Reasonable? That is so subjective. Everyone is going to have their own definition of reasonable. I understand your frustration, we've all experienced. This is just one of the downsides of capitalism - we are all chasing money. I've worked for a big corporation, and let me tell you the pressure is always there to make profits every quarter, specially for companies that are public. Shareholders don't like hearing excuses. The good thing is we do have a say in this, and that's with our pocket book. It's great to complain and all, but unless you stop buying their product, then you're really not showing them how dissatisfied you are. Money is the only language people listen to.

What is that works for you with the subscription model? I'm not an Adobe user so I don't have any experience with subscription based ownership of software.

see my reply above :)

Clearly I was too quick to reply! Your reply above makes sense, it would be good if it leads Avid to be much quicker at addressing issues and providing updates.

its my view on it - but its not a 100% clear cut thing for me.... but its where i am on it at the moment.

I have been holding out on PT 11 for all the reasons others have delayed upgrading. With the new subscription scheme and now PT 12 it seems that I am due for an upgrade. I'm hoping I can skip 11 and just go to 12 regardless of the price and would be happy to if in return I receive a solid, relatively bug free work experience.

Avid is "giving" an upgrade to Pro Tools 11 today for $199. Why? It was supposed to end on 31th December 2014.

Yea, I bought PT HD 11 when it came out. I just started using it in the last couple weeks. Waiting for plugin developers (still waiting on 2 of them) and all the bugs it had at first. It seems pretty solid now in the short time I've been using it. PT 12 feature list will have to be impressive for me to upgrade.

Do we know how long this will last? Is there an announcement of this?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...165e35ecda3774

^ Marketing photo, can't post images yet

yup - does seem solid now. I've always followed the Abbey Road rule - update after other "beta" test.... if you know what i mean!!

Again, great for those who generate an income with the software.

Not so much for those who do not (which let's not kidd ourselves, is a large market).

They're clearly showing an emphasis on a lot of VI/MIDI...

So in that case is there any need to have access to continuous upgrades and so forth? Why not just settle on a version of PT that you like, and never pay an upgrade again (or at least, for as long as your hardware is supported)?

I've found Pro Tools 11 to be the first stable version on my setup. Win 7, Motu 2408 MK iii. PT 10 would crash while mixing a dense session and corrupt the session file, that's insane.
The only problems I'm still having is latency and auto tune 7.
If I bypass any UAD plugins during overdubs that minimizes latency. Auto tune 7 will have to wait till they get a stable auto tune 8.
Overall going to 64 bit is probably a %40 increase in plugin power so it's a no brainer.

I was under the impression that the $199.00 upgrade was good until the end of 2015. Maybe it was 2014. I will check the Avid website. Hmmmmm.

That's just the thing ... hardware, OS, and third party plug-in support. It's inevitable, and just a matter of time. Settling on a specific OS release doesn't last long these days. Just ask the snow leopard guys ...

It was supposed to be until Dec 31st 2014, and because of that, and the lack of information, I decided to fully drop Pro Tools and I'm working on selling all my associated hardware. Pretty much the last audio equipment I have left.

Now they have the deal again... but still no information?! I still have the hardware and could be lured back to PT... maybe?

At this point it almost doesn't even matter to me what the pricing is or what's added, Avid is not acting in a manner that makes it sensible to trust them with your business.

And that begs the question: why update your hardware, OS, and plugin list? You could settle on a working rig, and use that for hobbyist Pro Tools recording till the wheels fall off. Forgive my lack of empathy on this, but it seems to me that professional users have been subsidizing non-professionals for quite some time, not to mention, since Digidesign's move towards catering to the non-professional, the stability, functionality, and reliability of Pro Tools has suffered.

If Avid does away with the various version of Pro Tools and makes a single piece of software for all users based around a subscription model, I think I'd welcome that very, very much. If it means alienating some home studio folks, I feel for ya, but I gotta put the needs of my business ahead of the wants of some hobbyists. There are more than enough options out there for the non-professional market.

Of course, this is all a pipe dream, and I'm sure Avid would fold without the home studio folks, so I'm sure I'm SOL :lol:hjghfgg Oh well. A fellow can dream.

I thought the upgrade offer to PT 11 was up til Dec 2014.

And current users of PT 11 can "upgrade" to the subscription model by the end Dec 2015/.

But they know I need their program. All of my work is on Pro Tools going back a few years. Everyone I know uses Pro Tools. I am not concerned with these small amounts of money, what I am concerned about is compatibility and stability. I see people here, not saying you in particular or anyone in particular, spending countless thousands of dollars on this preamp or that compressor. Certainly allot of money is spend on microphones which, it seems to me, many people are willing to sell off at a loss if the microphone does not meet their expectations. In other words, this small amount of money doesn't seem like it will be relevant to even the lowliest Gear Slut. But wanting the program to work tip top is not too much to ask IMO.

Is it still possible to upgrade PTHD9 to PTHD11?

I can't wait to read page 50!

Alistair

No, no ... I hear you, totally makes sense. I agree with most of that. See, I'm on both sides of the fence. For me, my "home" rig does not generate income. I do overdubs and vocals at my house for records, from time to time. The rest of the time I'm working on my own stuff, again not generating income. However, the commercial studios I work for absolutely do generate income with the software. I need to be able to transition easily.

The whole reasoning for Avid to branch into the home user base in the first place (other than the market expansion) was to be the software of choice from inception/creation, to final product. Start your session on pro tools wherever you may be, then bring it in to a professional room, load your session and away you go. Makes complete sense. It also alleviates any technical problems, headaches, incompatibilities when aspiring musicians/engineers/producers, ect.. want to graduate up the pro market chain and give a studio money to continue the record making process (whether that be mixing, more tracking, ect..). It also builds familiarity with the system so, once again, Avid can graduate their customers into their more professional products that bring in more revenue. The system makes sense.

However, the market is very different in 2015. I'd be willing to bet that the "home studio" section of the market completely overshadows the professional market. And the reality of the home user is that their DAW's are probably run on a computer that is also used for 100 other tasks. Meaning, there are a lot of moving pieces and compatibility plays a big role. Plus, the home studio market is probably more likely to buy plug-ins, which plays more into compatibility than the pro market. At the end of the day, just because someone's rig isn't specifically generating income, doesn't mean it's not a part of something that is. The home studio market is full of those "grey" areas. In the past, PT has at least enabled both sides of the market to talk to each-other on the same playing field. Then again, if the home user is on a subscription and doesn't touch their rig in 5 weeks, it's lost on them.

Anyways, long winded answer, but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.

I'd like to see the ability of a native system to "see" more than the first 32 i/o connected to the computer, before I upgrade. Lock the ability to record 32 simultaneously and I'm ok with that, but this little wrinkle severely limits flexibility and was a big headache for me especially after adding an Orion 32. Luckily the Orion has some useful routing options or I'd have been in a bigger pickle.

They are marketing their tech support like it's something to upgrade for. I don't know about the rest of you, but I began ignoring Avid as a viable resource for support when they started asking you to purchase a ticket in order to receive support. At least then I could choose to pay for it if and when I needed it. Now I'm supposed to pay for it whether I need to use it or not?

This subscription shift is no small deal. I'm going to have to get a lot more than updates and tech support if you want me to pay monthly in perpetuity. You still get the option to purchase a version outright don't you?

Btw, for people that are not aware, Avid already revealed a lot of the "cloud" features they were working on at least year's NAB:



As you can see, track freeze will be needed for the whole cloud/sharing workflow so you can expect that feature. Also, for those familiar with other DAWs, every single one of these new features has existed in Nuendo for a long time. In some cases, literally a decade. But great that Avid are slowly catching up!

Alistair

My main reason for shying away from Protools, right there.
No longer close to "cutting edge", for a lonnnnng time
No where near "stable" either, also for many years

That pic shows nothing but a MacBook so maybe a thunderbolt interface.

I see it as exactly the opposite: The hobbyists are sponsoring the professionals and not just with Pro Tools. With most of the audio industry. I would go even further and say that many audio manufacturers and developers would be long gone if it weren't for the hobbyists spending money on these products.

Also, if anything, the hobbyists are an army of beta testers. At least if you do the wise thing and wait a bit to upgrade your professional rig until the dust settles after a new release.

Again I see it exactly the other way round. If Avid want to survive, they need to cut their strong arm tactics of attempting to bully people into buying their hardware to get access to the full feature set. They need to sell PT HD (as a subscription or not) to anyone that wants to buy it. If they want people to buy their hardware like the HD|Native card, they need to make it so incredibly good (and DAW agnostic) that no one can resist. THAT is how you survive in the 21st century.

Well there you go. You know Avid can't survive without the hobbyists.

Just one more thing to be clear: I don't want Avid to dumb things down for the hobbyist market. On the contrary! I want them to keep developing PT to the highest possible standard and with the attention to detail when it comes to implementation that they are good at. Cubase Pro 8 got a lot of positive response _because_ they focused on more serious pro features. (VCAs, virgin automation territories, better multi-monitor support, better audio engine efficiency etc).

I think a mistake many of these companies make is they look at feature requests from hobbyists and think that that is what hobbyists want and need. The problem is that these hobbyists just aren't familiar with more pro products so although not stupid, they just don't know what is possible. It is literally a case of the blind leading the blind. When the developers give these hobbyists some of the cool pro features they suddenly realise how useful and practical these features can be.

Avid need to open up more to the hobbyist market from a _commercial_ perspective. Don't make it so hard for people to purchase the product and make sure your products are better than anything else on the market.

Alistair

Great post Alistair. I've quoted just the snippet above because it sums it up very well.