!! The sense of 3D space in that mix is one of the best I have ever heard.
Old 15th September 2004
  #6
Lives for gear
 
carloff's Avatar
what about technique of invert phases and phase shifts of audio in mix...?
these are really 3D..but what about mono compactibility...?
I checked some your records Dave with PAZ analyzer..seems that some sounds are invert phase or phase shifted..but it is playing in mono the same pretty as in stereo...
How did you make it, man),?
Old 15th September 2004
  #7
Gear addict
 
dhughes's Avatar
 

Have you tried any of the "round pan" pluggins? Spin Audio makes some very bizarre 3D effects. They tend to be kind of extreme but sometimes it is exactly what you need. There is a free one out there to called MDA RoundPan or something like that.

If you really want to go 3D, do it in surround. It is hard to go back
Old 16th September 2004
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Ted Nightshade's Avatar
 

Well delays and 'verbs are OK and have their place but there's nothing like actual microphones in actual rooms at an actual distance. Distance=delay, but with the softness that comes from air and room reflections.

A major factor is "incoherence", which in this context does not describe the intelligibility of my writing, but the degree to which two signals are different and not similar. An electronic delay is virtually identical to the original, whereas a distant mic in a room may be picking up the same source but sounds completely different. This incoherence is a tremendous help with stereo imaging. You can hear the signal from each speaker from anywhere in the room, because of the incoherence.

As for how much delay, be it electronic or in the air, the Haas effect is what to read up on. Short enough, it seems like part of the initial sound, only bigger, long enough, it's a discrete echo. In between, all kinds of magic can happen with skill, practice, and above all listening.

Bob Katz's Mastering Digital Audio book has some good stuff on the topic, as regards tracking and mixing too. It's important to be monitoring in a place at such a distance as to be able to hear front to back dimension! Then you can finesse everything just so into the sweet spots where things jump out at you from the speakers!
Old 16th September 2004
  #9
Gear Maniac
 
spherop's Avatar
 

Great info Ted. Will ponder and work on.

Wondering if certain delays/settings can emulate what you're talking about and not be so exact? To create a more real feel.
Old 17th September 2004
  #10
Gear maniac
 

Heres some cool techniques I found on digi website that might help to satisfy some questions a little until Dave can post more on these topics.........


"Pro Techniques from David Pensado"

By Randy Alberts



Dave Pensado


"I usually give away all my secrets. In fact, this morning I answered three e-mails from student engineers looking for advice," says hip-hop, pop, R&B, and rap engineer/mixer par excellence Dave Pensado. "Every once in a while I get a really great question from someone I think has what it takes to be in this industry. I give those people my phone number."

OK, Dave, don't say DigiZine didn't warn you about including your e-mail in this story.

Every engineer, producer, musician, sound designer, and mixer who has shared their valuable tips with Pro Techniques in the past year comes from the same good place as Pensado does, sharing several few non-billable hours of their time to offer up quotes, comments, photos, screen shots, and tips for us Pro Tools users to prosper from. But Pensado may be raising the bar in terms of public service.

"A couple of the greatest engineers in the world [Phil Benton, Ed Seay] took me under their wing and shared everything they knew. This is the very least I can do. Besides, I've learned far more from teaching than I ever have from being taught."

Here to Help with Pro Tools|HD
Pensado hit his stride in Los Angeles in the '90s, after cutting his teeth in the Atlanta audio scene. These days, he's more than a little busy mixing Billboard chart-topping hits for Christina Aguilera, Justin Timberlake, Kelly Clarkson, Pink, Brian McKnight, Mya, and Destiny's Child. Bel Biv Davoe, KISS, Eternal, Sheena Easton, and Warren G have enjoyed the same #1 touch in the past, and you've also heard his mixes if you've seen White Men Can't Jump, Moulin Rouge, Austin Powers in Goldmember, or Pokemon: The First Movie.

"People want to hear something that sounds new, and Pro Tools is the perfect domain for doing just that," says Pensado. "The thing that's going to finally bring an end to this dumb digital vs. analog discussion is Pro Tools|HD."



Pro Technique 1—
Making bass sound fatter
Before offering any tips, Pensado was quick to point out the philosophical/practical duality of record engineering. Philosophically, one must truly strive to get bigger, fatter, better mixes. If we're not looking for that to begin with, he explains, then we're not going to find it. The practical part is easy.



Pensado with Damon Elliot


"A major problem in achieving a big low end is phase coherence," says Pensado, who knows a little bit about the big bottom in a hip-hop 'n' pop mix. "Most analog equalizers can cause a low end phase shift and a muddying of the bass. There's only a handful of analog EQs, like the Pultecs and API 550's, that don't give you that phase shift. You can get a great low end with those. But the beauty of the digital domain is that there are no capacitors and no transformers, so there's no phase shift. You can take pretty much the least expensive digital EQ plug-in and make it work better for you in achieving a fatter low end."
Pensado breaks his low-end approach into three components: The Last Octave (40-80 Hz), "where most other engineers don't work;" the Next Almost True Octave (80-250 cycles), "where you really have to make the mix stand out on small speakers to give the impression of an enhanced low end;" and the Top End-and-a-Half (250-800 cycles)," where most engineers start muddying things up."

He also strongly urges us to never simply turn up the overall bass EQ to get more low end. The secret is in paying attention to which elements in a frequency range we're actually turning up.

"If we get too much 250 or too much 350, we're going to get that cardboard sort of muddy sound. I'll ask a student, 'Wait, what are you EQ-ing? If you want more bass just take the fader up.' Now, when you turn it up you've got some other frequencies you're interfering with, for instance in the vocals a bit. Just pull out a little 600 or 1k and the bass is still fat and round, and it sounds natural and life is good again. As you do that more and more, you'll acquire the skills of cutting and notching frequencies out of things instead of adding more. That's the difference between a major league engineer and a minor leaguer."

Pro Technique 2 —
The three sacred spots: Making mixes sound wider

Here are three Pensado tips for spreading out the image of a stereo mix:

Accept No Pseudo-Stereo
"Almost every synth has a stereo output, and most people just blindly record the part in stereo," Pensado says. "We tend to do the same with every stereo instrument feed because all the effects returns and plug-ins are in stereo, too, and we think it will all work out. The end result is really just one big-ass mono mix."



Pensado with Billy Gibbons


He suggests listening closely to any stereo output to first ensure it's true stereo, then consider whether two separate mono tracks playing the same part wouldn't work better. In other words, don't be afraid to experiment by turning a stereo Rhodes part into two separate mono tracks with different pans and timbres. Pan one at 9 o'clock and the other at 3 o'clock to add depth and movement without filling sacred aural territory with unnecessary stereo instruments.

"Don't pack everything into the middle and the ends [of the stereo field], and don't accept anything labeled stereo unless it truly is. There are three sacred spots in the mix: Hard left, center, and hard right. If you put something hard left or right, you've got to remind yourself that this is some of the most valuable real estate you have. Is it justifiable for you to place something there? Even more sacred is the middle, because we know we want our vocal there, plus our kick and our snare and our bass guitar, the most important elements. So why blindly pack a bunch of other stuff in the middle? That's sacred territory. As you use that philosophy more, you'll start finding ways to move things outside the mix, too. Now you're forcing yourself to pick up new skills."

Use Multiple Reverb Plug-ins
Pensado follows the same "stereo logic" when using numerous instantiations of reverb plug-ins. "Instead of panning it hard left/right at the returns, just open up several versions of [Digidesign] Reverb One with the same preset open in each, then alter one or more slightly. Set one at hard left, pan the next one hard right, and experiment with decay times and reflections and such. Now you've got a really great stereo reverb, and when you pan and mix between them you create the definite perception of a really wide reverb."

He also suggests playing around with combinations of different manufacturer reverb plug-ins, adjusting parameters like pre-delay amount, midrange decay time, and overall reverb times and using various panning setups to create sweet panning effects.

"Every time you feed a percussive instrument into that setup you'll feel like it's panning left to right. Your ear will pick up on even the most subtle differences if you EQ the returns a bit, which adds to the effect. And back to the philosophical, now you're thinking in terms of making left and right unique rather than just having them be the same thing."

Track Shifting
Another "wide trick" this affable teacher offers up is simple, yet effective. Instead of panning synth or live strings hard left/right, try something a little different next time.

"Just delay one side by seven or eight milliseconds, or maybe even as much as 14 milliseconds," concludes Pensado before he answers a few more e-mails and gets back to work on his new Mya mix." That's not enough of a shift to really notice the timing delay, but it is enough to notice that the track definitely feels wider. Just grab the left side of the strings, even if they're live strings, and shift them forward in time by seven milliseconds. Now, this is the best part: Shift the right side back by seven milliseconds. The overall timing is still what it needs to be, but now the strings sound really wide."
1
Share
Old 21st September 2004
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
kenkelly81's Avatar
 

Hey,

I'm not Silverdisk, but I think this is the link you want.

http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/a...sado/index.cfm

I've also included some other cool links for Dave.
And a link to a page that has so many interview links and refereces to other engineer and producers articals and tips that could keep you busy reading for months.

Enjoy!
Ken

Dave Pensado - Stuff

http://www.eventide.com/r2016/pensado-pi.htm

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...0/ai_114730649

The Project Studio Handbook - There is an unbelievable amount of stuff here.

http://www.theprojectstudiohandbook.com/articles20.htm
1
Share
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
planet red / So much gear, so little time
6
Blast9 / So much gear, so little time
6
jho / So much gear, so little time
2
jon / High end
45

Forum Jump
Forum Jump