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Antelope Announces Zen Studio (complete interface solution) now shipping Audio Interfaces
Old 17th March 2014
  #121
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clybourne View Post
2ms extra that you derive from Thunderbolt aren't going to add up to enough to matter. Because, if you track through plugins in the DAW, you'll be adding latency anyway. There's no way to get around that, no matter the protocol.

What we did instead was focus on an extremely fast chip for our monitor fx and mixers. This is where you need near-zero latency.

We also chose the format that at the moment is compatible with nearly all computers out there.

Thanks,
Marcel
I do not agree that anything adding 2ms to to reporting is chump change.
For people relying on fast turnaround, 2ms add on to other latent procedures, playing expensive soft synths and amp sims in Real Time will notice.

I'm certainly not trying to pick word with you Sir, but I do categorically disagree with any assurance that 2ms here and there, is insignificant. This aspect of the interface market is the elephant in the room. I doubt marketing campaigns will ever specify that a given product might not work for specific types of users, and the engineering and science is complicated to follow for most. End users that is. That's not to say your statement regarding added 2ms won't affect masses of other types of users.
For songwriters and composers, the time needed to understand all the subtle differences between technology that we rely on, is cumbersome , or can be at times.

I do get what you mean, but it excludes a portion of your potential customer base .
Just saying mate. :-)
Kind regards
Old 17th March 2014
  #122
Lives for gear
Quote:
What we did instead was focus on an extremely fast chip for our monitor fx and mixers. This is where you need near-zero latency.

We also chose the format that at the moment is compatible with nearly all computers out there.
I have to agree with Marcel here - TB/USB 3 still has a lot of chipset incompatibility issues and for a new product like the Zen Studio that could spell support disaster. Just look at the issues UA are having with Thunderbolt with the Apollo line.

I'd have to say that right now any gains to using / developing Thunderbolt / USB3 native solutions are outweighed by the cons - all IMO.

Quote:
I do not agree that anything adding 2ms to to reporting is chump change.
For people relying on fast turnaround, 2ms add on to other latent procedures, playing expensive soft synths and amp sims in Real Time will notice.
I'd also have to agree with Marcel and think they have got their latency priority correct by putting their effort in making the 'zero latency' mixer path as fast as possible, and not being as concerned with the path through the DAW, as I would suspect that more people will run their system with higher buffers for less stress and utilise the interface based monitoring (it's why RME get such praise for TotalMix).

Sure, people playing vSTi and soft synths in realtime might quibble with this, but I'd suspect that is a very small niche in the target audience.

My 2c
Old 17th March 2014
  #123
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Let me start by saying I have an Antelope OCX clocking and SSL Alpha Link and HD Madi Interface and its just plain awesome. I think antelope is doing some cool things and are making good stuff.

That being said I was an early buyer of the Orion. Horrible experience. USB was competely unusable and MADI was barley. But only at 44.1/48. Forget 96k. I had work approaching and needed to get up and running so I returned it an went the SSL alpha link into an HD madi interface. The SSL did NOT sound as good as the Orion so I added the OCX clock and it made a nice difference and sounded more like the Orion.

I guess im playing devils advocate but the antelope USB 2.0 connection was terrible. I hope that they have fixed this but understand the orion release was pretty bad. Maybe thats just what I get for adopting brand new unproven gear right off the bat. I hope things go smoother for this box. It looks pretty cool
Old 17th March 2014
  #124
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedOne View Post
Question of Taste, I really like the way it looks but who cares! I cant wait to hear that thing!
+1
Old 17th March 2014
  #125
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gollumsluvslave View Post
I have to agree with Marcel here - TB/USB 3 still has a lot of chipset incompatibility issues and for a new product like the Zen Studio that could spell support disaster. Just look at the issues UA are having with Thunderbolt with the Apollo line.

I'd have to say that right now any gains to using / developing Thunderbolt / USB3 native solutions are outweighed by the cons - all IMO.



I'd also have to agree with Marcel and think they have got their latency priority correct by putting their effort in making the 'zero latency' mixer path as fast as possible, and not being as concerned with the path through the DAW, as I would suspect that more people will run their system with higher buffers for less stress and utilise the interface based monitoring (it's why RME get such praise for TotalMix).

Sure, people playing vSTi and soft synths in realtime might quibble with this, but I'd suspect that is a very small niche in the target audience.

My 2c
:-)

Small niche, the writers, composers and demo producers. Perhaps.
I would disagree wholeheartedly. Which is fine.
The problems IMO, is the lack of clarity at figuring out which unit will live up to the marketing roll out. Seriously , these brands are all very respected and with good cause. There are still people out here that actually play instruments and compose at speed. Lots more give it a go as well, and I think this demographic of potential buyer shores up alot of sales as well. What happens to art after it's created by sonic authors and masters of the pass filters is and altogether different set of needs , I respect that profoundly.
RME demonstrated a very open door policy with end users to arrive at the Totalmix of the now. I would hope others could be as transparent about actual application capabilities upfront, and develop as you'd expect; instead of "bang! Pay up" and get handed a spendy unit now implementing post sales RnD and process possibly costing not only time, but opportunity.
I'm sceptical of most of these unit claims. Any zero latency claims are usually only possible in unrealistic buffer / sample settings. But, whatever works for someone is best. Just my 2c. :-)
Be well
Old 17th March 2014
  #126
In the early going, our drivers weren't dialed in yet, but since last summer, they've been fantastic.

I also agree that once you have a large session, you increase buffers and it become s more critical that you continue to be able to track at near zero latency. This indeed has been our primary focus (monitoring and stability).

Btw, the fastest part of our circuit is playback latency. It's not been an issue what soever for our many film and tv composers using Orion. You can get it down to 1-2ms range.

Thanks for all the comments and thoughts. We appreciate them all. The positive reinforce our thinking and reputation. The critical ones challenge us to respond both here and in our lab. I really enjoy this interaction, fwiw.

Best,
Marcel
Old 17th March 2014
  #127
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clybourne View Post
In the early going, our drivers weren't dialed in yet, but since last summer, they've been fantastic.

I also agree that once you have a large session, you increase buffers and it become s more critical that you continue to be able to track at near zero latency. This indeed has been our primary focus (monitoring and stability).

Btw, the fastest part of our circuit is playback latency. It's not been an issue what soever for our many film and tv composers using Orion. You can get it down to 1-2ms range.

Thanks for all the comments and thoughts. We appreciate them all. The positive reinforce our thinking and reputation. The critical ones challenge us to respond both here and in our lab. I really enjoy this interaction, fwiw.

Best,
Marcel
Well said mate. I'm glad that you can take on board criticality and recognise the benefit of expanding understanding on portions of the complex nature of an interface.
I appreciate playback at zero latency, but that's really just delivering what folks would expect, not be amazed by mate.
Presonus build gear with zero latency playback. In certain circumstances only mind you , but you get my point.
Mentioning playback latency and being loud about zero latency, distracts from the more critical product performance facts of a myriad of different type end users rely upon in picking the purchase.
It's and honour, and credit to a company's efforts to have well established studios brag on using their kit to make smash hit records. However, it is a Responsibility and a duty to the legions of end users negotiating their way through to the top tier of pro audio gear needs, that have invested in products based largely on the rapport of renowned pro end users.
I believe this 2nd group of folk is the larger of the two.
A great existence, is a great responsibility. It's just how it goes.
Old 18th March 2014
  #128
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MaestroAL's Avatar
Hey, HarborFreight sells a metal hacksaw for under 5 bucks. That, or a bi-metal blade on a sawzall will get you that unseemly handle lopped off in under 3 minutes.

Then tech-screw a couple short pieces of angle-iron to the sides as needed, and there's your rack ears - all easily under 20$.

Plus the priceless sentiments you get in the process of making it "yours"
Old 18th March 2014
  #129
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MaestroAL's Avatar
But seriously, I've been considering something more high end.
Currently, I still have rme Digiface with one ADI8ds coming in optically. And for what I've had to do so far, it's been beyond great. RME are just talented with code like no others.

Yet I'm starting to hear some room for more "musicality" in my conversion (could be that my units just need a plain ol' recap - they must be pushing 10+ yrs).

But besides that I also want a solution with more channels, to leave more (growing) outboard permanently patched in, and reduce patching. The internal routing capabilities of some of these new products seem to tick that box.
I've been eying the Orion for about a year. Before Orion I almost bought a UFX - now that's one perfectly portable rig, but I hardly ever do field takes, and when I do, i don't mind dragging big junk...

So far Orion still seems like what I want, but now this zen has me interested with its dsp. The effects would be extremely handy during writing/composing even if you don't use them in mix. Some flattering reverb for a vocalist can do wonders to bring their game on. In this aspect the zen will have the orion beat, no? But not in Channel count/connectivity

Also, I do play a lot of heavy vst (EWQuantumLeap) and the like. Sometimes amp sims. I need imperceptible latency. I like to work at 96k

So now I have to decide between what I'm leaning towards (in order of strongest preference): Orion, ZS, or UFX. If i can't make up my mind towards one of those, then I'll just shoot myself in the navel and go a totally different route with a Burl Mothership and RME HDSPe MADI ... that would definitely sound more "musical". ... especially when i'll be living under a bridge..
Old 18th March 2014
  #130
New Zen Studio promotion video

Old 18th March 2014
  #131
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Overdrive's Avatar
 

Yes

Quote:
I guess im playing devils advocate
You sure are. My experience with both Antelope products I have has been fantastic from the go. Bought in the Orion32 and Trinity 3 months ago and this setup is rock solid right out of the box. Driving PT10/11 on PC... not a common arrangement around these parts.
It seems they got their act together a long ago and these days I see very little competition to the Orion based on sound quality, ease of use, system stability and price to track count ratio. Do you?
Old 18th March 2014
  #132
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Gebo's Avatar
 

Am I to assume that song in the video was recorded 100% with the Zen? Was the mix done using the built in DSP effects? It sounds great, so here's hoping that is the case...
Old 18th March 2014
  #133
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroAL View Post
But seriously, I've been considering something more high end.
Currently, I still have rme Digiface with one ADI8ds coming in optically. And for what I've had to do so far, it's been beyond great. RME are just talented with code like no others.

Yet I'm starting to hear some room for more "musicality" in my conversion (could be that my units just need a plain ol' recap - they must be pushing 10+ yrs).

But besides that I also want a solution with more channels, to leave more (growing) outboard permanently patched in, and reduce patching. The internal routing capabilities of some of these new products seem to tick that box.
I've been eying the Orion for about a year. Before Orion I almost bought a UFX - now that's one perfectly portable rig, but I hardly ever do field takes, and when I do, i don't mind dragging big junk...

So far Orion still seems like what I want, but now this zen has me interested with its dsp. The effects would be extremely handy during writing/composing even if you don't use them in mix. Some flattering reverb for a vocalist can do wonders to bring their game on. In this aspect the zen will have the orion beat, no? But not in Channel count/connectivity

Also, I do play a lot of heavy vst (EWQuantumLeap) and the like. Sometimes amp sims. I need imperceptible latency. I like to work at 96k

So now I have to decide between what I'm leaning towards (in order of strongest preference): Orion, ZS, or UFX. If i can't make up my mind towards one of those, then I'll just shoot myself in the navel and go a totally different route with a Burl Mothership and RME HDSPe MADI ... that would definitely sound more "musical". ... especially when i'll be living under a bridge..
Mate,
Ewql in real time?
The madi set up might be the only thing that tops the UFX for this application.

Personally, my dream box WOULD BE,
PRISMSOUND TITAN with RME drivers and featuring a UAD2 solo dsp built in/ expansion slot.


Laugh if you must. I know it would be a smash hit product.
(I'll forward my royalty collection information thanks):-)

Last edited by GeneHall; 18th March 2014 at 09:29 PM.. Reason: grammar
Old 18th March 2014
  #134
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Cody's Avatar
 

I did it. Studio Economik in Montreal has one of these cuties on order for me. They said I'm the first Canadian to do so
Can't wait! After hearing the drum sound on the YouTube video I was sold. I have an ISA828 I'll put through the DSUB as well. This is going to be a good year!
Old 19th March 2014
  #135
Any chance some of these software improvements can be brought over to the Orion? I live my Orion 32, think it sounds great and is a great center piece to my studio, but I'd love if it had the routing flexibility this product does. Any goodies coming in future updates for Orion owners?
Old 19th March 2014
  #136
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MaestroAL's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneHall View Post
Mate,
Ewql in real time?
The madi set up might be the only thing that tops the UFX for this application.
...
Yeah bro, perhaps its unconventional, I don't know. But different sounds inspire in me totally different melodies and rhythms. So I like to write with awesome instruments from scratch. Now, I do utilize their "lite" patches for quicker loads and scratch ideas. But even those could tax many rigs.

This is why a few years back I splurged and built a monster pc which to this day will chew through a concrete wall in nanoseconds. All my samples stream from SSD's, six-core dual threading nehalem, 24g ram, blah blah. So far so good. The digiface is a PCI solution, and as old as that is, its still stupid fast. The only thing in terms of ASSURED latency improvement would be one of rme's PCI-e cards.

i considered getting their RAYDAT which is PCIe, and getting either another adi8ds (possibly modded by Jim Williams) or just a better converter altogether, that does optical i/o. Problem is, the high channel-count offerings only provide part of the channels via optical, and those get slashed in half with 96k. That's before i saw Orion.

Then I considered rme madi pcie - and a madi equipped converter - like Orion, or in my dreams a Mothership. But cost becomes something to scale, but it's not the ultimate deterrent. I'm still not sure if and what the madi protocol may compromise (clock quality or latency). Hopefully nothing. Is it just as fast as optical?
Don't know if Orion's (and Zen's) usb would be adequate, though some folks seem to report stable <2ms. Maybe my uses would be too intensive...?
Old 19th March 2014
  #137
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroAL View Post
Yeah bro, perhaps its unconventional, I don't know. But different sounds inspire in me totally different melodies and rhythms. So I like to write with awesome instruments from scratch. Now, I do utilize their "lite" patches for quicker loads and scratch ideas. But even those could tax many rigs.

This is why a few years back I splurged and built a monster pc which to this day will chew through a concrete wall in nanoseconds. All my samples stream from SSD's, six-core dual threading nehalem, 24g ram, blah blah. So far so good. The digiface is a PCI solution, and as old as that is, its still stupid fast. The only thing in terms of ASSURED latency improvement would be one of rme's PCI-e cards.

i considered getting their RAYDAT which is PCIe, and getting either another adi8ds (possibly modded by Jim Williams) or just a better converter altogether, that does optical i/o. Problem is, the high channel-count offerings only provide part of the channels via optical, and those get slashed in half with 96k. That's before i saw Orion.

Then I considered rme madi pcie - and a madi equipped converter - like Orion, or in my dreams a Mothership. But cost becomes something to scale, but it's not the ultimate deterrent. I'm still not sure if and what the madi protocol may compromise (clock quality or latency). Hopefully nothing. Is it just as fast as optical?
Don't know if Orion's (and Zen's) usb would be adequate, though some folks seem to report stable <2ms. Maybe my uses would be too intensive...?
Yeah I do understand, we work in real time as well.
Tried lots of really nice interfaces, but only the UFX delivers the uninterrupted performance it seems to take.
So my statement was more addressing the fact that, as a real time composer, hasn't this 1 need always lead back to the UFX?...I exhausted every known box I believed to be superior to the UFX (converters), the sacrifice necessary to work with high end conversion, composing in real time, just isn't worth it.
Well, it's being offered up in glossy notions, but where other than the UFX is this actually being delivered?
Why is this so difficult to integrate into top shelf converter boxes?

Last edited by GeneHall; 19th March 2014 at 03:49 AM.. Reason: gremlins
Old 19th March 2014
  #138
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edit --- Antelope are really one of the better at this so the following is not all that fair to them ---
-------- I typed this all a little too early in the morning --- but I leave it so as not to let the response seem out of place :-).....

---------------
I would love it if boxes could come out with explicit well written specs for Latency performance - not just marketing speak.

Like - what is Playback Latency?

Like how about Latency when using onboard DSP mixer with and without EFX.
RTL (can we please standardize this as analog to analog) - just state the number - sample rate and buffer. The exact DAW has very little impact.

THese are real data points and some people want/have to know what to expect before dropping multiple thousands of dollars on the centerpiece of their recording environment. I totally understand that my concerns and the poster above are a not the majority :-)
Old 19th March 2014
  #139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProPower View Post
I would love it if boxes could come out with explicit well written specs for Latency performance - not just marketing speak.

Like - what is Playback Latency?

Like how about Latency when using onboard DSP mixer with and without EFX. Near zero :-)... 1 is closer to zero than 50. Just state the number - and sample rate.

RTL (can we please standardize this as analog to analog) - just state the number - sample rate and buffer. The exact DAW has very little impact.

THese are real data points and some people want/have to know what to expect before dropping multiple thousands of dollars on the centerpiece of their recording environment. I totally understand that my concerns and the poster above are a not the majority :-)
"Playback Latency" isn't marketing speak at all. Roundtrip latency is the time it takes audio to go out and back into the daw (via computer bus and external converters). The playback latency part is where the audio comes out. If the roundtrip is 4ms, but the playback part is 1.5 and the record part is 2.5, then this is better for using soft synths than if both numbers were 2ms. The recording doesn't matter, because the daw is being monitored anyway, so again the critical part is that you can monitor in real-time or as close to it as possible (and also that reporting times to the daw be accurate).

Which brings me to the latency of the monitoring of Zen. We are using sample-based dsp, instead of sending audio to a buffer (the usual method). This allows for extremely fast monitoring (even when using effects) with measurement of a few samples, instead of mili-seconds. We will release info when the final units are ready to ship and we take those measurements.

Hope this helps,
Marcel
Old 19th March 2014
  #140
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I know I should never type too early in the morning -

First - 1000 apologies in that Antelope are actually one of the better ones in actually publishing latency performance (as on your Orion page). Breaking out the A/D and D/A times as well as performance at a sample rate and buffer. This is great stuff and i should really edit my above post to not clamor for what you already have (left over stuff from a different discussion thread - again apologies).

Thanks for clearing up playback delay. Here is where measured data is the only way since Driver time (USB in particular) is a major player.

I sure understand how much easier foldback is to solve with dedicated dsp in the interface. Coming from a PT HD background I still haven't crossed over to using another layer of software for monitoring but i clearly see the sense in it.

I look forward to the complete specs on the new Zen once it is ready for release :-)
Old 19th March 2014
  #141
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clybourne View Post
"Playback Latency" isn't marketing speak at all. Roundtrip latency is the time it takes audio to go out and back into the daw (via computer bus and external converters). The playback latency part is where the audio comes out. If the roundtrip is 4ms, but the playback part is 1.5 and the record part is 2.5, then this is better for using soft synths than if both numbers were 2ms. The recording doesn't matter, because the daw is being monitored anyway, so again the critical part is that you can monitor in real-time or as close to it as possible (and also that reporting times to the daw be accurate).

Which brings me to the latency of the monitoring of Zen. We are using sample-based dsp, instead of sending audio to a buffer (the usual method). This allows for extremely fast monitoring (even when using effects) with measurement of a few samples, instead of mili-seconds. We will release info when the final units are ready to ship and we take those measurements.

Hope this helps,
Marcel
That's awesome Marcel.
What about having these boxes sent to a trusted 3rd party to run it through it's paces and in varying types of systems capable of matching the performance needs.
Sound on sound refers to guys like Vin Curigliano who created DAWbench , which is a site listing the actual performances of interfaces under varying types of loads.

The guy impressed me alot, had him build my audio computer and test interfaces that would fit my work needs. I needed to make my computer afforded my interface every opportunity to perform to it's greatest potential

Marcel, some of my rhetoric.may have seemed directed at you or Antelope personally, of course I did not mean to single you guys out. The whole interface topic should be exciting and expanding. It's a complete drain trying to understand it all and keep from getting sucked into a marketing generated fervor over a unit, and make clear concise choices when buying these type of goods.

Some companies build great clocks, some build great converters, few build great drivers or integrative software, ALL ARE building interfaces it seems.
If someone is in fact building a solid reliable product, than it stands to reason that the real world performance facts would only help lead to more sales.
I agree with early riser Propower, Antelope are really good about how they deliver the goods.
I feel most though, design a box, talk some smack, flog a few thousand units and get right onto the Post Sale Research and Development of said product.

This type of almost collusive business model has added grief/frustration to an increasingly difficult to understand product purchase.

Thank you Marcel, for having the stones to offer up the real important details regarding your product.

That willingness to expand understanding is enough incentive for me to keep close eyes on antelope, and wait for that product that suits my needs.
Cheers man
Old 20th March 2014
  #142
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laughton's Avatar
 

Please tell me there will be a rack shelf or rack ears offered. Other than the lack of racking options this is PERFECT for me. Will pre-order if some form of racking is available.
Old 20th March 2014
  #143
Don't think this was made to be racked.
Old 20th March 2014
  #144
The question is this, how good can the preamps really be. Consider that the unit does not cost all that much more than a top of the line two channel preamp. Here you have allegedly high level conversion and 12 preamps for roughly $2,500.00.

Is this therefore just a larger format MBox?
Old 20th March 2014
  #145
What I am getting at is there had to be some give somewhere to reach this price point. It would seem that the preamps is the logical place to look/listen. Build quality would be the next place to look.
Old 20th March 2014
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
What I am getting at is there had to be some give somewhere to reach this price point. It would seem that the preamps is the logical place to look/listen. Build quality would be the next place to look.
Or maybe other manufacturers have been charging too much? SPL and Audient have certainly put the cat among the pigeons recently. Tascam too have introduced a new box, that on paper looks stellar.
Old 20th March 2014
  #147
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digital 1010's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Man View Post
Or maybe other manufacturers have been charging too much? SPL and Audient have certainly put the cat among the pigeons recently. Tascam too have introduced a new box, that on paper looks stellar.
Agree

Warm audio - WA76 vs other well known 1176 types is a good example.

Ben
Old 20th March 2014
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digital 1010 View Post
Agree

Warm audio - WA76 vs other well known 1176 types is a good example.

Ben
Disagree -
The above are well known fully developed designs that have been cost reduced and repackaged.

The Zen (for instance) is a work of product development by a real R&D department making as good a product as they can for a given price point. Thinking these "cost" too much is a complete non-understanding of product development. Tascam - a huge company in comparison - draws on decades of similar designs and cost optimizations to bring a product to the marketplace at significant reduced cost to "small shop" guys...
Old 20th March 2014
  #149
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I know it wasn't meant to be racked. But lots of half rack or desktop boxes have a rack shelf option or rack ears. Think API lunchbox, rnd portico, little labs, lynx Hilo. I'm just hoping for a similar option here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
Don't think this was made to be racked.
Old 20th March 2014
  #150
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digital 1010's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProPower View Post
Disagree -
The above are well known fully developed designs that have been cost reduced and repackaged.

The Zen (for instance) is a work of product development by a real R&D department making as good a product as they can for a given price point. Thinking these "cost" too much is a complete non-understanding of product development. Tascam - a huge company in comparison - draws on decades of similar designs and cost optimizations to bring a product to the marketplace at significant reduced cost to "small shop" guys...
Point taken but i didn't mean the Antelope costs too much. I was agreeing with the other post that I think some other companies products are too much especially when technology has moved forward a lot. I think the Zen looks to be well priced for what it offers.

I think there are products out there that are still priced too high due to the name of the brand more than anything else. Some smaller companies are proving quality products can be put out cheaper. Although they don't have the massive overheads bigger companies do so can see some flip sides to it.


Ben
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