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Reason 8 Announced by Propellerhead! DAW Software
Old 12th August 2014
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
For my needs, Mixbus definitely has a better way to sum than Reason...more depth, more plausible soundstage, better definition and separation of instruments, etc. - I hear that with music made using Slate, Nebula, etc....also music that is summed in hardware.

I'm sure the Mixbus tape FX makes a difference but there is definitely some critical aspect of summing ITB that Reason doesn't do as well in comparison IMO.

Not sure why
Hate to burst your bubble, but there is nothing going on with Mixbus, Slate, NLS, or any of the other "console emulations" that is fundamentally different than what is going on with the Reason "summing engine" (or Pro Tools, or Logic, or Cubase, or any other for that matter). They are all simply using addition, with varying degrees of precision (though most use 32-or-64-bit floating point math internally now). In other words, they all sum the same!

What is different between them is how they handle individual channels and/or busses - for instance, Mixbus and Slate/NLS all use varying degrees of pre-set EQ and saturation, as well as some form of "crosstalk emulation" (which is pretty debatable) to give more of a "hardware sound". More importantly than that, though, is the fact that they force you to use some degree of "sub-bussing" between groups, creating cohesive groups of sounds that get processed together to one degree or another. The result of this is that they tend to "smear" everything together (some call it "glue", though that is usually reserved for compressors around here for some reason) in decidedly pleasing ways - hell, I use NLS, Satin, and/or Mixbus for that effect when I want it!

Hardware is a different deal, really, but in the end it is the same principle - a lot of the "hardware sound" with clean consoles (especially SSL) comes from the encouraged/forced subgroupings that they inherently have.

Most people who do [simple] digital mixing use far fewer subgroupings, or at least less processed ones, than those who mix on consoles. In other words, there are less "busses" in those mixes, giving the various parts less chance to "gel" together into "more depth, more plausible soundstage, better definition and separation of instruments, etc". If you go through the trouble to replicate this way of working in Reason (or any other DAW for that matter, except Live with its problematic PDC), you can achieve remarkably similar results. At least, in theory and in my experience.

All that being said, it would be awesome if Reason made this process easier - for instance, if it were to integrate some more "console-emulation-esque" features such as per-channel-and-buss "tape saturation". You can, of course, do the same thing with Audiomatic or Scream, but that is pretty labor-intensive. Even cooler would be if they were to integrate more [optional] consoles into the system, such as an API, Neve, Trident, or Helios, with appropriate channel strips and saturations - but that seems like a mammoth undertaking, and one that, in the end, would IMHO go over people's heads.
Old 12th August 2014
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
For my needs, Mixbus definitely has a better way to sum than Reason...more depth, more plausible soundstage, better definition and separation of instruments, etc. - I hear that with music made using Slate, Nebula, etc....also music that is summed in hardware.

I'm sure the Mixbus tape FX makes a difference but there is definitely some critical aspect of summing ITB that Reason doesn't do as well in comparison IMO.

Not sure why
Why are you comparing apples to oranges? Two entirely different applications with two entirely different workflows.
Old 12th August 2014
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dented42ford View Post
Hate to burst your bubble...
No bubbles to be burst...There are better ways to sum ITB than Reason...that is audible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alekto View Post
Why are you comparing apples to oranges? Two entirely different applications with two entirely different workflows.
I'm not. I use Reason to compose/create and Mixbus for summing...the only time I've compared them is in terms of summing.

Besides which, why not compare them...after all, both DAW's are used to make music.
Old 12th August 2014
  #34
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sam c's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
For my needs, Mixbus definitely has a better way to sum than Reason...more depth, more plausible soundstage, better definition and separation of instruments, etc. - I hear that with music made using Slate, Nebula, etc....also music that is summed in hardware.

I'm sure the Mixbus tape FX makes a difference but there is definitely some critical aspect of summing ITB that Reason doesn't do as well in comparison IMO.

Not sure why
This get's back to the argument my DAW sounds better than your DAW. Which has been beat to death on forums...do a null test and Mixbus nulls with them all, even Reason... if you remove the inline saturation on Mixbus.
Old 12th August 2014
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by sam c View Post
This get's back to the argument my DAW sounds better than your DAW. Which has been beat to death on forums...do a null test and Mixbus nulls with them all, even Reason... if you remove the inline saturation on Mixbus.
Total straw man. I use Reason for composing/creating and Mixbus for summing - IMO it sounds better that way.

You're welcome to check my Soundcloud page where I've published a Mixbus and Reason version of the same demo track; I hear a difference.

The bottom line is that I will use what sounds best to me - not what anyone else thinks should sound best.
Old 12th August 2014
  #36
Lives for gear
 

[QUOTE=dented42ford;10330252]Hate to burst your bubble, but there is nothing going on with Mixbus, Slate, NLS, or any of the other "console emulations" that is fundamentally different than what is going on with the Reason "summing engine" (or Pro Tools, or Logic, or Cubase, or any other for that matter). They are all simply using addition, with varying degrees of precision (though most use 32-or-64-bit floating point math internally now). In other words, they all sum the same!

What is different between them is how they handle individual channels and/or busses - for instance, Mixbus and Slate/NLS all use varying degrees of pre-set EQ and saturation, as well as some form of "crosstalk emulation" (which is pretty debatable) to give more of a "hardware sound". More importantly than that, though, is the fact that they force you to use some degree of "sub-bussing" between groups, creating cohesive groups of sounds that get processed together to one degree or another. The result of this is that they tend to "smear" everything together (some call it "glue", though that is usually reserved for compressors around here for some reason) in decidedly pleasing ways - hell, I use NLS, Satin, and/or Mixbus for that effect when I want it!

Hardware is a different deal, really, but in the end it is the same principle - a lot of the "hardware sound" with clean consoles (especially SSL) comes from the encouraged/forced subgroupings that they inherently have.
MIxbuss is actually doing something different - adding all that stuff on top - yes without it its just a floating point summing engine. Still surprised so many seem to be OK with the current Reason sequencer. Out of all the DAWs Ive tried its just so incredibly bad I couldnt believe it. Im hoping that with a full point release and no razzle dazzle theyre making a big statement with the look of the GUI and the sequencer - nothing more than that to go on at the moment
Old 12th August 2014
  #37
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sam c's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Total straw man. I use Reason for composing/creating and Mixbus for summing - IMO it sounds better that way.

You're welcome to check my Soundcloud page where I've published a Mixbus and Reason version of the same demo track; I hear a difference.

The bottom line is that I will use what sounds best to me - not what anyone else thinks should sound best.
You misunderstand. I think they all sound the same...and I believe null tests prove that. I would never suggest one over another for sound quality.
Old 12th August 2014
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by sam c View Post
You misunderstand. I think they all sound the same...and I believe null tests prove that. I would never suggest one over another for sound quality.
OK, I challenge you to publish two versions of the same audio file...one using Reason and one using Mixbus.
Old 12th August 2014
  #39
Again, props is milking me. This should be an update.

I like that the line 6 stuff is going. The settings just were mediocre and needed tons of gain in my experience.

Im getting sorta sick of buying the program each time they change the smallest thing. I just got 7 last month!

7 was feature packed, and made sense as a new version.
Old 12th August 2014
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogma View Post
MIxbuss is actually doing something different - adding all that stuff on top - yes without it its just a floating point summing engine. Still surprised so many seem to be OK with the current Reason sequencer. Out of all the DAWs Ive tried its just so incredibly bad I couldnt believe it. Im hoping that with a full point release and no razzle dazzle theyre making a big statement with the look of the GUI and the sequencer - nothing more than that to go on at the moment
(For one thing, please clean up your post so people can tell what you said - pretty confusing as it is.)

Please tell me, what is it doing differently, other than what I pointed out? I've done a fair few semi-scientific tests with it, and my conclusion was that the pleasing effects it achieves come from routing and processing, not the "mixing architecture" itself. After all, the summing code of Mixbus is open source - you can go look it up for yourself!

Also, I do believe that their focus with this point release is on usability and sequencer improvements. They've already addressed most of the issues I commonly encounter in their released lit (notably the MIDI editing weirdnesses), which to me bodes well for the future. That's why I'm so adamant that people give the PHeads a fair shake with this release - when was the last time you saw a DAW company genuinely try to improve workflow over adding some flash-bang new feature?

Of course, it should also be noted that the punter's response is totally predictable - "Oh, a new browser and improvements to the sequencer? Those things I've been complaining about for years? Nah, not worth my $130..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by sam c View Post
You misunderstand. I think they all sound the same...and I believe null tests prove that. I would never suggest one over another for sound quality.


Sam, I think your perfectly rational point is falling on deliberately deaf ears. But hey, we all have our windmills to tilt at!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
OK, I challenge you to publish two versions of the same audio file...one using Reason and one using Mixbus.
Speaking of tilting at windmills...

That is an incredibly, unbelievably stupid thing to demand. The two products aren't directly comparable in this way. I don't mean that they both can't do the job, I mean that it is impossible to conduct a scientific test - so what would be the point? It would be completely subjective!

Mixbus is a fine product, and has its place, but man Arthur, you are really dead set on comparing apples to hand grenades, aren't you!
Old 12th August 2014
  #41
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sam c's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
OK, I challenge you to publish two versions of the same audio file...one using Reason and one using Mixbus.
https://soundcloud.com/samsc/gtr-mixbus

https://soundcloud.com/samsc/gtr-reason

A simple short guitar lick recorded in Mixbus and Reason. Recorded dry, marshall amp, prs HB II, Sure KSM 32 via Apollo Twin Duo. Saturation in Mixbus is bypassed. Although one file states Mixbus and one Reason you will have to tell me if they have been labeled correctly!

There are many null tests available on Gearslutz. Some have taken the time to null PT, Samplitude, Reaper, Reason, Mixbus, Cubase, and more. If you do not understand the requirements you can easily look them up...or just listen.
Old 12th August 2014
  #42
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sam c's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dented42ford View Post
(For one thing, please clean up your post so people can tell what you said - pretty confusing as it is.)



Speaking of tilting at windmills...

That is an incredibly, unbelievably stupid thing to demand. The two products aren't directly comparable in this way. I don't mean that they both can't do the job, I mean that it is impossible to conduct a scientific test - so what would be the point? It would be completely subjective!

Mixbus is a fine product, and has its place, but man Arthur, you are really dead set on comparing apples to hand grenades, aren't you!
Well, null tests and pointing out that DAW's sound the same is a tough thing for folks to believe that have already made up their minds that their DAW of choice has a more "plausible soundstage."

What you will find from my posting is the two files null. So even if you chose not to guess which is which...they null, therefore they are the same...that is the best point I can try to make.
Old 12th August 2014
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by sam c View Post
Well, null tests and pointing out that DAW's sound the same is a tough thing for folks to believe that have already made up their minds that their DAW of choice has a more "plausible soundstage."

What you will find from my posting is the two files null. So even if you chose not to guess which is which...they null, therefore they are the same...that is the best point I can try to make.
I get that - in fact, I've done these tests myself, using more complicated things than a single guitar track. That is why I believe what I do - that it is the user that matters, not the tool, though also that each tool has its place. Personally, I like having a big toolbox, even if I only really use a couple of different screwdrivers...

[slap] No metaphors for you!
Me: Yes sir, officer!

My point was that folks like Arthur will not be swayed, no matter how many times you prove that the basis of their beliefs are faulty. People who have an objective viewpoint will keep seeing windmills, while people who insist on subjective superiority will keep seeing giants. These are, of course, the same people who believe in elixirs of vitality, even after the results of consumption are obvious...
Old 12th August 2014
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by dented42ford View Post
...That is an incredibly, unbelievably stupid thing to demand. The two products aren't directly comparable in this way. I don't mean that they both can't do the job, I mean that it is impossible to conduct a scientific test - so what would be the point? It would be completely subjective!

Mixbus is a fine product, and has its place, but man Arthur, you are really dead set on comparing apples to hand grenades, aren't you!
It only appears stupid if you misunderstand why I challenged SamC; Sam obviously understands why as he has responded.

Whatever theory may tell you, for me it is what works in practice that is important. I'm not alone in noticing advantages to summing outside of Reason.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sam c View Post
https://soundcloud.com/samsc/gtr-mixbus

https://soundcloud.com/samsc/gtr-reason

A simple short guitar lick recorded in Mixbus and Reason. Recorded dry, marshall amp, prs HB II, Sure KSM 32 via Apollo Twin Duo. Saturation in Mixbus is bypassed. Although one file states Mixbus and one Reason you will have to tell me if they have been labeled correctly!
As we are discussing summing I think that a comparison based on multiple tracks/stems or a complex stereo mix (e.g. panned sources) would be better at highlighting the differences I hear between summing in Reason and Mixbus...after all, that's what I use Mixbus for, for those reasons (i.e. panning; separation; soundstage; etc.)...those elements would need to be present to demonstrate the difference.

BTW do you hear a difference between the files?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sam c View Post
...There are many null tests available on Gearslutz. Some have taken the time to null PT, Samplitude, Reaper, Reason, Mixbus, Cubase, and more. If you do not understand the requirements you can easily look them up...or just listen.
Do have a link to where Reason and Mixbus are nulled please?

To be honest Sam, I think you've taken a comment I made earlier - "there are better ways to sum ITB" [than Reason] - and you've superimposed some larger debate about actual or perceived differences between DAW nulling onto that comment completely out-of-context. The thread is about Reason 8...not about nulling science.

A criticism of Reason is it's summing capability...how it sounds in relation to other methods; some, myself included, have obtained better results using other solutions. I think it's reasonable to say this this in a thread about Reason.
Old 12th August 2014
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by dented42ford View Post
...My point was that folks like Arthur will not be swayed, no matter how many times you prove that the basis of their beliefs are faulty. People who have an objective viewpoint will keep seeing windmills, while people who insist on subjective superiority will keep seeing giants. These are, of course, the same people who believe in elixirs of vitality, even after the results of consumption are obvious...
I think you should stop personalising this debate; it's a sure sign of a flaky argument when one has to resort to ad hominems and strawmen. The thread is about Reason 8 and I've made valid comments.

Listen to the first four bars of each of the files on this page and tell me you don't hear a difference: https://soundcloud.com/arthurstone/s...on-mixbus-demo

It's not a scientific test: it's a decision made by a musician...whether that is objective or subjective is irrelevant.
Old 12th August 2014
  #46
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sam c's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
It only appears stupid if you misunderstand why I challenged SamC; Sam obviously understands why as he has responded.

Whatever theory may tell you, for me it is what works in practice that is important. I'm not alone in noticing advantages to summing outside of Reason.
There are advantages, plug ins for one...and I am sure others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
As we are discussing summing I think that a comparison based on multiple tracks/stems or a complex stereo mix (e.g. panned sources) would be better at highlighting the differences I hear between summing in Reason and Mixbus...after all, that's what I use Mixbus for, for those reasons (i.e. panning; separation; soundstage; etc.)...those elements would need to be present to demonstrate the difference.
You need to understand nulling and what the science is about to understand why this is an almost impossible task, and unnecessary to prove one sounds exactly the same as another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
BTW do you hear a difference between the files?
Of course not, there is no difference, that is my point. If a DAW takes a single file (technically it should be a sine wave or similar) and processes it...then it nulls with the same file from another DAW...you have exact duplicates. My two guitar stems null. That means Reason and Mixbus process signals the same, as expected...there is no difference...and it will happen through the entire process as long as plug ins and other artifacts are not introduced, period!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Do have a link to where Reason and Mixbus are nulled please?
Do a search or use my guitar stems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
To be honest Sam, I think you've taken a comment I made earlier - "there are better ways to sum ITB" [than Reason] - and you've superimposed some larger debate about actual or perceived differences between DAW nulling onto that comment completely out-of-context. The thread is about Reason 8...not about nulling science.
No, I am saying there is no difference in the way Reason or Mixbus records sound. Or any DAW for that matter. I don't attempt to chose a DAW by the flawed notion that one sounds better than another. Workflow, GUI, ease of use, those are my reasons and I have tried almost every DAW available and I still own 6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
A criticism of Reason is it's summing capability...how it sounds in relation to other methods; some, myself included, have obtained better results using other solutions. I think it's reasonable to say this this in a thread about Reason.
This thread is about Reason 8. My comments are about the flawed theory that one DAW sounds better than another.

I get the best results from PT11. But only because I use it the most and understand it the best.

And I am excited that I qualify for a free upgrade to 8 due to how late I purchased Reason 7, first time that has happened for me! I like tinkering with Reason.
Old 12th August 2014
  #47
Gear Head
 

Wow, a thread about Reason 8 announcement and already a dozen posts about DAW summing...

Back to topic : I was not so interested in jumping from 6.5 to 7 mainly because the lack of delay compensation almost made all the nice RE unusable for mixing. So i was really thinking and hoping that it was PH main priority to get this done.

Seems i was wrong. I'll pass on 8 too.

Still a happy user of reason for programming/writing.
Old 12th August 2014
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I think you should stop personalising this debate; it's a sure sign of a flaky argument when one has to resort to ad hominems and strawmen. The thread is about Reason 8 and I've made valid comments.
It wasn't ad hominem - it was clearly me saying, in a slightly personalized way, that I don't respect ANYONE who has a dogmatic and subjective approach to something that is objectively demonstrable. You clearly stated that there is something "inferior" about Reason's "summing engine", in spite of the repeatedly demonstrated fact that it is identical to all other digital "summing engines". It can't be ad hominem when I am directly addressing what you are saying!

You are right, this is about Reason 8, not about Reason's "summing engine" nor its supposed failings. This started with a statement that other DAWs do summing "better than Reason". That was based upon faulty logic, which I tried to refute by telling the thread how to achieve a similar result - something no one has commented upon yet...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
It's not a scientific test: it's a decision made by a musician...whether that is objective or subjective is irrelevant.
Of course your decision is subjective! No one is criticizing you or your choice to use another DAW - what is under criticism is your blatant disregard for the fact that DAW "summing engines" are all fundamentally the same. You can decide to use whatever you want, but claiming that one product is inferior in some way to another based upon that opinion/decision is just plain silly.

Hell, Arthur, I ACTUALLY KNOW AND [RARELY] USE MIXBUS. I agree with you that for certain kinds of results it is the tool for the job. I even agree with you that it sounds different than other DAWs when used as intended (ie, with the Saturation on and using the Buss system). What I know you are wrong about is that it has anything to do with the "summing system" as you so claimed. I honestly don't care how you work - do what is best for you. I'm quite sure you'd hate my personal workflow, given how roundabout it can be. How you work is subjective - why certain things do what they do is not. Which was the point.

Oh, and while we're on logical fallacies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I'm not alone in noticing advantages to summing outside of Reason.
Argument from authority (in this case, "not alone").

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
A criticism of Reason is it's summing capability...how it sounds in relation to other methods; some, myself included, have obtained better results using other solutions. I think it's reasonable to say this this in a thread about Reason.
Starting from false premises (that "how it sums" is what you're actually talking about), and an argument from authority ("some").

...

After that, I'm done here. I'm ignoring this stupid, never-ending farce of a "debate", because it does nothing but raise my blood pressure. I'm going to buy the stupid Reason 8 update because it does, in fact, offer me something that I value. I'm going to continue to use other DAWs as well, and I'll probably buy those updates, too...
Old 12th August 2014
  #49
Mixbus definitely sounds better to me.

Reason works great - just rather have everything I need in one programme.
Love to see improved mixbus capabilities in a future version.
Old 12th August 2014
  #50
Gear Addict
 

Guys - the null tests/arguments miss the point. Turning the saturation off in Mixbus DOES make it like other DAW's. But having it built-in along with the routing paradigm and EQs' built in all contribute to workflow and affects the final result. I've found when I mix something in Reason and then do the same thing in Mixbus and again in StudioOne, they all end up sounding different because of the tools I rely on in each. It may not technically have a better/different "summing engine", but sounds different because of what gets put into that engine is different, and the master effects are different.

A cheap Acer laptop may have the same CPU as a Thinkpad, but one gets more work done because they keyboard is better, the display is better, the port selection is right, and the docking station works.
Old 12th August 2014
  #51
Gear Nut
I'd pay $129 alone for a Drag-n-Drop feature for reason RIGHT NOW! Throw in a better looking GUI (imo) and another device to flip around and plug wires into and I'm sold. I've messed around with DAWs here and there and NOTHING in my experience is as stable as Reason. Reason is the ONLY software that has never CRASHED on me.
Old 13th August 2014
  #52
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
The yawners obviously have no clue how to use this amazing software...poor them.

the V8 update WILL improve the workflow, looking forward to it, I'm really enjoying the rack extensions of late also, some of the soft drum machines are just killer..!!!
Old 13th August 2014
  #53
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I have no idea why this thread has sunk that far this quick... BTW my enter key is broken so no paragraphs..... I dont know if Ive even made the point yet but they could not have focused on better things as far as Im concerned. Ill demo of course but Im hoping these are the changes that will actually make me wanna use it
Old 13th August 2014
  #54
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Alza's Avatar
 

You get a free bump up to 8 if you upgrade to 7 now. So if you already have 7, wait until 9 is released and upgrade then, or end up paying for both. The new GUI looks the goods and amp changes are welcomed, but I think I'm happy to stick with version 7 and save the coins for other toys right now. The major updates seem regular enough, fingers crossed....
Old 13th August 2014
  #55
Being a pro tools guy, I always gazed at reason and thought "what an awesome, modern, music-mixing daw." It always looks like something I'd love to tool around with, but I have demoed it in the past and always had trouble adapting, since I'm so used to PT workflow. Not that reason is at fault, I've tried plenty of other daws, and couldn't wrap my head around them (logic, reaper, etc.). Maybe I'll grab a demo when it's out. Always liked the auto cross fades.
Old 13th August 2014
  #56
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FrankieP's Avatar
I'm still on Reason 2.5 and I still can't get myself to upgrade!
Old 13th August 2014
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankieP View Post
I'm still on Reason 2.5 and I still can't get myself to upgrade!
Id upgrade just for the midi ability, but that's me.

I was afraid for awhile to jump from 3, but reason 5 changed all that.
Old 13th August 2014
  #58
I did some beta-testing for 7...what I really found useful was the ability to record a drum loop live, then edit within the loop/marker points and convert to a .rex file at the click of the mouse. The sampler features were cool too: just assign a channel to the sampler and record, then edit.
Old 13th August 2014
  #59
The interface for 7 is clunky and un-intuitive. Which is why 8 is a great idea on paper, but definitely not at the price tag of a full version.

Especially since I got 7 about two months ago and props aint grandfathering me. Ill wait for 9.
Old 13th August 2014
  #60
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Naugo's Avatar
 

This should be called reason 7.1
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