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Lots of Red Lights/Clipping on the Apollo and in PT .. ?? Drum Machines & Samplers
Old 8th July 2017
  #1
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Lots of Red Lights/Clipping on the Apollo and in PT .. ??

Lots of Red Lights on the Apollo and in PT .. ?? are you doing this on purpose ??
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Old 8th July 2017
  #2
Electron shuffler
 
TonyD's Avatar
Clipping?

Hey guys, this is super fun to watch!

I'm not familiar with the Apollo particularly, but seems like there's a lot of red-lining going on across the board. Obviously it's not oversight, what's the thought process behind running the converter inputs that hot? Is it to hit the console line inputs harder?
Old 8th July 2017
  #3
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I see your peaking allot

I just wanted to know if this was healthy for the mix.
Old 8th July 2017
  #4
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any chance of getting this answered ??? thank you
Old 10th July 2017
  #5
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Clipping and digital can't be healthy. !!!!
Old 10th July 2017
  #6
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Hi all,

Joel and I talked about it and he was into the way it was sounding so we carried on, clipping and all.

On the horns, we used a Unison 610-B with the RCA 77DX mic, and we purposely overdrove the input to make them splat and the preamp was perfect for it!

Probably not suitable for every track, but it seemed to work on this track.

Cheers!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
Old 10th July 2017
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Audio View Post
Hi all,

Joel and I talked about it and he was into the way it was sounding so we carried on, clipping and all.

On the horns, we used a Unison 610-B with the RCA 77DX mic, and we purposely overdrove the input to make them splat and the preamp was perfect for it!

Probably not suitable for every track, but it seemed to work on this track.

Cheers!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa

hi Gannon, again, thank you for the info ... i have a couple composers that love the color Red too !!! and it is all about what it sounds like for sure ... lets hope this does not become a trend .. or we might have to have a new threshold of Input Clipping !!

cheers john
Old 10th July 2017
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
hi Gannon, again, thank you for the info ... i have a couple composers that love the color Red too !!! and it is all about what it sounds like for sure ... lets hope this does not become a trend .. or we might have to have a new threshold of Input Clipping !!

cheers john
Agreed, although there have been times when I've really liked the sound of recording a tad bit too hot.

A famous software developer told me once "Stand up and clip like a man!", so even though I'm pretty conservative when it comes to record levels, I keep that in the back of my mind. ;-)

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
Old 10th July 2017
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Audio View Post
Agreed, although there have been times when I've really liked the sound of recording a tad bit too hot.

A famous software developer told me once "Stand up and clip like a man!", so even though I'm pretty conservative when it comes to record levels, I keep that in the back of my mind. ;-)

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
LOL .. Clip Like a Man !!! sounds like the beginning of a great new Tune !!!
Old 10th July 2017
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Audio View Post
Hi all,

Joel and I talked about it and he was into the way it was sounding so we carried on, clipping and all.
Was this audible clipping, or just red lights?
Old 10th July 2017
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Was this audible clipping, or just red lights?
I didn't hear any clipping - it was just nice and fat.

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
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Old 10th July 2017
  #12
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hmmm
would indicate over driving the input.
make sure your mic pres are line in and not mic in?
check your input trim on the console settings?
engage a pad on the console/channel?
Old 10th July 2017
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Audio View Post
I didn't hear any clipping - it was just nice and fat.

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
hi gannon, may i ask what your Line Input settings were on the SSL - all the way down and the pad engaged ?? ... seems like Full Scale Peaks in Digital would be what, about +24 analog !!!! yahoo .. good times .. Saturation of the transformers .. probably help softened the blow a little ..

but i could be wrong not knowing what "Zero" was calibrated to between the outputs of the Apollo's and the SSL .. so please don;t tar and feather me too bad !!!

cheers john
Old 10th July 2017
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Audio View Post
I didn't hear any clipping - it was just nice and fat.
Hard to imagine that the two of you wouldn't hear digital clipping if there actually was any. Is it possible that the metering is a bit conservative?
Old 10th July 2017
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Audio View Post
Hi all,

Joel and I talked about it and he was into the way it was sounding so we carried on, clipping and all.

On the horns, we used a Unison 610-B with the RCA 77DX mic, and we purposely overdrove the input to make them splat and the preamp was perfect for it!

Probably not suitable for every track, but it seemed to work on this track.

Cheers!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Audio View Post
I didn't hear any clipping - it was just nice and fat.

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
Sounds legit...
Old 11th July 2017
  #16
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Universal Audio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
hi gannon, may i ask what your Line Input settings were on the SSL - all the way down and the pad engaged ?? ... seems like Full Scale Peaks in Digital would be what, about +24 analog !!!! yahoo .. good times .. Saturation of the transformers .. probably help softened the blow a little ..

but i could be wrong not knowing what "Zero" was calibrated to between the outputs of the Apollo's and the SSL .. so please don;t tar and feather me too bad !!!

cheers john
Hi John,

Joel treats the DAW like smart tape machine. He brings it back through tape returns and works in mix mode on the desk the whole time, so there are no line inputs or pads, just direct from the Apollo 16 to the top of the channel.

The channels were running pretty hot and he kept the channel faders fairly low to keep the mix under control. He really knows the console and outboard signal paths and knows exactly where to get nice, fat saturation from it.

Cheers!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
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Old 11th July 2017
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Hard to imagine that the two of you wouldn't hear digital clipping if there actually was any. Is it possible that the metering is a bit conservative?
Hi Brent,

That occurred to me as well, and it's possible but I didn't have time to check meters throughout the system.

One thing to be aware of is that Apollo's hardware meters clip at -0.002 dBFS, so that may have lit the red light more frequently.

Here's a Knowledge Base article on it, if you're curious.

https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/art...istortion-Why-

Cheers!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
Old 11th July 2017
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Audio View Post
Hi John,

Joel treats the DAW like smart tape machine. He brings it back through tape returns and works in mix mode on the desk the whole time, so there are no line inputs or pads, just direct from the Apollo 16 to the top of the channel.

The channels were running pretty hot and he kept the channel faders fairly low to keep the mix under control. He really knows the console and outboard signal paths and knows exactly where to get nice, fat saturation from it.

Cheers!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
right on .. and thx again for the information .. and next time "Smile for the Camera" !!! cheers john
Old 11th July 2017
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Audio View Post
Hi Brent,

That occurred to me as well, and it's possible but I didn't have time to check meters throughout the system.

One thing to be aware of is that Apollo's hardware meters clip at -0.002 dBFS, so that may have lit the red light more frequently.

Here's a Knowledge Base article on it, if you're curious.

https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/art...istortion-Why-

Cheers!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
and thx for the Metering info, i was very curious of this too .. and when i get back in front of my buddies Apollo system will check it out thoroughly ...

cheers and beer john
Old 13th July 2017
  #20
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Pro Tools very often triggers its clip indicators when arming and unarming tracks, which is what it looks like happened here. I see this all the time. So much so that I hit Option-C which globally clears clips instinctually all the time.

I can tell by the waveforms that nothing was actually clipping. Joel was saturating and compressing pretty much every input so much that there is/was very little peak information.
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Old 13th July 2017
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
I can tell by the waveforms that nothing was actually clipping.
Actually, if there are plugins in the chain pre-PT, it's possible to clip them severely while also lowering the overall level that hits PT. When this happens, the clipping indicators will come on and stay on in the chain with the plugins, but not on the "receiving" PT track. The resulting waveforms will look totally fine, even though the audio isn't.
Old 13th July 2017
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Actually, if there are plugins in the chain pre-PT, it's possible to clip them severely while also lowering the overall level that hits PT. When this happens, the clipping indicators will come on and stay on in the chain with the plugins, but not on the "receiving" PT track. The resulting waveforms will look totally fine, even though the audio isn't.
Of course. But the clip indicators on the recording tracks are what I was referring to.
Old 14th July 2017
  #23
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Hi there.
The clipping was very much intentional.
There is a sound to hitting things hard that can work... listen to a snare sample coming out of an MPC60 that is clipping the output-- entire genres worth of sounds are based on things that play right up against the limitations of the given format or equipment used.
The combination of great , well recorded close mics that had all the meat and transient information intact, and the abused room mics and horns and a few other things-- those tracks carry the spirit of the "block party" 57 getting shouted into and a small mixer and PA getting pounded on to make a euphoric sound.
The UA converters did an amazing job standing up to this and the inputs did some very musical things when getting slammed into. If they didn't, we would have backed off by putting something between them and the pre-- so I could still crank up some gain on the snare, or the room mics-- now with the unison pre's like on the horns, it simply sounded perfect to me exactly as it was, so we left it.
Please know that "if it sounds good it is good" is more than just a cute cliche. It's a fundamental fact of recording.
I hope that helps. I am for sure into the waybthe unison pre's handled the transition to saturating.
Old 14th July 2017
  #24
I for one don't mind clipping on the Apollos and have told friends using this gear the same.

In fact one of my favorite drum sounds I have gotten was running it through an outboard vintage EQ and tube compressor then back into a Silver Apollo and it was in the Red for sure. Like Joel mentioned, it similarly reminds me of a saturated MPC sound...actually has more bite than a purely analog tape or tube saturation. People freak out about digital clipping, but since the Apollo I really haven't worried too much about it anymore and focus on making creative sounds.
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