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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 12th April 2014
  #2911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Pretty sad, if you really believe that.
Well, I'm not who you're addressing and I wouldn't have said what he said the way he said it.

And I love much of Neil Young's early work. I was a big fan, even in the 'Springfield days.

But much of what Neil has been saying and doing with regard to this business venture should be profoundly embarrassing to him, seems to me. But I don't think he has the perspective to understand how he looks.

It has nothing to do with his music and won't effect how I view him as an artist. If his 1980 foray into the US political arena and rather shocking endorsement of Reagan [here was the guy who wrote "Four Dead in Ohio" only a few years later endorsing the politician intent on funding of death squads in Central America!] couldn't kill my love of Neil, I'm thinking just about nothing could. But just as a fan, I'm embarrassed for him.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2912
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bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
If his 1980 foray into the US political arena and rather shocking endorsement of Reagan [here was the guy who wrote "Four Dead in Ohio" signing on to the funding of death squads in Central America!] couldn't kill my love of Neil, probably nothing will.
For me the crucible was his 1982 album Trans. If my love for Neil can survive that album, then it can survive anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhS5W...E074E04F7AAA42
Old 12th April 2014
  #2913
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Well, I'm not who you're addressing and I wouldn't have said what he said the way he said it.

And I love much of Neil Young's early work. I was a big fan, even in the 'Springfield days.

But much of what Neil has been saying and doing with regard to this business venture should be profoundly embarrassing to him, seems to me. But I don't think he has the perspective to understand how he looks.

It has nothing to do with his music and won't effect how I view him as an artist. If his 1980 foray into the US political arena and rather shocking endorsement of Reagan [here was the guy who wrote "Four Dead in Ohio" endorsing the guy intent on funding of death squads in Central America -- which resulted in about a million deaths!] couldn't kill my love of Neil, I'm think just about nothing will. But just as a fan, I'm embarrassed for him.
I expect he doesn't give a stuff 'what it looks like' and is just doing what he always did, namely following his gut in the pursuit of something that seems worthwhile to him. Not always hitting bullseye, as your Reagan story points out. In complete disregard of whether you might think it embarrassing. I think what he's focused on here is the result.

But that wasn't what the guy you answered for was saying anyway. He went far further into the realm of aggressive cynicism.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2914
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
I'm not an expert on converter technology, and I don't believe chrisj is either. But for balance I want to point out that almost everything chrisj says in this post seems controversial to me.
If you are not an expert and have no grounds for knowing what I'm talking about, how do your feelings bring any sort of 'balance'?
Old 12th April 2014
  #2915
Quote:
[...] and this is why the ABX was too 'easy' at high volumes when it was 'supposed' to be impossible.
For gosh sake, I thought we had already thoroughly hashed out this 'supposition' that some folks seem to keep trying to put in other folks' mouth about how it's supposedly 'impossible' to differentiate CD quality from 24/96.

While I can't speak for all the 'science-fans' here I think the most persistent among us have pretty well stipulated that OF COURSE you may very well be able to differentiate them when listening at much higher than normal levels (chrisj himself described his testing experience as 'grueling' and 'painful' -- though I believe he feels the ABX testing procedure itself is part of the grueling/painful problem) and focusing on specific details like fadeouts and reverb and other tails. YES, it IS possible to differentiate. STIPULATED.

Let us move on. Please.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2916
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bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
If you are not an expert and have no grounds for knowing what I'm talking about, how do your feelings bring any sort of 'balance'?
When did I say I have no grounds for knowing what I'm talking about? I said I'm not a converter expert; neither are you from what I can tell. I know enough to recognize controversial statements. No insult to you, just trying to provide balance.

Did you look up the frequency response of a moving avg filter?
Old 12th April 2014
  #2917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I expect he doesn't give a stuff 'what it looks like' and is just doing what he always did, namely following his gut in the pursuit of something that seems worthwhile to him. Not always hitting bullseye, as your Reagan story points out. In complete disregard of whether you might think it embarrassing. I think what he's focused on here is the result.

But that wasn't what the guy you answered for was saying anyway. He went far further into the realm of aggressive cynicism.
Well, of course, my take on his motivations also gives him the benefit of the doubt. I mean, I like Neil.

But it doesn't undercut the other stuff much.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
For me the crucible was his 1982 album Trans. If my love for Neil can survive that album, then it can survive anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhS5W...E074E04F7AAA42
heh

That was even worse than his rather dreadful 'punk' album. As both a member of the LA punk/new music scene AND a bit NY fan, I really tried to like it. I could not. By a long stretch.

It's that sort of thing and some of the soft rock stuff that always seems to drive me back to favorites like all the Neil + Crazy Horse albums. Funny thing, though, I recently fell back in love with the eponymous Crazy Horse album and, truth be told, it is a very strong album, even sans Neil. But throw in Zuma and On The Beach, the harrowing Tonight's the Night... some very interesting, often strangely moving work, one of the great 'back up' bands. And Neil's role in (most) of it makes it easy to skip over stuff like Rust Never Sleeps and the rest.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2919
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3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I strongly disagree.
It means nothing to the main consumer demographic. Tech nerds and musicians might care about the ultimate sound quality, but then we don't need to attract that demographic back to buying music. We need to attract back the average 16 to 40 year olds.
Not only does Pono do nothing in that regard, it makes us look stupid.
We need to get young people buying new music again, in a way that nurtures and supports new music. The way to health in our industry is innovation and new blood. To propose charging premium prices for albums recorded 20 to 40 years ago is going to change anything - is actually a disaster and could make you angry if you thought anyone was listening. But thankfully I think the vast majority of potential music customers neither know or care about Pono.
Any demographic I was talking about had nothing to do with music sales. Look, this is not a player that some major label is developing to sell new music.

From reading the basic bio of the company, some "tech nerds" and "musicians" came together and developed a consumer product that plays music. It's a totally different industry. I cannot see it having any negative effect on the music industry but I see no reason to even consider if it should or should not have a positive impact to the music industry, much less will it or not.

I am almost to the point where I am banging my head against the wall. I agree that the music industry needs to make changes but this product has nothing to do with that. Anyone involved in the music industry is acting in a different capacity, it's endorsement.


I heard nobody say anything like this when Beats by Dre came out. In may ways, this type of consumer product is as much a fashion statement, or a personal statement of who someone is, a declaration of their tastes, than anything else. To speculate on it's effect on the music industry is unimportant The only thing to maybe try to gain insight here is what the electronic device consumer is looking for or if there is a changing taste among consumers of these devices.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2920
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
When did I say I have no grounds for knowing what I'm talking about? I said I'm not a converter expert; neither are you from what I can tell. I know enough to recognize controversial statements. No insult to you, just trying to provide balance.

Did you look up the frequency response of a moving avg filter?
I _ship_ moving average filters in my current line of plugins.

I'm sorry, but none of what I said was controversial or speculative at all. If I'd said things like 'DACs without reconstruction filters are much more natural sounding' that'd be another story, but they're really not, they're just broken designs trading off one problem for another. If you're not familiar with overshoot and Gibb effect, I suggest you learn more as these things aren't controversial either, nor is the deleterious effect of pre-ringing up around Nyquist and the development of things like apodizing filters ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apodization ) to get rid of that problem.

The world didn't begin and end with the first sampler designs. It might be good to take the trouble to become MORE of a converter expert. I have to know about this stuff because I develop software to deal with the limits of digital audio. Bruno Putzeys sent me email once expressing approval of my 'Contingent Dither' design that ended up becoming 'Spatialize' in the Ditherbox plugin. Do you know who Bruno Putzeys is? I just feel you are not qualified enough to tell people not to listen to me. I am not telling people not to listen to you, but I sure hope they can put it in context.

One slip: if you upsample, yes you do get ripple depending on how you go about it, ripple is inherent in the bandwidth reduction of signals. You even see it in analog gear, at much higher frequencies typically. It's a common test to run generated squarewaves into pricey analog gear and examine the result, and I shouldn't have suggested upsampling gets around ripple. There are ways you could, but it runs into the same problem as the DACs without reconstruction filters: the process that reconstructs the wave and gives ripple is the same process that gives you phase information on signals up that high. Without that, you're losing a lot of information.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2921
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Ephi82's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Hipsters and the equivalent audiophiles might buy it. Remember that is a very small percentage of music consumers. The majority of music is still bought/streamed by younger people and they don't own turntables and don't really care much about audio quality.

My daughter loves music and she can hear the difference... but most often she listens from her computer speakers even though I bought her a decent external dock that she can plug into. I sometimes have to walk into her room and plug the speakers in because I can't stand it a couple rooms away. THAT is what you are up against if you think people will buy it. Sure, some will (obviously from kickstarter). But the masses?
I have my fingers crossed and hope that the average music consumer, who has been listening to mp3 of various quality, through $10.00 ear buds, of super compressed for volume masters, will hear a well mastered recording at 96/24, through a PONO (or other hi end player), with good ear buds or phones and say "wow" and want it. (Providing it's not exorbitantly expensive)

Heck, these kids demand new iPhones cause the screen got 5mm bigger!

As far as your daughter is concerned, she's not plugging her speakers in because she has to immediately respond to something on Facebook!

I'm a home recordist, and I assume many on this thread are pros. I am surprised by the cynicism and lack of support of something that just may increase interest in well made recordings (back in the old days of the 70's you really noticed how certain producers and engineers delivered great sonics)

I don't think is an argument about who can hear the difference between MP3 and 96/24. It's an argument for better recordings AND better hardware to hear them close to what they sounded like at the mix or master

Call me naive!
Old 12th April 2014
  #2922
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O.F.F.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by S21 View Post
iTunes won't go to a higher resolution unless forced by a product that as made serious inroads. That product would need to be shipping millions of units each quarter to scare Apple.

Look, providing hires content would be validating a competitor's position. Hires content would not be hard to provide from iTunes. This is just a move on the chessboard that Apple don't need to make and won't make.
Apple has been trying to sell cd or better downloads since before the launch of iTunes. It has been the record companies who forced them to restrict the quality and the first few years also insisted on DRM.
The moment the record companies change their minds Apple will be offering hi-rez faster than you can drop an ice cream.

May be the Pono campaign was exactly the kick up the arse the RCs needed.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2923
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post

I'm a home recordist, and I assume many on this thread are pros. I am surprised by the cynicism and lack of support of something that just may increase interest in well made recordings (back in the old days of the 70's you really noticed how certain producers and engineers delivered great sonics)
No ****. But it seems much cooler to spout cleverdick stuff than have some hope that something actually good might come out of this.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2924
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
[...]

I heard nobody say anything like this when Beats by Dre came out. In may ways, this type of consumer product is as much a fashion statement, or a personal statement of who someone is, a declaration of their tastes, than anything else. To speculate on it's effect on the music industry is unimportant The only thing to maybe try to gain insight here is what the electronic device consumer is looking for or if there is a changing taste among consumers of these devices.
[bold added]

What Gearslutz were YOU on the last few years? heh

I know I saw a lot of threads on them. But, of course, there weren't as many folks here sticking up for the Beats phones as there are for Pono -- but, then, while I may cringe at the outrageous Pono marketing BS, I still hold hope that the device itself can be a good one, even if I don't buy into quad rates in the slightest. But it's pretty well impossible to convince oneself that the Beats headphone line, with its lightshow earpieces and blingtastic whatnot, has much concern with quality, high fidelity sound.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2925
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
SACD IS 24 bit PCM. DSD is not. You are making a big mistake combining them into one bullet point.
Say what?
Old 12th April 2014
  #2926
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
I have my fingers crossed and hope that the average music consumer, who has been listening to mp3 of various quality, through $10.00 ear buds, of super compressed for volume masters, will hear a well mastered recording at 96/24, through a PONO (or other hi end player), with good ear buds or phones and say "wow" and want it. (Providing it's not exorbitantly expensive)

Heck, these kids demand new iPhones cause the screen got 5mm bigger!

As far as your daughter is concerned, she's not plugging her speakers in because she has to immediately respond to something on Facebook!

I'm a home recordist, and I assume many on this thread are pros. I am surprised by the cynicism and lack of support of something that just may increase interest in well made recordings (back in the old days of the 70's you really noticed how certain producers and engineers delivered great sonics)

I don't think is an argument about who can hear the difference between MP3 and 96/24. It's an argument for better recordings AND better hardware to hear them close to what they sounded like at the mix or master

Call me naive!
[bold added]

Me, I'm a former studio freelancer and former project studio owner (now home recordist) and I've been surprised by the apparently widespread lack of basic technological understanding and rather profound lack of intellectual rigor, not to mention lack of consumer sophistication and apparent inability to sort out obvious marketing BS and dubious claims in the Pono marketing materials.

My despair at the declining ability of so many self-avowed 'recording engineers' to understand even the most basic technical aspects of their craft continues to deepen.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2927
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Say what?
Say... I'm wrong.

I was confused. For the record SACD is DSD. DVD-A is PCM (which is where my confusion came from). I'm leaving my error up there.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2928
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
I'm a home recordist, and I assume many on this thread are pros. I am surprised by the cynicism and lack of support of something that just may increase interest in well made recordings (back in the old days of the 70's you really noticed how certain producers and engineers delivered great sonics)

I don't think is an argument about who can hear the difference between MP3 and 96/24. It's an argument for better recordings AND better hardware to hear them close to what they sounded like at the mix or master

Call me naive!
What good is better if one cannot tell the difference?

What good is a more expensive bottle of wine if one cannot tell the difference?

It's foolish to spend more for a difference that you cannot pick out. If you CAN then go for it!

The cynicism comes from those of us who have been around the block a while and have seen how record companies have sold us the same content multiple times already... and see this as another boldfaced opportunity to make yet more money off the same content.

I think you will find there would be a HUGE level of support if Pono came with an additional requirement/best practices that talk about no brick wall limiting and little additional dynamic compression at the mastering stage. I think we'd all be chomping at the bit for that!! However, I have seen no indication that Pono has that requirement.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2929
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
Hey Bob,

I've meant to ask you this before. Have you ever heard the remaster (for cd, and DVD audio (surround and stereo) called The Marvin Gaye Collection that came out in 2001?

If so, what's your opinion of it?

I think the earlier recordings (the stuff with Tammi Terrell) lose all that great mono mellowness, but the later stuff (What's Going On, Mercy, mercy Me) are revealing. The vocals have lots of room in the soundstage and the bass is just incredible (I can hear lots of nuances)
I don't think Marvin would have approved of the remixes and we know he didn't approve the earlier mixes. Larry Miles' original album mix had some magic nothing before or after really ever achieved.

You can imagine what life has been like having Jamerson and Babbitt as the very first bass players I ever recorded... Still can't believe how I took those guys for granted before moving to California.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2930
Lives for gear
 
Ephi82's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
No ****. But it seems much cooler to spout cleverdick stuff than have some hope that something actually good might come out of this.
Ahh, learned a new audio engineering term today, "cleverdick" !

I like that. Would this be an appropriate use of the term in the world of pro audio engineering?

"PONO will never succeed because it's cleverdick dithering is simply irrelevant compared to other forms of cleverdick dithering."

I love this place!
Old 12th April 2014
  #2931
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Old 12th April 2014
  #2932
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
I dunno. To me, reading that they're implementing it with moving average filters is a real game-changer regarding their claims.

It means they literally cannot implement that at 44.1K, they can begin to implement it on content sampled at 96K and they can get an entirely different implementation if they're given 192K direct-sampled content.

The choice of a moving-average means that they're trading off blatantly supersonic frequencies for better passband behavior. With the same data, they COULD be implementing a regular design that passes 96K in-band, but they're not. They're taking in the extra data, throwing out everything above 25-30K or so, and getting to average the values of lower frequencies across several adjacent samples. That is a clear benefit to linearity in the audio band, measurably so. They are going to have lower noise floor from that calculation, because it's an averaging of sample values. It's also the only way they can get NO ripple… none at all.

You're free to be of the opinion that the information at 24 bit was already so far below any practical noise floor that it wouldn't matter, but their averaging technique still does have that effect of improving the accuracy of the signal… at audio frequencies, like 2K or 60 hz. It's effectively averaging together two or four samples in the space of one, so the data's being used, it's just not being used to deliver 96K signals.

Is that any help? It seems like the Pono guys are not as far off base as was thought. Of course, they may be indicating for MARKETING reasons that the sample rate delivers more high frequencies, because it's too difficult to explain what they're really doing. But it's obvious since they have said what they're really doing.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2933
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
I dunno. To me, reading that they're implementing it with moving average filters is a real game-changer regarding their claims.

It means they literally cannot implement that at 44.1K, they can begin to implement it on content sampled at 96K and they can get an entirely different implementation if they're given 192K direct-sampled content.

The choice of a moving-average means that they're trading off blatantly supersonic frequencies for better passband behavior. With the same data, they COULD be implementing a regular design that passes 96K in-band, but they're not. They're taking in the extra data, throwing out everything above 25-30K or so, and getting to average the values of lower frequencies across several adjacent samples. That is a clear benefit to linearity in the audio band, measurably so. They are going to have lower noise floor from that calculation, because it's an averaging of sample values. It's also the only way they can get NO ripple… none at all.

You're free to be of the opinion that the information at 24 bit was already so far below any practical noise floor that it wouldn't matter, but their averaging technique still does have that effect of improving the accuracy of the signal… at audio frequencies, like 2K or 60 hz. It's effectively averaging together two or four samples in the space of one, so the data's being used, it's just not being used to deliver 96K signals.

Is that any help? It seems like the Pono guys are not as far off base as was thought. Of course, they may be indicating for MARKETING reasons that the sample rate delivers more high frequencies, because it's too difficult to explain what they're really doing. But it's obvious since they have said what they're really doing.
lol.......and not one 'scientist' here could put this together before Chris.....makes me giggle a little.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2934
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Ephi82's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
What good is better if one cannot tell the difference?

What good is a more expensive bottle of wine if one cannot tell the difference?



I think you will find there would be a HUGE level of support if Pono came with an additional requirement/best practices that talk about no brick wall limiting and little additional dynamic compression at the mastering stage. I think we'd all be chomping at the bit for that!! However, I have seen no indication that Pono has that requirement.
You are missing the point! There are few people that can hear the difference between a CD and a FLAC at 96/24. Agreed. I do believe some can hear subtle details provided there is great playback equipment equipment and a great recording with great mastering.

PONO has the promise, and I fully agree, that everybody will hear a difference between an IPOD with cheap earbuds playing a crushed master MP-3 of a song and the same song, "quality mastered", at 96/24 through the Pono and a set of good buds or phones.

Second, PONO's spokesperson (Young) has said that PONO is going to make available recordings to its customers that have no brick wall limiting and little additional dynamic compression at the mastering stage.

By the way, being an open platform, the consumer can seek out recordings in other formats that are made to the same standards.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2935
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paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
I dunno. To me, reading that they're implementing it with moving average filters is a real game-changer regarding their claims.
to qualify, are you saying that it necessitates a new filter design to be able to hear the differences?
Old 12th April 2014
  #2936
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
PONO has the promise, and I fully agree, that everybody will hear a difference between an IPOD with cheap earbuds playing a crushed master MP-3 of a song and the same song, "quality mastered", at 96/24 through the Pono and a set of good buds or phones.
What remains to be seen is whether anyone will care.

Quote:
Second, PONO's spokesperson (Young) has said that PONO is going to make available recordings to its customers that have no brick wall limiting and little additional dynamic compression at the mastering stage.
I will believe it when I see it. It's not always easy to go back to the masters like that.

The point is there are too many unknowns to get excited about. AND those of us who have done a/b/x testing of 96/24 vs. 44/16 vs. 320kbps MP3 even on our high quality studio chains have a pretty strong opinion on whether most people will be able to tell the difference... since we can't for the most part.

Please try yourself to do an a/b/x test. Grab a 96/24 file you know well. Use high quality sample rate conversion to 44/16, the convert back to 96/24. This will effectively remove all higher frequencies and lower the bit depth. Be sure your system is running at 96/24. Then run an a/b/x test yourself. Please report back! The more data the better.
Old 12th April 2014
  #2937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
lol.......and not one 'scientist' here could put this together before Chris.....makes me giggle a little.
"Yeah!"

Quote:
It ain't cool to be no turkey so close to Thanksgiving
"Yeah!"

Old 12th April 2014
  #2938
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Ephi82's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I don't think Marvin would have approved of the remixes and we know he didn't approve the earlier mixes. Larry Miles' original album mix had some magic nothing before or after really ever achieved.

You can imagine what life has been like having Jamerson and Babbitt as the very first bass players I ever recorded... Still can't believe how I took those guys for granted before moving to California.
Great bass players are always a bitch to find, and those guys were two of the greatest!

I assume the Larry Miles mixes are what we heard on the radio back in the day (and on vinyl)?
Old 12th April 2014
  #2939
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
lol.......and not one 'scientist' here could put this together before Chris.....makes me giggle a little.
I admit I don't understand it... I'd love for someone else to confirm, as it sounds counterintuitive.

But it's interesting that everyone else disagrees with him so far... people like Dan Lavry and other audio experts. But... all it takes is one guy on the internets and you're convinced?!?
Old 12th April 2014
  #2940
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I admit I don't understand it... I'd love for someone else to confirm, as it sounds counterintuitive.

But it's interesting that everyone else disagrees with him so far... people like Dan Lavry and other audio experts. But... all it takes is one guy on the internets and you're convinced?!?
I am not convinced. I have hope. I had hope this Pono initiative would turn out a result of positive nature for audio from the beginning. Chris just pulled out some stuff to make that seem more likely, making me smile. I still have hope, regardless of whether what Chris is saying is applicable here or not. All you lot still have your cynicism. Be like that. Time will tell how this turns out. Meanwhile I have hope and you have doubt. Enjoy your doubt.
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