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Let's get to the plugins.
Old 1st November 2002
  #1
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bassmac's Avatar
 

Talking Let's get to the plugins!!!

Hi Charles, welcome to Gearslutz.

Got a few plugin questions for ya;

1) Is that list of your favorite plugins on your web site still current, or are there any addendums you'd like to make for us?

2) What do you like for a spankin rock drum sub-mix compressor?

3) On a typical rock mix, where would you use DUY's Wide, Tape and Valve plugs?

That should get us started....

Thanks for joining in. rollz
Old 1st November 2002
  #2
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 

Bassmac,

Thanks for your greetings, and the first post.

Regarding your plug-in questions:

I definitely have a longer list of fave plugs. (I really need to update my site.) Other than the ones listed, a more complete list would include (in no particular order): LexiVerb, TC|MegaVerb, TC|Chor, DPP-1, Meequalizer (amazing Treble!), Waves De-Esser, SoundBlender, Auto-Tune, VocAlign, Beat Detective, DSPider (or Re), Focusrite d2, FilterBank, CompressorBank, DINR, Pitch n' Time 2, Bruno/Reso, Waves C1 (Comp + Gate).

For my rock drum sub-mix compressor, in September's Hard Disk Life column in DIGIZINE I wrote:
Quote:
Compressed Drum Sub Mix

I use two Aux Inputs to accomplish the effect done on analog consoles of adding a compressed drum mix back in with the un-compressed drums to create that light but tight drum sound. I bus all the drums to a Drums bus, then set the inputs on both the Aux's to Drums. I do not send the drum reverbs to the Drums sub mix.

[Drums]

Is the first Aux with only a Time Adjuster inserted set to 69 samples – the amount of delay of the plug-ins in the second Aux [Squish] – to eliminate any phasing. I usually set the level of this fader to 0 db. I then get my sound and balance of the individual drum tracks while monitoring through this fader.

[Squish]

To set up this fader I mute the [Drums] fader and then use an Analog Channel AC1 to add some analog console edge, and RenComp set to really compress the drums. I go for a nice and tight sound on this fader, but usually not too distorted. I then mute it, unmute the [Drums] fader and bring this one up until I hear the desired punch.
About the DUY plug-ins, I usually use Wide across the stereo mix, but I add it in near the end only. And I use DaD Valve + Tape almost everywhere (along with Analog Channel) especially on drums, bass + gtrs, but also on keys, and even Tape on lead vocals. But not always. Too much saturation just makes tracks sound mushy, so I use them only when the tracks sound too digital (or clean) and feel like they could benefit from the added saturation.

About rock mixing. I'm currently mixing a rock song in Hard Disk Life focusing on a group of instruments each month. Drums; Bass + Gtrs; Keyboards; BG's and Lead/Solo Instruments; Lead + Harmony Vocals; Blend, Balance + Stereo Bus Processing; Automation + Creating Dynamics. We began in September, and this month we are doing keyboards (piano, Hammond B-3, strings + synths). Check it out.

Hope this is useful,
Charles
Old 1st November 2002
  #3
First, welcome to the House o' Slutz, Charles!

How do you determine the amount of samples to delay an Aux when double-bussing like you do. I'm attempting the same thing in Logic, using emagic's Sample Delay plug-in, but it's certainly a PITA entering a value, listening for phasing, lather, rinse, repeat... grudge

Is there a formula for directly getting the delay value in samples straightaway? On a native system, is it determined by the hardware buffer size (I keep mine at 128 samples)?

Thanks!

don
Old 1st November 2002
  #4
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jivebrown's Avatar
 

with an LE system, would you have to manually shift the wav file to compensate for the delay caused by the squished track, or is there a way of doing it with a plugin. ive been following your articles in the digizine, and have found them very insightful, and have actually changed my outlook on how i mix things. thank you for all of the tips and hints on how you do things.
Old 2nd November 2002
  #5
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Charles Dye

About the DUY plug-ins, I usually use Wide across the stereo mix, but I add it in near the end only. Hope this is useful,
Charles
Did you use this on "Livin La Vita Loco"? There's a real cool spaital funkiness to that track. When I first heard it and went back and forth from MONO to STEREO, it was like rollz .
Old 2nd November 2002
  #6
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Charles Dye's Avatar
 

don,

Thanks for the welcome to the House.

In PT it is done by command clicking on the fader level amount. It then toggles to the amount of delay from your current plug-ins on that track. There must be an easier way than trial + error. Does anyone else know the answer to this?

Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Old 2nd November 2002
  #7
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Charles Dye's Avatar
 

jivebrown,

On TDM systems a plug-in called Time Adjuster comes included, but it may not be included in PT|LE because it's purpose is to help deal with plug-in delay compensation and the way plug-in delay is handled on LE systems is different (I think). I'm not that familiar with the differences between the two (since I don't own an LE system) so I can't say for sure. Sorry.

I believe Jules' second system is an LE. Jules, do you know if LE has the Time Adjuster plug-in?

As far as shifting the tracks, that would only work if you had two sets of drum tracks, so you could shift one and not the other. Though, this is actually quite a workable idea. Print a stereo mix of the drums, and then squish the crap out of it. Slide it in time, and then blend it in with the unprocessed drums. Tell me how that works out.

Thank you for your kind compliments about my column Hard Disk Life. It really means a lot to me when somebody says what you said.
Old 2nd November 2002
  #8
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e-cue,

Thanks very much for the compliment. But, no that mix was before I started using Wide across the bus. Part of that sound was a lot of hard left + right panning especially the horns, and TC|Chorus – Hi-Trash Flanger on the 1/16th note percolating synth ("doink, doink, doink,....") that's in much of the song, but really loud in the Re-Intro. And the same flange on Ricky's voice in the two open bars @ the top of Verse 2.

For good ole' style (non-phase based) widening I also like to use DPP-1 in an emulation of a pair of split Eventide 910 Harmonizers. Using a mono Aux Input and a Mono/Stereo DPP-1, I set one side to –9 cents with a delay of 14ms, and no feedback. I set the other side to +9 cents, a delay of 19ms, and no feedback. I then pan them hard left and right. Just after the DPP-1 I insert an LPF at 16k to roll-off the top end. This helps emulate 910's because they had less bandwidth. It does a very good job at widening mono signals, as well as thickening stereo ones.
Old 2nd November 2002
  #9
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bassmac's Avatar
 

Thanks for the tips Charles, you da man.

LE doesn't have Time Adjuster. For simple way to handle the plugin delay between a compressed, and uncompressed aux, such as with drum sub-mix's; just insert the same plugin on both aux's, and put the uncompressed one in "bypass", or with a zero threshold. This gives both aux's the exact same delay.

Sure, both might have a 64 sample delay compared to the rest of the mix - but that's called "feel".

Heck, Charlie Watts has about 2000 sample delay already built in - and some of the best feel on the planet! rollz

heh
Old 3rd November 2002
  #10
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by bassmac
For simple way to handle the plugin delay between a compressed, and uncompressed aux...just insert the same plugin on both aux's, and put the uncompressed one in "bypass"
Thats an excellent solution to that problem. Thanks.
Old 4th November 2002
  #11
Gear Head
 
jivebrown's Avatar
 

what plugins (for a pc LE setup), would give a similar anologue feel to that of the duy stuff? i have been mixing a live album of my old band, which i had no involvement in the recording, and i need to warm things up a bit. basically i am trying to get some sort of saturation happening. i cant seem to get the snare to thwack the way i would like it. overall i just want to add some "stink " to the tracks. and i mean the GOOD kind of stink. rollz
Old 5th November 2002
  #12
Gear Guru
 

Charles-

To go back to the quotes from Digizine about the drum submix, I don't understand why you would delay the original drums to catch up to the processed tracks.

Wouldn't Advancing the _processed track be "better" in the sense of keeping the timing of the original drum track?

Am I missing something?
Old 5th November 2002
  #13
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Charles Dye's Avatar
 

jivebrown,

I've researched this and I'm sorry to say that I don't know of any, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Does anyone else know?

joeq,

In the set-up I was describing in Hard Disk Life you can't advance the processed tracks, because there is not a seperate set of drum tracks for proccessed and another for unproccessed. There is instead only one set of drum tracks (1 BD, 1 SN, 1 HH, etc...) and it is providing the audio for both the processed ("Squish") and unprocessed ("Drums") Aux Inputs. Does that make sense?
Old 5th November 2002
  #14
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jivebrown's Avatar
 

thanks charles, that seems to be my problem a lot of the time. the plugins are available to me at the studio on the mac, but i am doing this project at home on my PC. thanks for the reply, how about any of the bombfactory stuff, now that it is supposed to work on XP. anyone have any ideas.
Old 5th November 2002
  #15
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bassmac's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by joeq
Wouldn't Advancing the _processed track be "better" in the sense of keeping the timing of the original drum track?
This hadn't occurred to me, but... you could do this by using the "duplicate" method of drum sub-mixing... which I learned from Jules.

Duplicate each drum track first > advance the "copies" by the amount of delay the comp will be creating > send them all to the comp > squash 'em, and blend 'em in with the original tracks. Presto!

Old 5th November 2002
  #16
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Hi all
couple questions...
First of all, if you are somewhat plugin deficient (not enough), is a sony EQ (over the Focusrite that I already have) on top of the to get list. I have been able to make the decision that (for me). I'm not able to get exactly what I want with the Focusrite...and if you put more than 2db or so of EQ on something, it's not helping out like I would predict it to with outboard stuff, etc. etc. , even with wide Q's.

I have a HD3 with the plugin pack (version 1) and I have been making a lot of other purchases, so plugins are on the list, but they are just on the list.

So if I was to spend $1500-$2000 on some more plugs....Do I just go for the Waves Gold Pack, or do I buy some individuals like the Sony EQ, some DUY plugs, maybe MCdsp2000 multi band comp, etc. etc....Any suggestions are appreciated...
What I feel specifically is on top of the list is a multiband comp/and or superior limiter (to the Maxim), A cleaner EQ, and a widener plug.

still trying to get my bread and butter plugs...

thanks!!
Old 5th November 2002
  #17
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 

jivebrown,

I have not used all the bf plugs, but you can definetely get an overdriven sound out of the Meequalizer (and that's if you just sneeze at it). Check it out. It's not a very flexible EQ, but it truly has onw of the most amazing top end sounds I've heard on any EQ (hard or plug). I would suppose the other tube based models would also have various amount of analog fuzz. You can probably download demos for all of them.
Old 5th November 2002
  #18
Gear Head
 
jivebrown's Avatar
 

charles, again, thanks for the reply. i think i might have to try out the meequalizer. i have used some of the other bf plugs at the studio, but havent heard that particular plug yet. always up for trying out new things. doug, i really dig the waves gold bundle, granted, i havent got the mcdsp or the duy plugs, so i cant compare the sound, but for the money, i use the crap out of every waves plug i have.
Old 6th November 2002
  #19
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groundcontrol's Avatar
 

Doug, go to the Sony site and try the Oxford eq demo. Since a good eq is one of the most important tool for mixing I think you owe it to yourself to try and get the best you can. Personnaly I feel that's the plug in I've got the most return for my money from. YMMV of course...
Old 6th November 2002
  #20
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You can also do a similar thing to Jule's duplicate tracks scheme by by setting up 2 (or more) drum subgroups, and using aux sends to get to the subgroups instead of the output assignment (just set that to an unused "dummy" pair). This way you can send different amounts to the different subgroups (sometimes I don't want all those cymbals in my squishy group), and not have to double up on the tracks & plugins. Sometimes I make the aux send to the "squishy" subgroup pre-fader, so my mix moves won't effect the squishy balance.
Old 6th November 2002
  #21
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Charles Dye's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by doug_hti
Do I just go for the Waves Gold Pack, or do I buy some individuals like the Sony EQ, some DUY plugs, maybe MCdsp2000 multi band comp, etc. etc....
I'm a huge fan of the Waves Gold bundle, it's got a great comp (Ren), great EQ (Ren), De-Esser, Flanger, + it also has a multi-band. (I've not tried the Sony EQ to make the comparison, but will soon—can you chime in Jules?) I also love the DUY + McDSP analog saturation plugs. You've got to try them.
Old 6th November 2002
  #22
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Good advice juniorhifikit. Thanks.
Old 6th November 2002
  #23
"You can also do a similar thing to Jule's duplicate tracks scheme by by setting up 2 (or more) drum subgroups, and using aux sends to get to the subgroups instead of the output assignment (just set that to an unused "dummy" pair). This way you can send different amounts to the different subgroups (sometimes I don't want all those cymbals in my squishy group), and not have to double up on the tracks & plugins. Sometimes I make the aux send to the "squishy" subgroup pre-fader, so my mix moves won't effect the squishy balance."

I've tried this, it IS a workaround the present latency nightmare, to get you custom blends in each drum subgroup. However it means mixing your drums with the mini send faders NOT the main mixer faders and this seems a total nonsence if you have paid for a Pro Control like I have....

yuktyy
Old 7th November 2002
  #24
Jax
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charles Dye
I'm a huge fan of the Waves Gold bundle, it's got a great comp (Ren), great EQ (Ren), De-Esser, Flanger, + it also has a multi-band.
Only for the sake of comparison to Waves C4, I wanted to point of that the stock multi-band compressor in Samplitude is one of the best I've ever heard. It's not as easily tweakable as C4, but on a cost comparison scale to Waves Gold Bundle, if you already have a PC, getting into the Samplitude software is a good idea. You can match the quality of the Waves plug-ins you'd use most often, and acquire a very deep, mature, robust PC recording/mixing program to boot. Also, the mixbus of Samplitude is much clearer and a lot more difficult to overload than that of PT, IMHO.

The thing to consider if anyone does make this move is that you will need to link the i/o from your PT system to that of your PC. A Hammerfall card and at least one 8 channel adat card (or adat bridge [16 ch.] on older PT) would be a must. Even with these additions, you're still very close to what the Waves Gold Bundle costs.

P.S. - I have Waves plug-ins as well as Samplitude. The two together answer a lot of the problems associated with low DSP single card PT Mix systems, and, when I upgrade to PTHD, Samplitude will still be linked at the i/o because it operates at 96k. I mention that because I don't want to rely on HD's onboard SR conversion if I don't have to, and having the Samplitude processing already there is one less batch of plug-ins I have to wait to have upgraded (or watch $$ go down the tubes if not upgraded).
Old 7th November 2002
  #25
I'm not convinced by plug-ins. On seeing what Charles has been up to I have to start taking them seriously again however. Very interesting to read the thoughts of the other contributors also.
Last night I had a listen to the Altiverb demo (after reading some good reports in this thread). The problem I have with it, and with other reverb plug-ins I've tried, is that it seems to send the recorded instrument to the back of the audio. If I add a hardware reverb to a sound in PT it usually adds some space or 'air' around the sound while the sound itself seems to hold it's position in the mix. The Altiverb (and others) seems to sit the original sound back however. What gives?
The only plug-ins I currently use are the DUY ones, mostly in the mastering process. They are undersold IMO and great value for money.
Old 7th November 2002
  #26
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[QOUTE]I've tried this, it IS a workaround the present latency nightmare, to get you custom blends in each drum subgroup. However it means mixing your drums with the mini send faders NOT the main mixer faders and this seems a total nonsence if you have paid for a Pro Control like I have....[/QUOTE]

Actually, by puting the post fader aux sends at unity, you can mix with the regular faders. Only the pre-fader sends to the squishy bus are a pain
Old 7th November 2002
  #27
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Hmm... my quotes never work, and my avatar never shows upmadd
Old 7th November 2002
  #28
Quote:
Originally posted by juniorhifikit
Hmm... my quotes never work, and my avatar never shows upmadd
Hit the "Quote" button instead of misspelling [QOUTE], maybe?
Old 8th November 2002
  #29
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oops:eek:
Old 11th November 2002
  #30
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Analog Channel

Quote:
I also love the DUY + McDSP analog saturation plugs. You've got to try them.

I was reading through Digizine, and hit the column where Andy Zulla discusses his use of AC-2 to "get the analog summing kind of sound":

http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/p...idol/index.cfm

Quote:
"So, I'll have eight aux channels, drums, vocals, guitars, bass, keyboards, whatever, and I can expand the mix if I want to have more sub groups," he concludes. "On each one, I'll put one of these Analog Channels and somehow the way that they simulate the bus compression on an SSL or whatever when they sum together provides this warm, rich, analog character to everything you run through it."
I'm curious of other proponents of Analog Channel are doing the same thing, perhaps for the same reasons?

-cal
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